Growth Understanding Baptism ?

[Jim Parker]

Gal: 3
23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster


Rom.115
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work

Eph:2


7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Col: 2
8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

Instead of just throwing scripture at me, please tell me in your own words, what you understand those scriptures to mean.

You may have noticed that different people reading the same scriptures occasionally come to different conclusions as to what the scripture means.

By just cutting and pasting verses, you tell me nothing of what you think.


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi eddif, The book of Hebrews was written to the Jew specifically. These who are written to were Jews who believed the Gospel of God in Jesus The Christ.

Then why was it included in the CHRISTIAN New Testament for which the cannon was not set until the 4th century when the vast majority of the church was gentile? (like; 99%)

All of the Scripture references in Hebrews are from the OT Torah, and the prophets in which the Jew had lived under all their lifetime.

ALL of the scriptures quoted in the entire NT are from the OT. Hebrews is not unique.

Your argument is based on false premises.

The book of Hebrews is instructive for both Jews AND Gentiles. It is not "another Gospel for Jews only."

iakov the fool

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 1:23 KJV
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Justa throwing scripture.

eddif

 

[brother Paul]

I Corinthians 1:23 KJV
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Justa throwing scripture.

eddif

Great passage, I love this one. But how do you see it as related to the topic at hand?

 

[eddif]

Great passage, I love this one. But how do you see it as related to the topic at hand?

A real good explanation of baptism will probably come from the least likely source.

I totally (for instance) have my mind at a loss when I read:
I Corinthians 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Baptized in the sea? They were dry shod with the water standing up off in the distance. How is my redneck brain going to understand that?

Baptized in the cloud? Their source of water was from the struck rock mostly, and not from a cloud.

Intelligence is getting me nowhere in a hurry.

The Egyptians were immersed (?).

eddif

 

[eddif]

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Now I do not plan to rush to grams church for instruction, but I do plan to wrap my feeble redneck mind around all this.

Now we switch from baptism to planting, in one verse. I have got to chuckle every time grams says "no water".

eddif

 

[brother Paul]

Baptized in the sea? They were dry shod with the water standing up off in the distance. How is my redneck brain going to understand that?

There was shed blood to protect them from the angel of death...then they passed through the waters....by this they entered into a New Life

Baptized in the cloud? Their source of water was from the struck rock mostly, and not from a cloud.

Immersed in the cloud simply means they were embraced and protected while in the cloud...they were thus saved from the approach of the cause of their bondage

Both of these are types of our relation to Christ

Simply put Christ our Passover is slain and His blood protects us from judgment (the wages of sin) then we pass through the water, and we enter a new life

Christ is like unto the cloud in that we who are "in Him" are saved from our bonage (He who the Son sets free is free indeed)

Paul

 

[grams]

What do we not understand in that paragraph? That it somehow means we are so complete in him that we don't have to do what he commands.

Since you are 'complete in him', as you surely are if one is born again, does that mean you can not go to church? Not pray? Not read your Bible? Not be generous and helpful and compassionate? Not support ministries with your time, talent, and treasure? Not walk in your gift?

If you did not do those things--because you are 'complete in him'--actually, we may have no choice but to conclude that you really are not 'complete in him', as evidenced by your lack of obedience. Obedience is the evidence of salvation, just as disobedience is evidence of not being saved.

That's what you do not understand in that paragraph.
****************************************************************************************************

I guess you are not reading the scriptures I am posting ? Or do not understand them ?

If I am complete in HIM - What do you suppose that means ?

First I understand I have it all !

Upon belief ! I will do and be what GOD wants me to do .
I will help when possible .....
I will treat others as I want them to treat me.
But most of all ..............

I know I am a Gentile and belong in this time not back in time....

We are saved by Grace !

What do you supposed the Cross is all about ???????????? That changed a lot !

The whole bible is for us.......... BUT NOT TO US !

There is a time PAST

BUT NOW

AGES TO COME

Things have changed and you are not seeming to get this..........

We are Gentiles - Under Grace

 

[grams]

Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth."(2 Tim. 2.15)

· Have you ever wondered why today's Christians can eat pork even though in the Old Testament men were forbidden to do so?

