Understanding apocalyptic language...

[zeke]

I think SC is bang-on correct in much of his analysis - there is loads of Biblical evidence to suggest that the "futurist" position is basically incorrect.

Is SC "bang-on correct" or is the Secord Coming of Christ yet future?. Is the Last Trump yet to sound? Have the Dead in Christ come forth from the grave at the end of time yet? What exactly is the "futurist" position that you claim is incorrect?

 

[Stormcrow]

Preterists who fail to understand these truths (Stormcrow) have been mislead by those blind teachers who lead the blind.

People who can't defend their own point of view are quick to change the subject, smear their opponents, and ignore the wealth of material arrayed against them. They would rather make this discussion about strawmen (Preterism) or people (like me) than deal with the facts as presented.

Evasion and misdirection are what these people prefer over thoughtful discussion.

The Secord Coming of Christ has not taken place yet.

Clearly misunderstands what the "second coming of Christ" meant to the apostles, who all wrote - when they wrote of it - that it would happen while some of them still lived.

No answer for the apostolic view other than to ignore it.

The Last Trump is yet to sound.

The "last trump" is one of those things Christ Himself said would happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days", clearly juxtaposing it with the events of 9th Av, 70 AD.

No argument here to support the quoted view other than to ignore Christ's words (at best) or imply He is a liar (at worst.)

The Dead in Christ coming forth from the grave at the end of time is yet future.

Ignores Matthew 27:52-53.

The Bible does not teach the error of preterism - and never has.

Preterism isn't the issue here and never has been. Those who want to make it about Preterism do so because they can't defend their own views and would rather attack strawmen.

 

[Stormcrow]

But, unlike SC (apparently - SC, correct me if I misrepresent you), I believe Jesus will come again a second time and that some prophecies remain unfulfilled at this present time

Name them and we'll discuss them.

 

[zeke]

Preterism isn't the issue here and never has been.

The error of preterism is the issue my friend - the preterism you teach is not a straw-man, it non-biblical dogma that should be rejected. You have never addressed the truth presented in the “Olivet Discourse”. Why? Jesus was asked three separate questions. Your confusion is based on your misunderstanding of those questions.

If 1Th 4:15-17 has already been fulfilled as you claim - when and where was it fulfilled in 70 AD? When did the Lord descend from heaven with a shout? When did the dead in Christ rise to meet Jesus in the air? When were those who "live and remain" caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord? Please be specific with your answers.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:15-17 KJV)​

The truth remains - the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the Dead are yet future. The Bible doesn't teach the error of Preterism.

 

[Stormcrow]

Already addressed here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42271&p=639272&viewfull=1#post639272

here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42271&p=640380&viewfull=1#post640380

here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42271&p=640457&viewfull=1#post640457

here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42271&p=640461&viewfull=1#post640461

and here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42271&p=640475&viewfull=1#post640475

Not my words. Christ's. I suggest anyone incapable of seeing the ramifications of His words ask Him about them. I've done my best.

People can continue to wring their hands over "preterism" all they want, while quoting one or two verses out of context to try to knock that strawman down, but - in the end - it's really Christ's words and the words of the prophets they don't understand.

Preterism isn't the issue here. Evangelical ignorance of ancient Judaism is.

 

[zeke]

Preterism isn't the issue here. Evangelical ignorance of ancient Judaism is.

You can run - you can dance but you cannot explain God's word through the glasses of Preterism my friend and you have yet to answer the questions. Why?

Second request: If 1Th 4:15-17 has already been fulfilled as you claim - when and where was it fulfilled in 70 AD? When did the Lord descend from heaven with a shout? When did the dead in Christ rise to meet Jesus in the air? Where is it recorded in the NT that those who "live and remain" were ever "caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord"? Give us some Scripture to support that which cannot be supported. Please be specific with your answers or just admit the obvious - your error cannot be defended via Holy Writ.

Not my words. Christ's. I suggest anyone incapable of seeing the ramifications of His words ask Him about them. I've done my best.

Jesus did not teach your dogma of preterism - the writers of the NT did not teach your dogma of preterism. Your dogma remains defeated by God's word. You simply rely on evasion and misdirection over the 'defense' of your error. Your dilemma has been noted.

 

[jasoncran]

one cant place jesus in our dogmas and expect it to all fit in. im not a futurist, nor do i have all the answers. the ressurection spoken by the apostle hasnt happened yet. we are awaiting the redemption produce begun at the cross to be completed when the LORD physically returns.

 

[Stormcrow]

You can run - you can dance but you cannot explain God's word through the glasses of Preterism my friend and you have yet to answer the questions. Why?

Second request: If 1Th 4:15-17 has already been fulfilled as you claim - when and where was it fulfilled in 70 AD? When did the Lord descend from heaven with a shout? When did the dead in Christ rise to meet Jesus in the air? Where is it recorded in the NT that those who "live and remain" were ever "caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord"? Give us some Scripture to support that which cannot be supported. Please be specific with your answers or just admit the obvious - your error cannot be defended via Holy Writ.


