Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Free]

I have already answered this.
Come up with some thing new.
Yahwah had a Son and His Son is a God.

No, dismissing an argument based directly on Scripture is not addressing it. Your dismissive answer fallaciously begs the question but doesn't address what Yahweh himself said, namely, that there was no god before him and there would be none after him. Again, from start to finish the Bible teaches monotheism, that there is only one God. There absolutely cannot be one God in the OT and three in the NT.

He did not begot Himself.

Again, this makes no sense in regards to the Trinity.

I have already went over this.
The was the problem with naming the third member spirit or ghost.

Another dismissive post that doesn't actually address the argument and passages presented. You do that far too often. It's almost as though you think no one will notice how much you sidestep without answering. But, in all fairness, you are far from the only anti-Trinitarian doing it.

LOL Are you thinking I do not know these scriptures.

Yes. You show no knowledge of the Greek.

And I have addressed this too.

Where?

Whatever they are talking about,

See, you don't know them.

Yeshua does not show up as an apparent, functioning, active God in the Old Testament. And Yahweh denys the existance of any other God.
Like said show me where it say….and Yeshua said….or Yeshua did this or that….or Yahweh said to Yeshua.
As far as Yeshua’s awareness of that time period that is possible.

This is all fallaciously begging the question and has been addressed as such before. It ignores the plain meaning of the Greek and ignores the several passages I have given which clearly show that the Son was the agent of creation, which means it is logically impossible for the Son to not have never existed. This is very basic reasoning based on clear and plain passages in the Bible.

I am not going to keep repeating myself.

I hope not. Some actual answers that show some serious study and thought, with strong Scriptural support, would be nice.

 

[Grailhunter]

Much of that is against Modalism, not Trinitarianism, particularly when it comes to the Incarnation and the resulting "economic Trinity"--the functions and relationships of the three divine persons for the purpose of salvation.

Not to mention that in none of those posts did you address what I was initially pointing out--that you haven't addressed the two logical arguments I have given from 1 Cor 8:6, namely:

1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)

How many things have you said wrong here, your logic and conclusions are both train wrecks. The only thing you have done here is keep me busy correcting you.

As far as how the Apostle referring to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord.

They did that even in the scripture that you gave. Here is some more….

Acts 20:21, Romans 5:1, 5:11, 15:6, 1st Corinthians 15:57, 2nd Corinthians 1:3, 2nd Corinthians 11:31, Galatians 1:3 , Galatians 6:14, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 1:17, Ephesians 3:14, Ephesians 5:20, Colossians 1:3, 1st Thessalonians 1:3, 1st Thessalonians 3:11, 1st Thessalonians 3:13, 1st Thessalonians 5:23, 2nd Thessalonians 1:8, 2nd Thessalonians 1:12, 2nd Thessalonians 2:16, Hebrews 13:20, 1st Peter 1:3, Jude 1:21

I did 1st Corinthians 8:6 as one of those few scriptures that support the one God formula. But for every scripture you give me that supports the one God formula I can give you 50 that do not.

 

[Grailhunter]

First, if "one God, the Father" precludes the Son from also being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from also being Lord. That is basic logic and sound reasoning. Yet, we know that the Father is also Lord.

God the Father and God the Son are both Gods. The Apostles were just showing a distinction between the two....showing difference.

 

[Grailhunter]

I did. You quoted it: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." And, in John 8:58 (and 8:24) Jesus also claimed to be I Am.

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.
'I am" getting hungry....But I am not God. Just because the word I am appear in scripture does not mean they are referring to God I AM.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have Strong's and then some. The clear problem here is that the only word translated as "only begotten" when used of Christ, is not gennao, but monogenes.

First, monogenes is used only nine times in the NT; five of those times it is used in reference to Christ and only translated as "only begotten" (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). It means "unique," "only one," or something very similar. The other four times, the KJV translates it as “an [the] only” (Luke 7:12; 8:42), “only child” (Luke 9:38), and “only begotten” (Heb 11:17). None of the times it is translated as “conceived” or merely "begotten."

