Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Runningman]

He gave an example of Christ who was in the form of God and emptied Himself of that form and took on the form of man. That requires preexistence.

So Paul taught the Philippians to have the attitude that they pre-existed?

 

[Butch5]

So Paul taught the Philippians to have the attitude that they pre-existed?

No. He taught them to have an attitude of humility. Think about being in the form of God and then lowering oneself to the lowly position of man. Remember man is even lower than the Angels. That's humility. No matter how good they may be, consider themselves lower than what they are.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry for my brief answer and I appreciate your well-written and thought out explanation, but one problem; that problem is that God's name in someone doesn't make them God so the Son wouldn't be YHWH either.

Revelation 22​

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.​

Also, the angel or messenger of the LORD isn't actually the LORD even if the angel does sometimes speak on behalf of God or act with God's authority. As the name suggests, a messenger isn't the one from whom the message originated.

Genesis 16:7-13 - the AOTL appears separately from the LORD and speaks about something the LORD said.
Revelation 19:10, Revelation 22:89 - the AOTL refused to be worshipped as God.
Judges 6:11-32 - the AOTL is a messenger of God, the angel leaves and God stays
Exodus 3:2 - the AOTL is a messenger of God
Judges 2:1 - the AOTL exercised delegated authority from God
Zechariah 1:13,14 - The angel of the LORD and the LORD speak to one another.
Matthew 1:24 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was already a baby
Matthew 28:1-5 - The angel of the Lord is present after Jesus was resurrected.

I agree that the Angel of the Lord isn't YHWH. However, He does speak on YHWH's behalf and in the first person. We can see that in Scripture.

As I pointed out the Angel of the Lord is called YHWH in Scripture. To deny that is to deny Scripture. It's in black and white.

I'm at work so I don't have time at the moment to address the passages you posted. I'll do that when I have time.

 

[Runningman]

He's actually all over the Old Testament. However His name is not given because it was a secret. Paul speaks of the mystery of Christ that was kept hidden.

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.


And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

They didn't know who the Messiah would be. It was only revealed at his water baptism when he received the anointing and empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

John 1
31And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

God chose Jesus as His servant.

Matthew 12
17This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah:
18“Here is My Servant,
whom I have chosen,
My beloved,
in whom My soul delights.
I will put My Spirit on Him,
and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

 

[Runningman]

No. He taught them to have an attitude of humility. Think about being in the form of God and then lowering oneself to the lowly position of man. Remember man is even lower than the Angels. That's humility. No matter how good they may be, consider themselves lower than what they are.

Okay, but Philippians 2:5 says that they need to have the same attitude as Jesus then after that Paul explained what Jesus' attitude is. So Paul was not telling them to have the attitude that they are God or that they pre-existed. Therefore, Jesus' attitude wasn't that he is God or pre-existed.

 

[Runningman]

I agree that the Angel of the Lord isn't YHWH. However, He does speak on YHWH's behalf and in the first person. We can see that in Scripture.

As I pointed out the Angel of the Lord is called YHWH in Scripture. To deny that is to deny Scripture. It's in black and white.

I'm at work so I don't have time at the moment to address the passages you posted. I'll do that when I have time.

It's all good. When you get a chance, can you show me where the angel is called YHWH?

 

[LeviR]

Agreed, Jesus isn't YHWH. However, He is YHWH's agent. As such He speaks on YHWH's behalf and often in the 1st person. The Apostle John said no one has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son has made Him known. So no one had ever seen YHWH. That means that in all of those OT passages where someone encountered YHWH, it was the Son. Paul said no one Has seen nor can see God. So YHWH can't even be seen. He's the invisible God. That begs the Question, if no one has seen nor can see YHWH, who was it that they saw. It was YHWH's agent. YHWH' name is on Him.

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Notice YHWH sends His Angel or Messenger. YHWH says, "My name is in Him." The Septuagint says, "my name is on Him."

We actually see this I Genesis 19.