· Or, do you know people (or, perhaps yourself) who shun Christianity because Christians can't seem to agree on anything?

· And what about all those contractions in the Bible?



These are all valid concerns, but when a person begins to "rightly divide" the word of truth, as admonished by Paul to Timothy, these seeming difficulties and disputations are resolved. To "rightly divide" means that God has dealt with mankind at different times with different expectations from him. Although it is profitable for us to read the entire Bible (2Tim.3:16), it is imperative that we understand which part of the Bible is intended primarily for us in this time of Grace. The following excerpt from the book "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam explains:

"If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly into one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must rightly divide the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail
to him.

It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.

While I am reading mail addressed personally to me, a friend may hand me, for my interest or information, mail addressed to him. His mail and mine may all prove informative and profitable, but I must still be careful not to confuse the two, expecting to receive things promised to him or carrying out instructions addressed to him.

Thus, all the Bible is for us, but it is not all addressed to us or written about us, and if we would really understand and enjoy it; if we would really know how to use it effectively in service for Christ, we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why" (p.20).



In every dispensation, righteousness before God has always been achieved by believing what God has said and acting upon it. For example, the law required every male child to be circumcised, but that is not God's requirement today.

The LAW says: And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Gen. 17:14.

But GRACE says: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands...Col. 2:10,11.



There were also many dietary laws, and one in particular many people remember is the prohibition not to eat pork. But under the dispensation of Grace, we are not under those prohibitions.

The LAW says: And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass. Deut. 14:8

But GRACE says: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1Tim: 4:4



And the Sabbath day. In our day of grace, one day is like unto another. All are to be lived to the glory of God.

The Law says: Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God...Ex. 20:8,10.

But GRACE says: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days... Col.2:16,17


And because of the finished work of Jesus Christ at the Cross, we are no longer under any provision of the law for the forgiveness of sin.

The Law says: And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. (Matt. 6:12) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matt. 6:14,15.

But GRACE says: And ye be kind one to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Eph. 4.32.


The ultimate example of the difference between law and grace is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. The law required annual blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, which we now understand were but a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice Christ Jesus would make for the complete payment for all of our sins.

The Law says: The blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifiethto the purifying of the flesh. Heb. 9:13

But GRACE says: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Romans 10:4)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8,9)


Where the dispensation of the law was entrusted to Moses (John 1:17), the dispensation of the grace of God was entrusted to Paul. Why is understanding this so important? Because it is by this message of grace, dispensed by Paul, that God will judge us. Remember, righteousness comes by believing what God says (i.e., what God is saying to us in this age of Grace) and acting on it. That is what faith is: believing God; trusting Him and His Word. Paul says in Romans 2:16:

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY Gospel.


Paul tells us that he was appointed by God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the Apostle of the Gentiles,..." (Ro. 11:13) and that his message was revealed to him directly by Jesus Christ:

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached to of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal.1:11,12)


How then does Paul's gospel differ? Pastor Thomas Brusha, in his booklet "Dictionary of the Gospel" gives a clear explanation:

God promised in the Old Testament to set up a Kingdom here on earth through the nation Israel, in which Christ would reign as King! Christ was here; and the good news proclaimed was that the Kingdom was at hand. In Matthew 10:7 we find this to be the same gospel the Twelve Apostles were sent to preach. Also, in Matthew 10:5,6 we learn that this gospel was good news for the Nation of Israel. It is amazing, yet true, that after the Twelve Apostles had been preaching this gospel now, for some time, they still did not know about Christ's purpose to go to the Cross and die for their sins. We know this is true because when Christ began later to tell his Apostles that he was going to Jerusalem to die, they didn't believe him, nor did they understand what he was talking about. The reason being, they were preaching the good news about the Kingdom. They expected Christ to establish Israel's Kingdom and to take the throne as their King - see Matthew 16:21,22; Luke 18:31-34: and Luke 19:11.


