Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[LeviR]

Right that was my explanation.

Now if you can come up with Old Testament scriptures that say Yeshua did this and Yeshua did that and Yahweh and Yeshua were talking to each other, then we can talk about it. Do you think Yeshua was an undercover God?…..Maybe He was hiding? Maybe Yahweh did not know He was there?

They’ll point to certain scripture like this one and say Jesus is God.

Psa 45:6 - Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Psa 45:7 - You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Then they develop all this philosophical mumbo jumbo about one ousia and three hypostasis and homoousian and very God of very God begotten from eternity and begotten not made etc.

Lol

 

[Butch5]

They’ll point to certain scripture like this one and say Jesus is God.

Psa 45:6 - Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Psa 45:7 - You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

Then they develop all this philosophical mumbo jumbo about one ousia and three hypostasis and homoousian and very God of very God begotten from eternity and begotten not made etc.

Lol

What do you make of that passage?

 

[LeviR]

What do you make of that passage?

One God is speaking to another God. But one God is the God of the other.But there is only one true God.,the Father.
Therefore, the Father is speaking to his only begotten son whom he refers to as Himself.

 

[Butch5]

One God is speaking to another God. But one God is the God of the other.But there is only one true God.,the Father.
Therefore, the Father is speaking to his only begotten son whom he refers to as Himself.

Why would He refer to the Son as Himself?

I thought you didn't believe in preexistence. Hiw is talking to the Son?

 

[LeviR]

Why would He refer to the Son as Himself?

I thought you didn't believe in preexistence. Hiw is talking to the Son?

The Father exists from all eternity. The son was first born of a woman and finally born of the Spirit by resurrection.
His God appointed him a Kingdom and anointed him as King. And has put all things under his feet. Even the angels of God are subject to him.
The son has created all who are to rule with him in his Kingdom. All since the beginning whom God has imputed His righteous belong to Jesus. They are all born from the dead when he calls them.
And he is to judge amount them.
The scepter he has is a rod of iron by which he will rule his Kingdom.

It’s no wonder his God refers to him as Himself.

 

[Butch5]

The Father exists from all eternity. The son was first born of a woman and finally born of the Spirit by resurrection.
His God appointed him a Kingdom and anointed him as King. And has put all things under his feet. Even the angels of God are subject to him.
The son has created all who are to rule with him in his Kingdom. All since the beginning whom God has imputed His righteous belong to Jesus. They are all born from the dead when he calls them.
And he is to judge amount them.
The scepter he has is a rod of iron by which he will rule his Kingdom.

It’s no wonder his God refers to him as Himself.

Ok, but that doesn't explain why God would refer to His Son as Himself. If there's no preexistence who was God talking to?

 

[JLB]

Don't undstand the question.

Do you believe Jesus is who He said He is; I AM?

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; John 8:58-59

 

[LeviR]

Ok, but that doesn't explain why God would refer to His Son as Himself. If there's no preexistence who was God talking to?

The writer of Hebrews quotes parts of the psalm and applies it to Christ.

 

[Butch5]

The writer of Hebrews quotes parts of the psalm and applies it to Christ.

Instill don't see how that eplau s why God would reference His Son As Himself.

Abraham spoke to Christ before the incarnation. They were having a conversation so He had to exist.

 

[LeviR]

Instill don't see how that eplau s why God would reference His Son As Himself.

Abraham spoke to Christ before the incarnation. They were having a conversation so He had to exist.

Because Jesus referenced himself as his Father.
Jesus didn’t have a conversation with Abraham.

 

[Grailhunter]

Do you believe Jesus is who He said He is; I AM?

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; John 8:58-59

LOL
I tell you I am running late.
But I am not God.

 

[Butch5]

Because Jesus referenced himself as his Father.
Jesus didn’t have a conversation with Abraham.

Where did Jesus reference Hself as Hos Father.

Jesus did have a conversation with Abraham. It's Gen 18 as I posted. Jacob had a conversation wit Jesus also. Several others did too

 

[Runningman]

Hey, that speaks of Abraham too. Before the age which started at Mount Sinai, when God gave His laws, Abraham was justified by faith and not by works of the law.

Exactly. If one reads the entire Old Testament there is no Jesus saying or doing anything. Then when one gets to the New Testament, what is the first thing they read about Jesus?

Matthew 1
1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

 

[Runningman]

What do you make of Paul's statement in Philippians 2?



You should have the same attitude toward one another that Christ Jesus had, who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking on the form of a slave, by looking like other men, and by sharing in human nature. Phil 2:6 NET

It means Paul is telling the Philippians to have same attitude as Jesus and then Paul explains Jesus' attitude a bit. Paul told the Philippians to believe they exist in the form of God and not to regard equality with God as something to be grasped, to empty themselves and take on the form of a servant.