Jesus did not teach your dogma of preterism - the writers of the NT did not teach your dogma of preterism. Your dogma remains defeated by God's word. You simply rely on evasion and misdirection over the 'defense' of your error. Your dilemma has been noted.

Beside the fact that I've already addressed your "issues" in this and other threads, and beside the fact that your repeated appeal to a single verse proves the point I made about you here and here, and beside the fact that you keep making claims with no scholarship or support to back them up, I'll simply point you to the ToS and suggest you start your own thread if you want to discuss your issues further.

This topic is - and remains - "Understanding apocalyptic language...".

If you can't stay on topic, please feel free to move along.

 

[zeke]

Beside the fact that I've already addressed your "issues" in this and other threads, and beside the fact that your repeated appeal to a single verse proves the point I made about you here and here, and beside the fact that you keep making claims with no scholarship or support to back them up, I'll simply point you to the ToS and suggest you start your own thread if you want to discuss your issues further.

This topic is - and remains - "Understanding apocalyptic language...".

But we are discussing "apocalyptic language" and you appear to be unable to support your notion. I am simply asking you to provide (specially) where you think you see the fulfillment of 1Th 4:15-17 (third request). Please provide chapter/verse where the Lord has already descended from heaven with a shout? Where and when (exactly) were the dead in Christ bodily resurrected to meet Jesus in the air in 70 AD? Where is it recorded in the NT that those who were "alive and remained" at His second coming were ever "caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord"? You can't do that can you?

If you think you can then give us some real Scripture to actually support your imagined dogma. Don't provide passage that have nothing to do with those events and then waive your hands in the air claiming you have 'proven' the error of preterism. That's not the way it works in the real world. Remember, I have given you the out by admitting you do not have scriptural support but you chose not to take that option. What are you going to do now?

 

[Drew]

Is SC "bang-on correct" or is the Secord Coming of Christ yet future?. Is the Last Trump yet to sound? Have the Dead in Christ come forth from the grave at the end of time yet? What exactly is the "futurist" position that you claim is incorrect?

I believe that Jesus will return again, and at that time the dead will be raised.

As I thought I implied, I do not share SC's view, as I understand it, at every point.

But I certainly agree with his/her general assertion about apocalyptic language - it is not to taken literally: such language is used metaphorically to refer to events in the present world.

And I believe SC and I agree that basically that at least most of Jesus' "apocalyptic" statements referred to the end of the age that came about in 70 AD.

 

[Drew]

Name them and we'll discuss them.

I believe that 1 Corinthians 15 remains in the future. Now, of course, this is not something that Jesus said, but I do believe that Paul is referring to a future return of Jesus that has not happened yet.

 

[zeke]

I believe that Jesus will return again, and at that time the dead will be raised.

As I thought I implied, I do not share SC's view, as I understand it, at every point.

But I certainly agree with his/her general assertion about apocalyptic language - it is not to taken literally: such language is used metaphorically to refer to events in the present world.

And I believe SC and I agree that basically that at least most of Jesus' "apocalyptic" statements referred to the end of the age that came about in 70 AD.

But who on this thread claims that apocalyptic language is not used metaphorically? And you didn't answer the question - what exactly is the "futurist" position that you claim is incorrect? Is it the same 'futurist' position that SC argues against but has never defined?

 

[zeke]

I believe that 1 Corinthians 15 remains in the future.

Does that make you a 'futurist"? I think it does in SC's vernacular?

 

[Stormcrow]

Drew...

Zeke's questions have all been addressed. This is nothing more than a tactic he uses to derail threads and take them off-topic. The scholarship is there for he - and others - to reread as often as they like. I'm through with him.

Now, as to the issue you've raised relating to I Corinthians 15: Let's break it down and see if we can understand what Paul is talking about here.

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep [Matthew 16:28], but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.1 Corinthians 15:52-53 (NASB)

We can't take this one passage out of context and build an entire dogma out of it as some have done. See the words "last trumpet?" Let's look at it in context:

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:29-31 (NASB)

Is there more than one "last trumpet?" The obvious answer is "no." There is only one "last trumpet", and - as you can see here in Matthew 24:31, the "last trumpet" sounds "immediately after the tribulation of those days."

If we remember that this "great tribulation" is the judgment of Jerusalem that brings to an end the Old Covenant religious system the Jews knew for more than 1,000 years, then we have to understand everything else surrounding it in these terms. So when Christ says this:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 (NASB)

Included in "all these things" is the statement He just made to them three verses before! This is the context in which Paul's words in Thessalonians and Corinthians must be viewed. Paul would not write something that contradicts Christ!

So, given that Paul's words have to be interpreted in the light of Christ's words - and not the other way around - we need to put Paul's words into the same perspective we see Christ's and the prophets: through the lens of Jewish prophecy.