One of the best proofs of what the scriptures mean is when it is stated and then it happens.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son…

Luke 1:31
And behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Luke 1:35
The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Matthew 1:20
But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

So Begot means sire offspring.

 

[Grailhunter]

No, dismissing an argument based directly on Scripture is not addressing it. Your dismissive answer fallaciously begs the question but doesn't address what Yahweh himself said, namely, that there was no god before him and there would be none after him. Again, from start to finish the Bible teaches monotheism, that there is only one God. There absolutely cannot be one God in the OT and three in the NT.

I did not dismiss it, I said I already covered the topic....and no the New Testament does not teach monotheism.

 

[Grailhunter]

Where?

What?

 

[Grailhunter]

This is all fallaciously begging the question and has been addressed as such before. It ignores the plain meaning of the Greek and ignores the several passages I have given which clearly show that the Son was the agent of creation, which means it is logically impossible for the Son to not have never existed. This is very basic reasoning based on clear and plain passages in the Bible.

I am not debating that the New Testament is talking about a pre-existent Christ. I am just looking for proof in the Old Testament.
I say show me where Yeshua is active in the OT by name.
You know that Yahweh repeatedly said that He was the only God and there was no one like Him.
And then what happens if you do find it. That sets Judaism on it ear, it no longer a one God religion.

 

[Butch5]

The word "form" there in Philippians 2:6 means the form, shape, outward appearance. Are you saying God is a human?

What you said contains a bit of theology, but at face value it means Jesus isn't God. It just plainly called Jesus a human who is a servant.

No, God isn't human.that's what Jesus became. He was in the form of God. He emptied Himself of the form of God and became human.

 

[Butch5]

Can't find it in Genesis 19. Which verse please?

If you start reading at Gen 18:1 the LORD appears appears to Abraham. He dines with him and they have a discussion. The events culminate in chapter 19.

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

The word "form" there in Philippians 2:6 means the form, shape, outward appearance. Are you saying God is a human?

What you said contains a bit of theology, but at face value it means Jesus isn't God. It just plainly called Jesus a human who is a servant.

If you begin reading at Gen 18:1 the LORD appears to Abraham. He dines with, and converses with him.The events culminate in chapter 19.

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; (KJV)

In this passage we have the LORD, YHWH, on Earth Calling down fire and brimstone for the LORD, YHWH, in Heaven. We have two YHWY's in this passage. One of them can be seen. According to John no one has ever seen YHWh. Paul said YHWY can't be seen. He's invisible. That begs the question how did YHWH appear to Abraham and how did Abraham see Him? The only way we can explain this is that Abraham saw YHWH's messenger who uses YHWH's name. The Apostle John said no one Has ever seen God, he even adds, 'at any time.' He said the Son has made Him known. So, God’s Son made YHWH known to Abraham. Thus John is telling us that Jesus God's Son is the one who has made YHWH known to mankind.

The Jews should have known this. Its right there in Exodus that God's messenger would have God's authority because wears His Name and He was speaking for God. In John 8 the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they said He made Himself equal with God. He was speaking for God so His words were the words of God. They obviously missed the fact that they were talking to their Messiah.

 

[Butch5]

I am not debating that the New Testament is talking about a pre-existent Christ. I am just looking for proof in the Old Testament.
I say show me where Yeshua is active in the OT by name.
You know that Yahweh repeatedly said that He was the only God and there was no one like Him.
And then what happens if you do find it. That sets Judaism on it ear, it no longer a one God religion.

He's not called Yeshua in the OT because His name was kept secret.

And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on
(KJV)

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. (KJV)

He refuses to tell Jacob His name. It's a secret. Notice that Jacob says he has seen God face to face. God is invisible. He has not and cannot be seen. That begs the question who is this one that Jacob calls God that can be seem? It's the messenger of YHWH who uses His name.

