Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Grailhunter]

The OT is monotheistic, not monolithic. The NT is also monotheistic. If not, then you have made God out to be either a liar or ignorant (certainly not omniscient). Either way, he cannot be the God of the Bible.

I have fired spell check

 

[Butch5]

Years ago I was a member of an orthodox Trinitarian group led by Dallas Theological Seminary grads. They were discussing the evolution of the Trinity doctrine and the difficulty in comprehending it. They explained how all analogies eventually fail and so making it more difficult to explain.
Their conclusion was that the doctrine is still evolving.

From what I under stand it is still evolving. Today there are Trinitarian group that believe in a hierarchy among the three. The Athanasian Creed states the three are coequal and coeternal.

What amazes me is why people don't question it. It's illogical.

 

[LeviR]

Here's a fun little study if you are up for it sometime, but the word messiah is all over the Old Testament and New Testament. It sometimes refers to other people other than Jesus. Messiah or Christ literally means the anointed one, the anointed, an anointing. The root word is H4899 mashiach but there may be other forms of this word with the same or similar meaning depending on how it was being used in Hebrew grammar. In the New Testament it's G5547 christos.

You don’t even have to look that far. When the children of the serpent killed the children of the woman, they only bruised his heel. Those children are healed, raised back to life. But the children of the serpent, their head is crushed and never healed because they are dead forever.
Even when they are raised again it’s to die a second death from which there is no more resurrection.

 

[LeviR]

From what I under stand it is still evolving. Today there are Trinitarian group that believe in a hierarchy among the three. The Athanasian Creed states the three are coequal and coeternal.

What amazes me is why people don't question it. It's illogical.

Do you know that when Jesus spoke of himself coming down from heaven as the manna, he was speaking of his flesh and blood, his human nature. That he was to give his human nature to die so that if they would eat of his flesh and blood they would live forever. And that he only had to give the life of his nature once in order to secure life for himself and his brethren.
And speaking of the manna, the children of Israel were given manna to eat but were not satisfied. They loathed it and complained against God and Moses. So the Lord sent serpents among the people that when they were bitten many died. So , in order to save the people from death,Moses lifted up a serpent on a pole, and when the people looked upon the serpent they were healed and lived.
Jesus spoke of this when he said that just as Moses lifted up the serpent, so must the son of man be lifted up.
When we look upon the son of man who offered up his human nature that was set up on a pole we are healed and live.

 

[LeviR]

We have the serpent being lifted up on a pole.
We have the human nature being lifted up on the cross.
We have Jesus’ death destroying the devil.
We have God sending His son in the likeness of sinful flesh.
We have our nature being changed from mortal to immortal by resurrection. The natural flesh body being changed to the spiritual flesh body.
And we have Jesus never dying again by being raised from the dead.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the serpent represents the sinful human nature all man shares and is what brought sin into the world and kills everyone, and that it is synonymous with the devil.
And when the sinful human nature that Jesus was made like was destroyed so was the devil of his own nature.
I also think when Jesus overcame the devil by not sinning his sacrifice was accepted and he received eternal redemption for himself and those who trust in him.
I also think the devil still resides in our human nature but if we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.
And if we believe and obey the gospel we will be rewarded with eternal life. But if we believe and obey not we will face a second death from which there is no resurrection.

John 6:26-58

 

[JLB]

Again, you have presented a theological argument about what you think Jesus said. This topic began with me asking "Did Jesus ever say "I am God?" and you replied with your theology and verses you believe support your beliefs.

So Jesus didn't ever directly say he is God. Now that we know Jesus never said that, who did Jesus say he is? In John 8:40 Jesus said he is a man who heard the truth from God. The entire account of Jesus in the gospels is concerning a man whom God chose, anointed, and empowered to be Lord and Messiah.

Matthew 12
18Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

Acts 2
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Acts 10
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;…
John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews pick up stones to throw at Him when He said …
“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”




JLB

 

[Runningman]

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;…
John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews pick up stones to throw at Him when He said …
“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”




JLB

Ok, please quote what Jesus was saying and doing somewhere before Abraham is introduced in the Old Testament. Do it and I'll consider believing Jesus pre-existed as an angel.

 

[Butch5]

Ok, please quote what Jesus was saying and doing somewhere before Abraham is introduced in the Old Testament. Do it and I'll consider believing Jesus pre-existed as an angel.

Is it correct that you don't hold to the preexistence of the Son?

 

[LeviR]

Ok, please quote what Jesus was saying and doing somewhere before Abraham is introduced in the Old Testament. Do it and I'll consider believing Jesus pre-existed as an angel.

Angel? Like one of God’s holy angels in heaven?
To which of the angels has God said “thou are my son”?
The answer is none of them is called His son.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;…
John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews pick up stones to throw at Him when He said …
“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”




JLB

The Jews where looking for human warlord king Messiah.

But it did not matter, anybody that said something like that would be taken as claiming to be a Deity and that was sacrilegious to their beliefs and called for immediate execution.

Just like when Yeshua was before the High Priest in the Sanhedrin........
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” “He is worthy of death,” they answered. Matthew 26:63-66

 

[LeviR]

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him;…
John 8:58-59


Why did the Jews pick up stones to throw at Him when He said …
“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”




JLB

When he said, before Abraham was, I AM, he was referring to the God who never changes and who therefore isn’t a man.

 

[LeviR]

I’m Popeye the Sailor man, Popeye the Sailor man, I AM what I Am and that’s all that I AM, I’m Popeye the Sailor man.

 

[Runningman]

Angel? Like one of God’s holy angels in heaven?
To which of the angels has God said “thou are my son”?
The answer is none of them is called His son.

Pre-existent man then? The Bible says the first man is Adam. Not sure what other ways Jesus could pre-exist.

 

[Runningman]

Is it correct that you don't hold to the preexistence of the Son?

That's correct, pending any scriptural backing of Jesus doing something before Abraham.

 

[LeviR]

Pre-existent man then? The Bible says the first man is Adam. Not sure what other ways Jesus could pre-exist.

In the mind of the prophets who spoke of him.

 

[Runningman]

In the mind of the prophets who spoke of him.

Yes, that's what I have kept saying as well. I also believe Jesus pre-existed in God's plan and foreknowledge. The Bible speaks of people as if they existed when they didn't many times. For sure it must be foreknowledge or we would need to also hold Jeremiah and saved Christians also pre-existent. Right?

Jeremiah 1
5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

2 Tim 1
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[LeviR]

That's correct, pending any scriptural backing of Jesus doing something before Abraham.

2 Tim 1
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hey, that speaks of Abraham too. Before the age which started at Mount Sinai, when God gave His laws, Abraham was justified by faith and not by works of the law.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Pre-existent man then? The Bible says the first man is Adam. Not sure what other ways Jesus could pre-exist.

Hello Runningman, Have you read: https://christianforums.net/threads/definition-the-pre-existence-of-christ-scripture.105410/

Love, Walter

 

[LeviR]

Hello Runningman, Have you read: https://christianforums.net/threads/definition-the-pre-existence-of-christ-scripture.105410/

Love, Walter

That’s Plato and Socrates philosophy. Not Biblical theology.
Christ knows of only two states of existence. The one as a natural man of flesh and blood who died. and the spiritual man of flesh and bone who was raised to die no more.
Both states in the image of God. One with the earthly nature and the other with the divine nature.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

That’s Plato and Socrates philosophy. Not Biblical theology.
Christ knows of only two states of existence. The one as a natural man of flesh and blood who died. and the spiritual man of flesh and bone who was raised to die no more.
Both states in the image of God. One with the earthly nature and the other with the divine nature.

I Disagree