1 Peter 5:5.
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
- Thread starter reddogs
- Start date
LOL
Free said,
"The doctrine of the Trinity is based directly on Scripture:
1. One God.
2. Three divine Persons.
3. The three Persons are coequal and coeternal."[/QUOTE\]
Various Trinitarian concepts exist. But generally the Trinity teaching is that in the Godhead there are three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; yet, together they are but one God. The doctrine says that the three are coequal, almighty, and uncreated, having existed eternally in the Godhead.
The Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says: “Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves.”
We can understand, then, why the New Catholic Encyclopedia observes: “There are few teachers of Trinitarian theology in Roman Catholic seminaries who have not been badgered at one time or another by the question, ‘But how does one preach the Trinity?’ And if the question is symptomatic of confusion on the part of the students, perhaps it is no less symptomatic of similar confusion on the part of their professors.”
The truth of that observation can be verified by going to a library and examining books that support the Trinity. Countless pages have been written attempting to explain it. Yet, after struggling through the labyrinth of confusing theological terms and explanations, investigators still come away unsatisfied.
In this regard, Jesuit Joseph Bracken observes in his book What Are They Saying About the Trinity?: “Priests who with considerable effort learned . . . the Trinity during their seminary years naturally hesitated to present it to their people from the pulpit, even on Trinity Sunday. . . . Why should one bore people with something that in the end they wouldn’t properly understand anyway?” He also says: “The Trinity is a matter of formal belief, but it has little or no effect in day-to-day Christian life and worship.” Yet, it is “the central doctrine” of the churches!
How could such a confusing doctrine originate? The Catholic Encyclopedia claims: “A dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.” Catholic scholars Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler state in their Theological Dictionary: “The Trinity is a mystery . . . in the strict sense . . . , which could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible.”
However, I disagree that simply because there are those who contend that since the Trinity is such a confusing mystery, it must have come from divine revelation. Divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God: “God is not a God of confusion.” (1 Corinthians 14:33)Revised Standard Version
In view of what 1 Corinthians 14: 33 says, would God be responsible for a doctrine about himself that is so confusing that even Hebrew, Greek, and Latin scholars cannot really explain it, and
do people have to be theologians, scholars or religious leaders ‘to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent’? (John 17:) If that were the case, why did so few of the educated Jewish religious leaders recognize Jesus as the Messiah? His faithful disciples were, instead, humble farmers, fishermen, tax collectors, housewives. Those common people were so certain of what Jesus taught about God that they could teach it to others and were even willing to die for their belief. (Matthew 15:1-9; 21:23-32, 43; 23:13-36; John 7:45-49; Acts 4:13)
So I honestly believe if the Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible, because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God’s revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who God is. We have to know the truth about God to to get eternal life. (John 17:3) We can't believe what is false about the true God or his only begotten Son.
Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: “It is written.” “He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.” (Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27)
A protestant publication titled, The Illustrated Bible Dictionary says, The Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." And a Catholic authority In the New Catholic Encyclopedia says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: “Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”
The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.”
Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.”
There are too many theologians, scholars etc that admit that there is no actual doctrine of the Trinity in the scriptures.
I believe what 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 says. I see nowhere in scripture of a Trinity doctrine. I'm not going to blindly follow anyone who says the Trinity Doctrine is in scripture when I can see for myself that no Trinity doctrine exists in scripture.
I have found nowhere in scripture that says, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ That in this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.”
"The doctrine of the Trinity is based directly on Scripture:
1. One God.
2. Three divine Persons.
3. The three Persons are coequal and coeternal."[/QUOTE\]
Various Trinitarian concepts exist. But generally the Trinity teaching is that in the Godhead there are three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; yet, together they are but one God. The doctrine says that the three are coequal, almighty, and uncreated, having existed eternally in the Godhead.
The Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says: “Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves.”
We can understand, then, why the New Catholic Encyclopedia observes: “There are few teachers of Trinitarian theology in Roman Catholic seminaries who have not been badgered at one time or another by the question, ‘But how does one preach the Trinity?’ And if the question is symptomatic of confusion on the part of the students, perhaps it is no less symptomatic of similar confusion on the part of their professors.”
The truth of that observation can be verified by going to a library and examining books that support the Trinity. Countless pages have been written attempting to explain it. Yet, after struggling through the labyrinth of confusing theological terms and explanations, investigators still come away unsatisfied.