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In this passage both occurances of the word LORD are YHWH. So, we have two who are called YHWH. One is on Earth and He calls down fire and brimstone from the One in Heaven.

It seems obvious that if there is only one YHWH, but we have two here, one of them must be acting on behalf of the other and using His name in the first person. We know the YHWH on earth was previously dining with Abraham so He couldn't be the invisible YHWH. Thus He must be YHWH's agent. John said no one has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son has made Him known. Thus, this one called YHWH who dined Abraham must be the Only Begotten Son.

If God can use an agent of whom He puts His name in, then He could have did that with the Angel before Christ was born. Then after Christ is born He can transfer His name to Christ from the Angel. And make all the angels then subject to the son.
Hebrews asks, to which of the Angels has God ever said “you are my son, this day have I begotten you?” The answer is no angel.
The Angel was God’s agent of the old covenant, Jesus of the new.

 

[LeviR]

It's all good. When you get a chance, can you show me where the angel is called YHWH?

Many places. Every time God is said to appear and be seen. He appeared to Adam, Abraham, Moses, Issac, Jacob etc.
No one has ever seen God’s face, because they would die on the spot.
The only time the One true God descended from heaven was when He was about to give His laws to His people. Exodus 19
He descended on the top of Mount Sinai. When Moses had reached the top of the Mount, The Father was there. Moses asked to see His glory, which meant to see His face. But the Father said no man shall see My face and live. However, God put Moses behind the rocks so Moses could see through a crack. And then God put His hand over the crack as He passed by. After He passed by, He removed His hand and Moses saw His back as He passed.
And because Moses got so close to God, his face shone like the sun when he came back down from the Mount.

 

[Butch5]

If God can use an agent of whom He puts His name in, then He could have did that with the Angel before Christ was born. Then after Christ is born He can transfer His name to Christ from the Angel. And make all the angels then subject to the son.
Hebrews asks, to which of the Angels has God ever said “you are my son, this day have I begotten you?” The answer is no angel.
The Angel was God’s agent of the old covenant, Jesus of the new.

They are one and the same.

 

[Butch5]

It's all good. When you get a chance, can you show me where the angel is called YHWH?

It's in Genesis 19. When He's calling down fire and brimstone on Sodom

 

[Butch5]

Okay, but Philippians 2:5 says that they need to have the same attitude as Jesus then after that Paul explained what Jesus' attitude is. So Paul was not telling them to have the attitude that they are God or that they pre-existed. Therefore, Jesus' attitude wasn't that he is God or pre-existed.

He's making the case that Christ was in the same form as God. However, He humble Hself and became man. He's not telling the Philippians to think they're equal with God. He's saying look at Christ. He was equal (in form) with God and yet He didn't say, no I'm not going to be a lowly man. Instead He humbled Himself and took the lower position. It's the same thing Jesus said, He said when you're invited to a feast don't take the upper seats. He said take the lower one and let the host move you up to a higher seat.

 

[LeviR]

They are one and the same.

One was an Angel of the old covenant, and the other a man of the new covenant. Two separate people. I believe Michael was the angel of the old, and Jesus the man of the new.

 

[LeviR]

When it’s said that Jesus will come with the voice of the archangel (Michael) it means Jesus will come with the authority that Michael had as the angel of old covenant

 

[Butch5]

One was an Angel of the old covenant, and the other a man of the new covenant. To separate people. I believe Michael was the angel of the old, and Jesus the man of the new.

The word angel is the Greek Angelos. It simple means messenger. It could be a spirit or person.

 

[LeviR]

The word angel is the Greek Angelos. It simple means messenger. It could be a spirit or person.

A messenger can be one who never dies or one who does. Either immortal or mortal. This is why the context matters.
A spirit can refer to the same. When mortal man is referred to as a spirit, it refers to his mind or thinking and his behavior.
They both have tangible bodies.

 

[Butch5]

A messenger can be one who never dies or one who does. Either immortal or mortal. This is why the context matters.
A spirit can refer to the same. When mortal man is referred to as a spirit, it refers to his mind or thinking and his behavior.
They both have tangible bodies.