 

[Runningman]

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began". (John 17:5)

Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24

Obviously, the glory Jesus receives is GIVEN to him by his God and Father.

Trinitarians will say the Son is God because he has the same glory eternally with the Father.
If that’s true then why is he GIVEN it in both passages?
It’s because the Trinity is not a Biblical doctrine.

I agree and that glory Jesus received from God he also gave to his disciples. What is glory that Jesus could get from God and also give to his disciples? There's a big clue in this chapter.

If you will check John 17:2, it says God gave Jesus the authority to give eternal life. Personally, I believe Jesus gave his disciples eternal life. But Jesus was not resurrected to never die again until after his crucifixion. Since that's the case, the glory Jesus had before the world existed was regarding God's plan and foreknowledge.

 

[Runningman]

No, God isn't human.that's what Jesus became. He was in the form of God. He emptied Himself of the form of God and became human.

I believe the form of God would have to be consistent with the usage and definition of the word form. I do agree God isn't a human (if I ask questions that seem to have obvious answers it's because I genuinely want to know what you believe since some Christians, Mormons specifically, do actually believe the Father has a human body)

So the form of God must be righteousness, holiness, etc.

 

[Butch5]

I believe the form of God would have to be consistent with the usage and definition of the word form. I do agree God isn't a human (if I ask questions that seem to have obvious answers it's because I genuinely want to know what you believe since some Christians, Mormons specifically, do actually believe the Father has a human body)

So the form of God must be righteousness, holiness, etc.

Where not told what God is other than He is Spirit or Breath. Whatever He is the Son was the same. The Son literally came out of the Father. Jesus said this in John 8:42.

If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

The word "from" in this passage is the Greek word " ek". It literally means to come out of. Jesus proceeded forth and came out of God.

 

[Runningman]

If you start reading at Gen 18:1 the LORD appears appears to Abraham. He dines with him and they have a discussion. The events culminate in chapter 19.

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

If you begin reading at Gen 18:1 the LORD appears to Abraham. He dines with, and converses with him.The events culminate in chapter 19.

Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; (KJV)

In this passage we have the LORD, YHWH, on Earth Calling down fire and brimstone for the LORD, YHWH, in Heaven. We have two YHWY's in this passage. One of them can be seen. According to John no one has ever seen YHWh. Paul said YHWY can't be seen. He's invisible. That begs the question how did YHWH appear to Abraham and how did Abraham see Him? The only way we can explain this is that Abraham saw YHWH's messenger who uses YHWH's name. The Apostle John said no one Has ever seen God, he even adds, 'at any time.' He said the Son has made Him known. So, God’s Son made YHWH known to Abraham. Thus John is telling us that Jesus God's Son is the one who has made YHWH known to mankind.

The Jews should have known this. Its right there in Exodus that God's messenger would have God's authority because wears His Name and He was speaking for God. In John 8 the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they said He made Himself equal with God. He was speaking for God so His words were the words of God. They obviously missed the fact that they were talking to their Messiah.

I don't agree with that interpretation since in the Old Testament the authors always spoke of YHWH as one person. There aren't any other examples to support this interpretation since YHWH is spoken of in distinction from the Messiah in Psalm 2:5 and Psalm 110:1 very clearly. They aren't the same person in one sentence and then completely different persons in the next sentence. The way to explain Genesis 19:24 is that it's repetition to emphasize the fact that the fire came down from God in heaven.

 

[Runningman]

Where not told what God is other than He is Spirit or Breath. Whatever He is the Son was the same. The Son literally came out of the Father. Jesus said this in John 8:42.

If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

The Holy Bible: King James Version.

The word "from" in this passage is the Greek word " ek". It literally means to come out of. Jesus proceeded forth and came out of God.

Yes, but how is that?

John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

When it says the begotten Son in the bosom of the Father, do you suppose that refers to God's literal chest or out of the heart/mind of God?