How then, could the twelve Apostles have preached the same gospel the Apostle Paul later preached, when they did not know or understand anything about the Cross at that time? Paul preached :

"THE CROSS" and "CHRIST CRUCIFIED (1 Corinthians 1:18,23)

The point is this. The gospel that the Twelve Apostles preached during the earthly ministry of Christ is not the same gospel the Apostle Paul was sent to preach later. According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel Paul preached was the GOOD NEWS of the DEATH, BURIAL, and RESURRECTION of Christ FOR OUR SINS.

Paul tells us in Galatians 1:11,12 where his gospel originated. It was after the resurrection and ascension that the Lord Jesus Christ revealed to the Apostle Paul all that was accomplished on the Cross. In acts 20:24 Paul calls this message "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD." In Galatians 2:1,2 we see that this gospel is intended for the Gentiles as well as the Jews; and in Galatians 2:6-10 we find that the Twelve Apostles learned of this gospel from Paul.

In this present age of "GRACE", God has set Israel as a nation aside, and the Kingdom promised to them has been postponed until a future time. Therefore the "GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM" is NOT God's message of good news for today, but rather the good news of how the Cross saves Sinners of all nationalities. This is God's message for today! (pp6-8).


The following books are recommended:

"Dictionary of the Gospel" by Thomas Bruscha
"Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam
"The Dispensations" by Hazel I. Brown

 

[grams]

Tom Bruscha - Grace Bible Church

BAPTISM and the Nation of Israel



Numbers 4:1 “And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron saying, Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers, from thirty years old and upward even up to fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation. This shall be the service of the sons of Kohath.”

This chapter takes all of Aaron’s sons and tells them what responsibilities they have in the Priesthood; the responsibilities that each department will to have to do; and notice that their service for God as a Priest cannot begin until they are thirty years old and are to retire when they are fifty years old. Between 30 and 50 is when a Priest can function in the office of Priest.

Luke 3:21 “Now when all the people were baptised, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptised, and praying, the heaven was opened and the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and the voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in whom I am well pleased. And Jesus himself began to be thirty years of age, being as was supposed….” and he goes through his genealogy.

Now you know Luke tells us that Jesus Christ was baptized “when he began to be thirty years of age”. That must have been right at his thirtieth birthday for him to say it that way. And why would Luke tell us what age Jesus Christ was when he was baptised? Also, at the beginning of verse 21 it says, “Now when all the people were baptised..” All the people here is the nation of Israel and John the Baptist was baptizing the nation of Israel. (By the way, John the Baptist is the son of a priest.) He’s baptizing the nation of Israel and among those that are being baptised in Israel is Jesus Christ. And, Jesus Christ is thirty years of age.

Now we know something about the age thirty don’t we? Look back at Exodus 29:1, “ And this is the thing that thou shalt do unto them to hallow them, to minister unto me in the priest’s office…” That is, here’s how you’re going to consecrate a priest. Here’s what has to happen before they’re initiated into the priesthood:

“…Take one young bullock, and two rams without blemish, And unleavened bread, and cakes unleavened tempered with oil, and wafers unleavened anointed with oil: of wheaten flour shalt thou make them. And thou shalt put them into one basket, and bring them in the basket , with the bullock and the two rams. And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.”

Now ultimately this bullock and all this meat offering they’re putting together is going to be burnt as a sacrifice. When they were told there to take that bullock and the two rams did you notice it said without blemish? Remember when Jesus Christ was baptized what God the Father announced? This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. There’s no blemish in Jesus Christ. Jesus represents all those sacrifices. He doesn’t need a sacrifice on his behalf as an offer to be a priest because he has no blemish. God looks down and says, this is my beloved son in whom I’m well pleased. He didn’t say that about anyone else in the Bible. This sacrifice in Exodus 29 is a type of the Lord Jesus Christ. It then says in verse 4 to take Aaron and his sons and bring them to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and “shalt wash them with water”. They are to be taken before everybody, with all the congregation in attendance, and before they can enter in, Aaron and his sons are to be washed with water. That’s water baptism in the old testament.