The point is that either can be a messenger. The Messinger in the OT is the same as the One in the NT. John makes that clear. No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son has made Him known. Abraham stood face to face with the Lord. That could not have been YHWH as no one has seen nor can see Him. Abraham saw the messenger of YHWH who uses YHWH's name. John tells us that this is YHWH's Son.

 

[JLB]

LOL
I tell you I am running late.
But I am not God.

I know your not, but Jesus is.

That's why the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, WHEN He said these words... I AM.
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; John 8:58-59

 

[Free]

You are coming up with your own definition of a God again.

I am not biting.

I am? You don't believe Gen 1:1?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (ESV)

Do you disagree that it clearly shows that God is a necessary being, that he has absolute existence, which is one of those main things that makes him God?

Don’t have to….the Webster Dictionary is enough.

A somewhat old fashioned adjective, begotten is the past participle of the verb beget, which means to father or produce as offspring.

I take that you did not know....

I'm looking for the biblical definition of that particular Greek word. Webster's often just doesn't cut it when it comes to ancient languages used in specific contexts. I take it that you did not know....

That is the point conceived of God is the only way.

Now you're just begging the question.

You stated: "Yeshua was begotten, conceived, and born….not created."

I responded: "if the Son did not exist prior to all creation, if he did not have absolute existence, as the Father did, then it necessarily follows that he was created."

You stated: "If He pre-existed He could have just appeared on a mountain top."

To which I responded: "But, then he wouldn't have been truly human, which would completely undermine the gospel."

Being conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit says nothing of whether or not the Son preexisted.

Now if you can come up with Old Testament scriptures that say Yeshua did this and Yeshua did that and Yahweh and Yeshua were talking to each other, then we can talk about it. Do you think Yeshua was an undercover God?…..Maybe He was hiding? Maybe Yahweh did not know He was there?

Again, this strongly suggests you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. I already stated that Jesus didn't exist until the Son became human. And, why the double standard? Why do you suggest that "Maybe Yahweh did not know He was there?" and yet ignore the very clear statement of Yahweh that "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me"?

Besides, we know that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is in the OT, but you claim that he is a separate God who appears out of nowhere in the NT. And that is despite Yahweh's multiple, clear statements that "besides me there is no god." We also have the many claims of Jesus to have preexisted, which are then reiterated by John, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews, mostly by way of claiming that the Son was the agent of creation

The Bible uses progressive revelation, but that revelation cannot contradict previous revelation, as your tritheist position does.

Ya you have to use non-biblical words for things that are not biblical, nor true.
That is how false beliefs deceive people. Again not biting.

The argument that words have to be in the Bible or what's being mentioned is false, is so fallacious, it's hard to believe that someone who claims superior education, and actually has superior education, would use it. I generally find that it's a cop-out to avoid addressing something.

False beliefs come from ignoring plain statements in Scripture, those for which there is one clear meaning.

I wonder how they through it in there. Kind of like spit ball in a staw.

I have no idea what you're saying or addressing.

 

[Butch5]

I am? You don't believe Gen 1:1?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. (ESV)

Do you disagree that it clearly shows that God is a necessary being, that he has absolute existence, which is one of those main things that makes him God?


I'm looking for the biblical definition of that particular Greek word. Webster's often just doesn't cut it when it comes to ancient languages used in specific contexts. I take it that you did not know....


Now you're just begging the question.

You stated: "Yeshua was begotten, conceived, and born….not created."

I responded: "if the Son did not exist prior to all creation, if he did not have absolute existence, as the Father did, then it necessarily follows that he was created."

You stated: "If He pre-existed He could have just appeared on a mountain top."

To which I responded: "But, then he wouldn't have been truly human, which would completely undermine the gospel."

Being conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit says nothing of whether or not the Son preexisted.


Again, this strongly suggests you don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity. I already stated that Jesus didn't exist until the Son became human. And, why the double standard? Why do you suggest that "Maybe Yahweh did not know He was there?" and yet ignore the very clear statement of Yahweh that "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me"?