I'll deal more with this later.

 

[zeke]

Zeke's questions have all been addressed. This is nothing more than a tactic he uses to derail threads and take them off-topic. The scholarship is there for he - and others - to reread as often as they like. I'm through with him.

Typical preterist cop out folks. If they can't defend their error they simply run away. Stormcrow is no exception - he can't provide chapter/verse where the Lord has already descended from heaven with a shout because it is yet future. Stormcrow can't provide where and when the dead in Christ were bodily resurrected to meet Jesus in the air in 70 AD because it didn't happen - it is yet future. Stormcrow cannot demonstrate where the NT records that those who were in Christ in 70 AD were "caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord" because that event has not taken place yet. His preterist dogma remains what it has always been - non-biblical revisionism that should be rejected by all who seek the truth.

Christians still wait patiently for the "coming of the Lord" at the last trump when "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first..."

Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord...(Jas 5:7 KJV)​

 

[WIP]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Drew]

But who on this thread claims that apocalyptic language is not used metaphorically? And you didn't answer the question - what exactly is the "futurist" position that you claim is incorrect? Is it the same 'futurist' position that SC argues against but has never defined?

Here are some examples of where I believe the "futurist" position is mistaken. Now, if I misrepresent the "futurist" position, please let me know:

1. Rapture: I believe there will be no "rapture" event as commonly understood. The texts that "futurists" have taken to refer to a physical rapture actually denote events back in the first century;

2. Matthew 24, at least up to verse 42: I believe that futurists are wrong in not taking Jesus at His word (as I see it, anyway) to the effect that all the stuff Jesus describes will be accomplished within a literal generation.

 

[zeke]

Here are some examples of where I believe the "futurist" position is mistaken. Now, if I misrepresent the "futurist" position, please let me know:

1. Rapture: I believe there will be no "rapture" event as commonly understood. The texts that "futurists" have taken to refer to a physical rapture actually denote events back in the first century;

2. Matthew 24, at least up to verse 42: I believe that futurists are wrong in not taking Jesus at His word (as I see it, anyway) to the effect that all the stuff Jesus describes will be accomplished within a literal generation.

Can you please provide a little more detail. What do you mean by -- "rapture" event as commonly understood? What do you mean by 'commonly understood' And what part of Matt 24 do you think is yet future?

 

[Sparkey]

An apocalypse (Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis; "lifting of the veil" or "revelation") is a disclosure of something hidden. To pretend that it doesn't reveal something and must be regarded as poetic language style and dismissed is silly.

Prophecy relates to future events. The Lord has shown the end from the beginning. Consider Eve. She heard the judgment of the Lord and the curse that was given to the serpent so when she give birth her exclaimation was, "I have gotten a Man, even Yahweh!" (Rotherham Emphasized Bible) She expected immediate fulfillment of prophecy even in her lifetime. But it wasn't until the birth of Christ through Mary that Eve's expectation of prophecy was fulfilled and the savior that was promised to Eve's seed was born.

There were aspects of the prophecy that were indeed fulfilled in Eve's lifetime but ultimately the prophecy was for the future. Eve saw how it would happen but wasn't there when the prophecy was ultimately fulfilled. The same is true for other prophetic language. They are fulfilled in part but point to an ultimate end. Saying that the earth isn't reserved for destruction, won't be burned with a fervent heat is contrary to the what the bible clearly states is the case.

There are still prophecies that have not been realized. Every enemy (the last being death) will be defeated and placed under the foot of Jesus. We are told that the devil will be cast out of heaven. We are told (as zeke has pointed out) that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and shall meet Jesus in the air. We are told that Jesus will return and will bring reward for our actions with him.

God has declared, "As I live, my Glory shall fill all heaven and all earth." The Apocalypse (Revelation) of Jesus given to the Apostle John on the isle of Patmos describes the future church, adorned as a bride as well as the new earth, and speaks of a 1,000 year period where Jesus will reign.

Revelation 20:6 says, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The arch adversary, (called the 'dragon' and 'the devil' and 'satan') will be bound for a thousand years. (Revelation 20:2) Revelation 20:6 speaks of a resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ. So does the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." Paul then quickly brings his argument to its final conclusion by saying, " Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1st Corintihans 15 contains some very potent prophecy especially in verse 26: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

 

[Drew]

Does that make you a 'futurist"? I think it does in SC's vernacular?

Well, I am a "partial futurist". I think its clear that my position lies between that of SC and that of others like you and zinc.

In short, I believe that when Jesus spoke of the "end of the age" in Matthew 24, he was speaking of an age that would end in the first century. In this respect, I believe, SC and I are in agreement.

However, unlike SC seemingly, I believe that 1 Corinthians 15 lies in the future.

However, I entirely embrace SC's argument re "apocolyptic language" and I suggest that a misreading of the such language - taking it too literally - is behind what I see as the error of the futurist who sees, for example, all of Matthew 24 as lying in the future.