In this regard, Jesuit Joseph Bracken observes in his book What Are They Saying About the Trinity?: “Priests who with considerable effort learned . . . the Trinity during their seminary years naturally hesitated to present it to their people from the pulpit, even on Trinity Sunday. . . . Why should one bore people with something that in the end they wouldn’t properly understand anyway?” He also says: “The Trinity is a matter of formal belief, but it has little or no effect in day-to-day Christian life and worship.” Yet, it is “the central doctrine” of the churches!
How could such a confusing doctrine originate? The Catholic Encyclopedia claims: “A dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation.” Catholic scholars Karl Rahner and Herbert Vorgrimler state in their Theological Dictionary: “The Trinity is a mystery . . . in the strict sense . . . , which could not be known without revelation, and even after revelation cannot become wholly intelligible.”
However, I disagree that simply because there are those who contend that since the Trinity is such a confusing mystery, it must have come from divine revelation. Divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God: “God is not a God of confusion.” (1 Corinthians 14:33)Revised Standard Version
In view of what 1 Corinthians 14: 33 says, would God be responsible for a doctrine about himself that is so confusing that even Hebrew, Greek, and Latin scholars cannot really explain it, and
do people have to be theologians, scholars or religious leaders ‘to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent’? (John 17:) If that were the case, why did so few of the educated Jewish religious leaders recognize Jesus as the Messiah? His faithful disciples were, instead, humble farmers, fishermen, tax collectors, housewives. Those common people were so certain of what Jesus taught about God that they could teach it to others and were even willing to die for their belief. (Matthew 15:1-9; 21:23-32, 43; 23:13-36; John 7:45-49; Acts 4:13)
So I honestly believe if the Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible, because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God’s revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who God is. We have to know the truth about God to to get eternal life. (John 17:3) We can't believe what is false about the true God or his only begotten Son.
Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying: “It is written.” “He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.” (Matthew 4:4, 7; Luke 24:27)
A protestant publication titled, The Illustrated Bible Dictionary says, The Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century." And a Catholic authority In the New Catholic Encyclopedia says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”
The Encyclopedia of Religion says: “Theologians agree that the New Testament also does not contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”
The New Encyclopædia Britannica observes: “Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.”
Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.”
There are too many theologians, scholars etc that admit that there is no actual doctrine of the Trinity in the scriptures.
I believe what 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 says. I see nowhere in scripture of a Trinity doctrine. I'm not going to blindly follow anyone who says the Trinity Doctrine is in scripture when I can see for myself that no Trinity doctrine exists in scripture.
I have found nowhere in scripture that says, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.’ That in this Trinity . . . the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.”
Just only one God known as the Father (John 17:3) with Jesus being the one God sent. That’s why Jesus is called the Son of God, not God the Son. Jesus never claimed to be God either. For sure he outright denied it. The Trinity is false. If you would like we can discuss that.
Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.
Johann!@#
Member
Original Text (Isaiah 9:6 KJV)
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
Morphological and Syntactic Analysis
"Unto us a child is born":
Morphology: "Child" (Hebrew: יֶלֶד, yeled) - masculine noun, singular; "born" (Hebrew: יֻלַּד, yullad) - Qal passive, perfect, third person masculine singular.
Syntactic Force: Indicates the subject (child) and the action (is born) with a passive voice, emphasizing the significance of the event rather than the action.
"Unto us a son is given":
Morphology: "Son" (Hebrew: בֵּן, ben) - masculine noun, singular; "given" (Hebrew: נִתַּן, nittan) - Niphal passive, perfect, third person masculine singular.
Syntactic Force: Repeats the passive construction, emphasizing that the son is a gift.
"And the government shall be upon his shoulder":
Morphology: "Government" (Hebrew: מִשְׂרָה, misrah) - feminine noun, singular; "shall be" (Hebrew: וַתְּהִי, vattĕhī) - Qal, imperfect, third person feminine singular; "shoulder" (Hebrew: שִׁכְמוֹ, shikmo) - masculine noun, singular with third person masculine singular suffix.
Syntactic Force: Future tense, indicating the child's future role and authority.
"And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace":
Morphology:
"Wonderful" (Hebrew: פֶּלֶא, pele) - masculine noun.
"Counselor" (Hebrew: יוֹעֵץ, yoetz) - masculine noun.
"The mighty God" (Hebrew: אֵל גִּבּוֹר, El Gibbor) - compound noun.
"The everlasting Father" (Hebrew: אֲבִיעַד, Aviad) - compound noun.
"The Prince of Peace" (Hebrew: שַׂר־שָׁלוֹם, Sar-Shalom) - compound noun.
Syntactic Force: Descriptive titles indicating the character and roles of the child.
Cross-References and Theological Significance
Messiah:
Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Matthew 1:23: "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel (which means, God with us)."