Besides, we know that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, is in the OT, but you claim that he is a separate God who appears out of nowhere in the NT. And that is despite Yahweh's multiple, clear statements that "besides me there is no god." We also have the many claims of Jesus to have preexisted, which are then reiterated by John, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews, mostly by way of claiming that the Son was the agent of creation

The Bible uses progressive revelation, but that revelation cannot contradict previous revelation, as your tritheist position does.


The argument that words have to be in the Bible or what's being mentioned is false, is so fallacious, it's hard to believe that someone who claims superior education, and actually has superior education, would use it. I generally find that it's a cop-out to avoid addressing something

False beliefs come from ignoring plain statements in Scripture, those for which there is one clear meaning.


I have no idea what you're saying or addressing.

Free, did you see my post about the video link?

 

[Free]

There is a diffeence between "The Holy Spirit" and Yahweh's Sprirt.

Okay, now this is even more stunning coming from someone who claims superior, biblical education. I honestly don't know how anyone who has read the Bible can come to such a conclusion.

Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.

Isa 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them.
Isa 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit,

So, did the Holy Spirit exist in the OT or did he not? David and Isaiah seem to think so.


Mat 3:16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;

Mar 1:10 And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

Luk 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

Joh 1:32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him.
Joh 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’

Notice in these parallel accounts it is said that "the Spirit of God," "the Spirit," and "the Holy Spirit" are all equated.


Mat 10:17 Beware of men, for they will deliver you over to courts and flog you in their synagogues,
Mat 10:18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 When they deliver you over, do not be anxious how you are to speak or what you are to say, for what you are to say will be given to you in that hour.
Mat 10:20 For it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,

Mar 13:9 “But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations.
Mar 13:11 And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
Mar 13:12 And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death.

Luk 12:11 And when they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not be anxious about how you should defend yourself or what you should say,
Luk 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

Notice that the parallel accounts have "the Spirit of your Father" and "the Holy Spirit" as being one and the same.


Mat 12:28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
...
Mat 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Mat 12:32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Notice that Matthew equates "the Spirit of God" with "the Spirit" and "the Holy Spirit."


Mat 22:43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

Mar 12:36 David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet.”’

How is it that the Holy Spirit spoke through David, when the Holy Spirit wasn't around in the OT?


Act 1:4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me;
Act 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
...
Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
...
Act 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Act 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
...
Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Joel 2:28-32 has Yahweh saying that he will pour out his Spirit on all flesh, which Peter makes clear, yet Peter says that it is the Holy Spirit that was poured out. That is exactly what Jesus said was the promise from the Father. Was Peter wrong in making the connection to Joel 2?


Act 1:16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

How is it that "the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David," if David lived in the OT, but the Holy Spirit didn't exist until the NT?


Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
...
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Here, Paul clearly refers to "the Spirit" as "the Spirit of God," "the Spirit of Christ," and "his [the Father] Spirit."


Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1Th 4:8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Are those referring to "the Holy Spirit" or "the Spirit of God"?


And, importantly:

Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Heb 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing

1Pe 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully,
1Pe 1:11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.

2Pe 1:21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

How is it that OT prophecies were both done by "the Spirit of Christ in them" and "by the Holy Spirit," if supposedly neither the Son (who is the Christ) nor the Holy Spirit existed in the OT?

(All ESV.)

This was not exhaustive, but more than enough to show that it is plainly evident that the writers of the NT have no problem using "the Spirit of God," "the Holy Spirit," "the Spirit," "the Spirit of Christ," "the Spirit of your Father," "his Spirit," and "the Holy Spirit of God" as synonyms; they all refer to the Holy Spirit. They also have no problem attributing OT prophecies and utterances to "the Holy Spirit" and "the Spirit of Christ," which is incredibly awkward if neither the Holy Spirit nor the Son existed in the OT as you claim.

If you disagree, then please, with Scripture, show exactly how 'There is a diffeence between "The Holy Spirit" and Yahweh's Sprirt.'