Sometimes people say this passage means Jesus is God, but if that were true then Paul basically taught the Philippians to have the attitude that they are God. That isn't what Paul was trying to say.

 

[Runningman]

Abraham spoke with Him.



but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked? KJV

That didn't occur before Abraham though. The LORD is YHWH. Jesus isn't YHWH.

 

[Butch5]

That didn't occur before Abraham though. The LORD is YHWH. Jesus isn't YHWH.

Agreed, Jesus isn't YHWH. However, He is YHWH's agent. As such He speaks on YHWH's behalf and often in the 1st person. The Apostle John said no one has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son has made Him known. So no one had ever seen YHWH. That means that in all of those OT passages where someone encountered YHWH, it was the Son. Paul said no one Has seen nor can see God. So YHWH can't even be seen. He's the invisible God. That begs the Question, if no one has seen nor can see YHWH, who was it that they saw. It was YHWH's agent. YHWH' name is on Him.

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Notice YHWH sends His Angel or Messenger. YHWH says, "My name is in Him." The Septuagint says, "my name is on Him."

We actually see this I Genesis 19.

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In this passage both occurances of the word LORD are YHWH. So, we have two who are called YHWH. One is on Earth and He calls down fire and brimstone from the One in Heaven.

It seems obvious that if there is only one YHWH, but we have two here, one of them must be acting on behalf of the other and using His name in the first person. We know the YHWH on earth was previously dining with Abraham so He couldn't be the invisible YHWH. Thus He must be YHWH's agent. John said no one has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son has made Him known. Thus, this one called YHWH who dined Abraham must be the Only Begotten Son.

 

[Butch5]

It means Paul is telling the Philippians to have same attitude as Jesus and then Paul explains Jesus' attitude a bit. Paul told the Philippians to believe they exist in the form of God and not to regard equality with God as something to be grasped, to empty themselves and take on the form of a servant.

Sometimes people say this passage means Jesus is God, but if that were true then Paul basically taught the Philippians to have the attitude that they are God. That isn't what Paul was trying to say.

He gave an example of Christ who was in the form of God and emptied Himself of that form and took on the form of man. That requires preexistence.

 

[Butch5]

Guys, too many are letting their theology drive their interpretation. It should be the other way around.

 

[Butch5]

Exactly. If one reads the entire Old Testament there is no Jesus saying or doing anything. Then when one gets to the New Testament, what is the first thing they read about Jesus?

Matthew 1
1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

He's actually all over the Old Testament. However His name is not given because it was a secret. Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ that was kept hidden.

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.


And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Runningman]

Agreed, Jesus isn't YHWH. However, He is YHWH's agent. As such He speaks on YHWH's behalf and often in the 1st person. The Apostle John said no one has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son has made Him known. So no one had ever seen YHWH. That means that in all of those OT passages where someone encountered YHWH, it was the Son. Paul said no one Has seen nor can see God. So YHWH can't even be seen. He's the invisible God. That begs the Question, if no one has seen nor can see YHWH, who was it that they saw. It was YHWH's agent. YHWH' name is on Him.

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Notice YHWH sends His Angel or Messenger. YHWH says, "My name is in Him." The Septuagint says, "my name is on Him."

We actually see this I Genesis 19.

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In this passage both occurances of the word LORD are YHWH. So, we have two who are called YHWH. One is on Earth and He calls down fire and brimstone from the One in Heaven.

It seems obvious that if there is only one YHWH, but we have two here, one of them must be acting on behalf of the other and using His name in the first person. We know the YHWH on earth was previously dining with Abraham so He couldn't be the invisible YHWH. Thus He must be YHWH's agent. John said no one has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son has made Him known. Thus, this one called YHWH who dined Abraham must be the Only Begotten Son.

Sorry for my brief answer and I appreciate your well-written and thought out explanation, but one problem; that problem is that God's name in someone doesn't make them God so the Son wouldn't be YHWH either.

Revelation 22​

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.​

Also, the angel or messenger of the LORD isn't actually the LORD even if the angel does sometimes speak on behalf of God or act with God's authority. As the name suggests, a messenger isn't the one from whom the message originated.

Genesis 16:7-13 - the AOTL appears separately from the LORD and speaks about something the LORD said.
Revelation 19:10, Revelation 22:89 - the AOTL refused to be worshipped as God.
Judges 6:11-32 - the AOTL is a messenger of God, the angel leaves and God stays
Exodus 3:2 - the AOTL is a messenger of God
Judges 2:1 - the AOTL exercised delegated authority from God
Zechariah 1:13,14 - The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another.
Matthew 1:24 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was already a baby
Matthew 28:1-5 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was resurrected.