Prince of Peace:
John 14:27: "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid."
Ephesians 2:14: "For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility."
Wonderful, Counselor:
John 14:16: "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever."
Isaiah 11:2: "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."
Mighty God:
John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Hebrews 1:8: "But of the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.'"
Everlasting Father:
John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."
John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
Jehovah, The Great I AM:
Exodus 3:14: "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM.' And he said, 'Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
John 8:58: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.'"
Alpha and Omega:
Revelation 1:8: "'I am the Alpha and the Omega,' says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.'"
Revelation 22:13: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Conclusion
This detailed breakdown of Isaiah 9:6, supplemented by New Testament references, highlights the multifaceted identity of Jesus Christ. He is the promised Messiah and Prince of Peace, embodying the roles of Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, and the eternal presence of Jehovah. These titles and roles underscore His divine nature, His mission to bring peace and salvation, and His eternal sovereignty, as confirmed by various passages across the Old and New Testaments.
What's the problem?
Johann.
Butch5
Member
Sorry, I just saw this. It simply means Godhood. It's like motherhood, fatherhood, brotherhood etc.
Butch5
Member
There a dozens of passages of Scripture that support this. The problem is that church doctrine usually trumps Scripture.
The whole doctrinal argument is self refuting.
Butch5
Member
Actually, it can be easily understood without a Trinity.
Agreed! There is only one God and Jesus said that was the Father.
They're not the only three options
I agree that it attempts to make sense of God's revelation. However, it fails to do so. It not only doesn't make sense if God's revelation, it doesnt make sense period. Quite a few passages have shown that the doctrine has serious flaws. Apart from that we don't find the doctrine in church history until the 5th century. That is an epic red flag!
What that tells us is that this doctrine is an attempt from the minds of men to explain something they don't understand. That they're explanation is a logical contradiction is another epic red flag! We don't even know who the people were who came up with the doctrine. Some scholars want to credit it to Augustine. That in and of itself is scary.
What we have here is a doctrine that we're supposed to believe under threat of the loss of salvation, that was instituted by some people we don't even know, they gave us a doctrine that is completely illogical and laced with fallacies.
I gotta say, I see bunch of red flags here.
Then try and bring some understanding.
That Jesus said the Father is God doesn't preclude Jesus from also being truly God. Please explain why you are agreeing with the tritheist position, when: 1.) God himself says he knows of no other god and that there never will be another, and 2.) you state that "There is only one God and Jesus said that was the Father."
How can there be three Gods but only one God?
What are other options?
And, yet, not a single anti-Trinitarian on these forums has shown there to be any flaws or how it doesn't make sense. It's infinitely complex and cannot be fully comprehended by the finite mind, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense of God's revelation; it's directly based on God's full revelation.
A fully developed doctrine, but we do find in writings from the second century that many in the Church believed Jesus was also truly God.
In a sense that is very true. Do you really think the finite mind should be able to fully comprehend the infinite God? A God that can be fully comprehended is a god of one's own making.
Please show how it's a logical contradiction.
That's relevant how?
Please, show how it is "completely illogical and laced with fallacies."
It seems that your position is not the logical one as it has one glaring self-contradiction: how can there be three Gods yet only one God? And, that despite God saying many times that he is the only and there never will be another.
And, yet, have provided nothing but unsupported critique.
Butch5
Member
Hi Free,
I'm really busy at the moment but I will respond to your post here. For starters let me suggest that Jesus aka the Son of God, prior to the incarnation, is the Father's agent. He speaks on behalf, often in the first person, of God the Father. I'll show that from Scripture. We'll also have to define the word God and what that means.
When an “anti-Trinitarian” says it doesn’t make sense, they are referring to the contradictions within Scripture that cause it to be nonsensical.
For example:
When it’s said that the Father has life in Himself it refers to being the very existence of life, and not that He is merely alive.
The Father gives that life that exists within Himself to the son.
But the Trinity teaches that the son has always had the same life that the Father has.
That is a contradiction and makes no sense.
The Bible makes sense, the Trinity doctrine does not.
Hi reddogs, After reading your posts, I thought about: https://christianforums.net/threads/1-john-5-7-deliberate-hoax-or-inspired-scripture.100819/ I realized so much about The Godhead, I was wondering if you have all read it?
Thank you, Love Walter
Well over a hundred scriptures that prove it wrong.
And the general theme of the Gospels where two Gods....a Father and a Son interact with one another.