 

[Butch5]

I don't agree with that interpretation since in the Old Testament the authors always spoke of YHWH as one person. There aren't any other examples to support this interpretation since YHWH is spoken of in distinction from the Messiah in Psalm 2:5 and Psalm 110:1 very clearly. They aren't the same person in one sentence and then completely different persons in the next sentence. The way to explain Genesis 19:24 is that it's repetition to emphasize the fact that the fire came down from God in heaven.

It context. There is only one YHWH. However, His Messenger speaks on His behalf and uses His name. YHWH stated this plainly.

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009.

YHWH sent His messenger. He said His name is in Him. Thus, His messenger can be called YHWH. Also notice that YHWH gave this messenger the authority to forgive sin. Who beside YHWH could forgive sin? Who came in the NT with the authority to forgive sin? It was Jesus. The only ones in Scripture who could forgive sins were, YHWH, His Mesainger, who was Jesus, and the apostles who Jesus gave that authority to.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, but how is that?

John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

When it says the begotten Son in the bosom of the Father, do you suppose that refers to God's literal chest or out of the heart/mind of God?

I believe it indicates a close relationship. Just as we see that Hagar was in Abraham's bosom. That's how Ishmael was conceived.

 

[Grailhunter]

He's not called Yeshua in the OT because His name was kept secret.

And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour? And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret? So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wondrously; and Manoah and his wife looked on
(KJV)

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. (KJV)

He refuses to tell Jacob His name. It's a secret. Notice that Jacob says he has seen God face to face. God is invisible. He has not and cannot be seen. That begs the question who is this one that Jacob calls God that can be seem? It's the messenger of YHWH who uses His name.

There are people that think Yeshua is a pilot of a time traveling flying Saucer.
Scripture seem to spark the imagination, that is not entire a bad thing.
God in incognito, God in secret, God in hiding. As soon as the Old Testament identifies Him, Judaism is no longer a religion of one God.

The name game….as soon as they took God’s name out of the OT the identity of God became fuzzy and fueled the imagination to plug things in to the storyline. 24,000 modifications to do that, they should get something for their effort.

And after that Christians could plug anything anywhere saying it is a Deity. And no matter what Yahweh said about being the only God and there was no one like Him, His words fall on deaf ears or are twisted….When they read Him saying He is the only God and there is no other like Him….In their minds He is saying I am the only God, three, three, three. Hence the story of the power of false beliefs.

To you it was shown that you might know that the YHWH, He is God; there is no other besides Him. Deuteronomy 4:35
(This is how it appeared in the scriptures….God’s name appeared in the scriptures around 6,800 times until they took it out and replaced it with the words God or Lord.)

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the YHWH is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, YHWH is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

I am the YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Isaiah 42:8

“You are my witnesses,” declares the YHWH , “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.” Isaiah 44:8

I am the YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; Isaiah 45:5

For thus says YHWH, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): “I am YHWH, and there is no other. Isaiah 45:18

Remember the former things of old; for I am YHWH, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

That all the peoples of the earth may know that YHWH is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60

Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers? Malachi 2:10

 

[Fish153]

Not good enough because being known and blessed by God before the world began is something that applies to normal Christians. If it applies to me and yet I didn't pre-exist then why do you say it applies to Jesus differently? There should be something in the Old Testament demonstrating what Jesus was saying and doing.

Runningman--- sorry that's a "cop out". Can any of us say that we were "with God" before the world began? Jesus says "glorify me with the glory I HAD WITH YOU before the world began". None of us can say we were "with God" before the world began. We were in his thoughts---but we did not EXIST. Jesus is clearly stating He existed before the world began. "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS GOD". (John 1:1). John 17:5 clearly shows us that Jesus existed LONG BEFORE Abraham existed. That is why he says "Before Abraham was, I AM". (John 8:58). Note that he doesn't say "before Abraham was I WAS". No--He says "before Abraham was, I AM". Meaning: I HAVE ALWAYS EXISTED. God the Son has ALWAYS EXISTED.