Now why are they washing them with water? This is part of the anointing of them for the office of a priest! Jesus Christ was baptised when he was thirty years old. You know why he was baptised? Because he became Israel’s high priest. He’s going to be the means by which Israel has a way unto God. The Book of Hebrews talks about Jesus Christ being their high priest. Christ means anointed one: the anointed prophet; priest, and king of the nation of Israel. And to be their priest, at thirty years old he stands at the door of the congregation, and he’s washed with water before all the people.

You know, people say we ought to be water baptised, because Jesus was. Why? Do you want to be a priest? And why was all the nation of Israel being baptised? Remember the covenant God made with the nation of Israel: “Ye shall be a kingdom of Priests” Exodus 19:6. That’s why water baptism belongs to the nation of Israel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am complete in Jesus ! I understand , I need not do works............

You do not need to do works in order to be justified. But you most certainly do need to do works to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Not because works in and of themselves have power to save, or to justify, but because works are the evidence of justification through faith in God's forgiveness that Christ will be looking for on the Day of Judgment.

This is the great deception presently gripping the Protestant Church. It says once you are born again by faith, all by itself, you do not have to lift a finger to do anything and you will still be saved on the Day of Wrath. But in reality, what the 'do nothing' Christian is really showing is they have shrunk back into unbelief and if they persist in it and God turns them over to it they will be cast away on the Day of Wrath.

The person who says they believe, but who does not obey Christ may well simply be showing themselves to not really believe at all. You need to know that for yourself. That's why we are exhorted to "Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God" (Philippians 2:14-15 NASB).

Prove yourself to be a born again child of God: Start by obeying Christ's command to be water baptized. Not in order to be justified, but to show the world you are. Stop grumbling and disputing....DO IT!

 

[JLB]

You know, people say we ought to be water baptised, because Jesus was. Why? Do you want to be a priest?

We are priest's in God's kingdom.

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ... 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
1 Peter 2:4-5,9-10


JLB

 

[grams]

JLB say's.........
grams said: ↑
You know, people say we ought to be water baptised, because Jesus was. Why? Do you want to be a priest?
Click to expand...
We are priest's in God's kingdom.


We are in the world now / Not the Kingdom at this time........

Please understand :
2Tim.
2:
15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[grams]

grams said: ↑
I am complete in Jesus ! I understand , I need not do works............
Click to expand...
You do not need to do works in order to be justified. But you most certainly do need to do works to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Not because works in and of themselves have power to save, or to justify, but because works are the evidence of justification through faith in God's forgiveness that Christ will be looking for on the Day of Judgment.

This is the great deception presently gripping the Protestant Church. It says once you are born again by faith, all by itself, you do not have to lift a finger to do anything and you will still be saved on the Day of Wrath. But in reality, what the 'do nothing' Christian is really showing is they have shrunk back into unbelief and if they persist in it and God turns them over to it they will be cast away on the Day of Wrath.

The person who says they believe, but who does not obey Christ may well simply be showing themselves to not really believe at all. You need to know that for yourself. That's why we are exhorted to "Do all things without grumbling or disputing; so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God" (Philippians 2:14-15 NASB).

Prove yourself to be a born again child of God: Start by obeying Christ's command to be water baptized. Not in order to be justified, but to show the world you are. Stop grumbling and disputing....DO IT!

Psalm 50:15 NASB
Jethro Bodine, 48 minutes ago Report

**********************************************************************************


So you are saying that if I get Baptized it will change me ? ??? ?

I don't think so ............! Understanding Gods word and doing what is required in this time will !
If I believe and understand ! That we are not the Jews - Israel.......... Time Past

But now ............. God has changed things for us gentiles in the time of Grace.......

What do you suppose Grace is for and being a gentile.......... And what did the cross do for us.

Why did JESUS suffer so much for us ? If not to change things? Please think on this , so many people
do not look deep into some parts of the bible and now things changed.....


7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.


1c.
14
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

[JLB]

But now ............. God has changed things for us gentiles in the time of Grace.......

What do you suppose Grace is for and being a gentile.......... And what did the cross do for us.