But, that's precisely what I'm referring to. It appears contradictory when one takes it out of context, which is the never-ending problem of anti-Trinitarians; none seem to understand context and just want to steamroll those verses which clearly show Jesus's deity with those that clearly show his humanity, rather than trying to reconcile and make sense of all of them, as the Trinitarians do.
For instance, in your argument above, you completely ignore that Jesus is both truly God and truly man. It completely ignores Phil 2:5-8 (among numerous passages), which I have posted on before and have yet to receive any response of substance that actually addresses what is said by Paul, which is the anti-Trinitarian MO--just ignore those things which don't fit. That or steamroll and completely twist the plain meaning of certain verses and passages.
Here is part of an article by Douglas K. Blount:
" Now if Christians said both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1b) it is not the case there exists precisely one God, they would contradict themselves. So also if they said both that (2a) there are three divine persons, and that (2b) it is not the case that there are three divine persons, they would also contradict themselves. But Christians do not affirm both 1a and 1b. Neither do they affirm both 2a and 2b. Rather, they affirm 1a and 2a. And this would be contradictory only if either 1a entails 2b or 2a entails 1b.
To put the point differently, when Christians say that God is both one and three, they do not say that He is one in the same way in which He is three. So, for instance, they do not say both that (1a) there exists precisely one God, and that (1c) there exist three gods. Nor do they say both that (2a) there are three divine persons, and that (2c) there exists only one divine person.
Since 1c entails 1b, affirming both it and 1a would be contradictory. And since 2c entails 2b, affirming both it and 2a would also be contradictory. But, as a matter of fact, Christians deny both 1c and 2c. In affirming 1a and 2a, then, Christians affirm that in one way God is one and in another way He is three. And in so doing they do not contradict themselves.
So, then, those who think the doctrine of the Trinity is contradictory misunderstand either the nature of a contradiction or the doctrine itself. Perhaps they confuse contradiction with mere paradox, taking our inability to understand how the doctrine is true to entail that it is false. But our inability to understand how God is both one and three tells us far more about ourselves than it does about God. The Bible represents God as both one and three; that suffices for us to know that He is so, regardless of whether we understand the how of it." (The Apologetics Study Bible, pp. 1459-60)
I understand what the doctrine teaches, I’m not confused about it. I’ve always understood their claim that the One God is both One and three.
That is the general idea. But the more specific is what concerns me.
The specific details of the doctrine and how they relate to what the Scripture says is what’s concerning.
Can I ask you to explain how it is that Jesus has a God? That would be the one whom he calls his God and Father. And the one whom the letters to the churches say “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”
How is it that Jesus has a God and the letters addressed to the churches affirm the same?
Please explain.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59
Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him?
JLB
Paul writes in his letter to Titus -
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Titus 2:11-14
To Timothy, Paul writes -
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
Peter says it this way -
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1
It was pointed out earlier, that there is a distinction made in the salutation of Revelation between “He who was, and who is, and who is to come” and the faithful witness Jesus Christ.
“Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.”
What many fail to realize is the “Him who is and who was and who is to come”, the one who is distinct from Jesus Christ……..He ”IS TO COME”.
“looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
Our great God is the He who IS TO COME with the Savior Jesus Christ.
Well, that settles that.
Not only will our great God appear, but so will the faithful witness Jesus Christ.
The great God appears before those who are before His throne singing Holy, Holy, Holy is our great God Almighty.
And the Savior, Jesus Christ also appears.
Two separate and distinct persons appearing together.
To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6and has made us [c]kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
I asked this question, but no trinitarian here wants to go near it:
“Can I ask you to explain how it is that Jesus has a God? That would be the one whom he calls his God and Father. And the one whom the letters to the churches say “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”
How is it that Jesus has a God and the letters addressed to the churches affirm the same?
Please explain.” - me
So, I went to the CARM website to see if I could get an answer. Here’s what they say:
“It can be said that Jesus, the man, had someone He would call His God, and His was a reference to the Father. Since He will always be a man (as well as divine), He will always have someone He will call His God–but this is in reference to God the Father. That does not mean that Jesus does not share the same divine nature as God the Father since the Bible says that Jesus is also God made man (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:8).”
Does Jesus have a God?
Yes, Jesus, who is the second person of the Trinity and divine by nature, worshiped God the Father as a good Jew who was under the law.
carm.org
It was explained that as a Jewish man, Jesus would worship his God, the Father. And as a man he would have a God, and that God would be the Father.
So, as a man, Jesus’ God was his Father and as a Jewish man under the law, he would worship his God and Father.
So, why would any other man choose to have a God other than the God whom the man Jesus worshipped as his God. His Father?
If we were to take the example of the man Jesus we ought to worship the only God he recognized as God.