The cross was for the Jew first, then the gentile, as we have been grafted in the commonwealth of Israel.

that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 26:23

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.Romans 1:16

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:11-13

The New Covenant, is not some brand new different Covenant for Gentiles, but is the same Covenant The Lord made with Abraham.

That is why we are called Abraham's sons.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Galatians 3:7



JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

A real good explanation of baptism will probably come from the least likely source.

I totally (for instance) have my mind at a loss when I read:
I Corinthians 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Baptized in the sea? They were dry shod with the water standing up off in the distance. How is my redneck brain going to understand that?

Baptized in the cloud? Their source of water was from the struck rock mostly, and not from a cloud.

Intelligence is getting me nowhere in a hurry.

The Egyptians were immersed (?).

eddif

eddif, it is written for the Spiritual man, and therefore is a foreign language to the natural man. (1 Cor. 1: 18 thru 2: 1-16)

 

[eddif]

grams

You have finally been vocal enough for me to hear you better. How to organize a response is going to be a time consuming job.

I have no idea you will have any idea what I wil be saying. I think you are worth the effort. Right now it will take a miracle for eddif to start in the right place. Some of my previous comments were on track - (IMHO), but were not tied in correctly.

I will make actual comments later.

eddif

 

[grams]

Gal3
25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

INTO CHRIST
Some do not understand that part........ " No Water"
[
24


[Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.]

 

[grams]

I went looking this all up on water Baptizing and found this ......
It is not just our church I found even more.........................


Conclusion
Baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is the initiatory sign and seal into the covenant of grace. As circumcision referred to the cutting away of sin and to a change of heart (Deut. 10:16, 30:6, Jer. 4:4, 9:25, 26, Ezk.44:7, 9), baptism refers to the washing away of sin (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21, Tit. 3:5) and to spiritual renewal (Rom. 6:4, Col. 2:11-12). The circumcision of the heart is signified by the circumcision of the flesh, that is, baptism (Col. 2:11-12).

One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ? If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved. If the answer is no, then why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you are saying that if I get Baptized it will change me ? ??? ?

It won't change you in regard to your legal status before God. That is based solely upon you having your sins forgiven through your faith in that forgiveness. It may change you in regard to being a bold witness for Christ.

I don't think so ............! Understanding Gods word and doing what is required in this time will !
If I believe and understand ! That we are not the Jews - Israel.......... Time Past

We see the gentiles being water baptized well into the beginning of the church in Paul's missionary journeys in the book of Acts. It was not a Jewish thing. It's a church thing. Christ commanded that the nations (the gentiles) be water baptized.

Why did JESUS suffer so much for us ? If not to change things? Please think on this , so many people
do not look deep into some parts of the bible and now things changed.....

Baptism would have had to be for justification in order for your argument mean anything. Water baptism was never something you did to get justified. The Catholic Church is the one who later started to tell people that.

One last thought: If someone maintains that baptism is necessary for salvation, is he adding a work, his own, to the finished work of Christ?

It's only necessary for salvation (not justification) the way 'do not murder' is necessary for salvation. When a person does not murder, or steal, or whatever, they are not adding a work to Christ's work in order to justify themselves as you are suggesting. They are operating in the expected and obligatory way that born again new creations in Christ act--that is, they obey what he commands. And water baptism is one of those commands, for Jew and gentile alike.

If the answer is yes, then that person would be in terrible risk of not being saved.

I suggest to you that it if the answer is 'no', that is the person who is in terrible risk of not being saved. Their disobedience to Christ's command possibly signifying that they do not have the justifying/ saving faith that changes people into obedient people.

why is baptism maintained as being necessary the same way as the Jews maintained that works were necessary?

Why? As a mark of the obedience that signifies you as a true believer. The person who does not get water baptized may well be doing it because they haven't really been justified by faith in Christ. They need to know this, not be falsely assured that their disobedience does not matter toward their salvation. Then when they can see for themselves that they really don't believe in the forgiveness of God they can get that forgiveness of God and start producing works of obedience so they can be saved on the Day of Wrath when Christ looks for works produced by love for, and faith in him to determine who goes to the left and who goes to the right (Matthew 25:31-46).