Understanding the GodHead. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

[Grailhunter]

19. If Christ said, (John 5:30) “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.” The statement regarding the will of the one Who sent Him, occurs in other verses. John 6:38 & 39 Matt 12:50. Then there is Matthew 26:36-46 Mark 14:36 “And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.” This is a request from one person to another of higher authority and a designation of two separate wills... “not what I will, but what thou wilt.” The wills and minds of two Gods, clearly defined in words and actions with a clear show of respect from Son to Father agreeing to subject Himself to the will of the Father.

20. The oldest of the Christian Creeds is called the Old Roman Creed 2nd century…
I believe in God the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord, Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried, on the third day rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, whence he will come to judge the living and the dead; and in the Holy Spirit, the holy Church, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh,

21. And Christ said this while He walked the earth...But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven" Matthew 10:33 God the Father and God the Son. Two persons in two different places and the Son denying someone before His Father.

22. “The My Father verses” are the most prevalent and best examples of Yeshua’s relationship with Yahweh. Over fifty times in the Gospels Yeshua refers to Yahweh as “My Father.” As far as understanding the interconnecting relationship between Yeshua and Yahweh these verses are very important to understand in content, context, and perspective. In most of these verses the differences between Yahweh and Yeshua are expressed, either by hierarchy, authority, interaction, will, mind, movement, communication, or physical location.

23. In John 2:16, Yeshua indicates that the Temple is His Father’s house .....not His. Christ never indicates that the Temple belongs to Him, the temple belongs to another. Nor did Christ ever suggest that after He left they should worship Him in the Temple.

24. In John 14:2 Christ tells of a place that would await the Apostles. He says, “In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.” Note that He is not saying, His house. In 14 of the “My Father” verses, Yeshua refers to Yahweh as the Father in Heaven, precisely written, “Father which is in Heaven.” In 7 of these verses He is referring to His Father in Heaven, worded “Father in Heaven.” So Christ was standing on Earth referring to God the Father in Heaven, two different places.

25. In John 5:7 Christ says, “And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. You have neither heard His voice at anytime, nor seen His form.” In this verse one should understand that it takes someone else to bare witness of another, and the voice and form they were hearing and seeing then, was not that of God the Father. He was not baring witness of Himself.

26. In Matthew 18:10, where Christ was warning not to offend the “little ones”....Christ indicates that their Angels constantly behold the face of Yahweh...in Heaven. Now surely, there is an understanding of the concept of omni-presence, but if you notice, Christ is not saying, they behold My face, or Our faces everywhere. Throughout the storyline of the Gospel, Christ makes it clear that He and His Father are in two different places. Christ’s overall mission on Earth is to fulfill the will of God which is Yahweh....and He makes it clear that Yahweh, His Father sent Him. Yeshua never said in the Gospels that He sent Himself or came on His own behalf, or was doing His own will, or begot Himself. Over 40 times Christ says in the Gospels that His Father sent Him. This denotes the higher authority of the Father and that His Father is another person at a different place.

In several verses Christ indicates that God the Father gives or appoints certain things to Him. To appoint or give is an indication of hierarchy, authority, and an indication of two positions, given and received. You will not find a scripture where Christ says He sent the Father somewhere, or that the Father was doing His will, or He gave authority to the Father, it is not His position to do any of that. Other examples, Christ would not say, I gave Myself, all things, nor would He say that He loved Himself.

27. In John 10:17, Christ says, “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.” The same is true of honor or glory.

28. Honor is a heartfelt expression from one person to another. Christ does not honor Himself or love Himself. John 8:54, “If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that He is your God. All three of these expressions describe something happening from one...to... another.

29. Apostolic Perspective. There is a continual reference to Father and Son and a designation of Yahweh as God the Father in Heaven while Christ was on earth. And if you look closely the scriptures give distinctions to God as the Father and Christ as Lord in the same sentence. As in the benediction of some of books in the NT...2nd Corinthians, Ephesians, and Philippians.

30. 1st Timothy 6:13
“I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate.”

Matthew 5:16
Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 6:1
Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 10:32
Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:10
See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 18:14
So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

Matthew 18:19
Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 23:9
Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Luke 2:49
And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s house?” (Note again: His Father’s house, not His house, not Our house.)

The True concept of “oneness” is really not a matter of arithmetic. In modern

 

[Grailhunter]

times we are all about numbers, but a modern first grader would know more about numbers than most of the people of antiquity. The concept of one could have a symbology in this time period, not just the literal one, but also the concept of “unity.” The word “one” in regard to relationships can also mean solidarity. Again, in relation to the Trinity it is the unity and the solidarity, in mind, in heart, and in spirit between Yahweh, Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father gives us in Genesis 2:24 an idea of how the concept of two people being one can be applied; “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” Yeshua reiterates this concept in Mathew 19:5 & 6 and Mark 10:8, specifically saying, “And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” Certainly everyone understands that husbands and wives do not merge to be one physical human, nor do they lose their character. They certainly join physically but they are not absorbed into one person, even though the condition of solidarity may exist between them. So in that case the word one is not denoting “the number one” or the singularity of the two persons in the marriage.

Beyond what is listed in the examples above, in the New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of this concept of one. Speaking to God the Father (He was not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one... John 17:19-24 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that Thou didst send Me, and didst love them, even as Thou didst love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church being one. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”

The same is true of the Godhead, which is made up of three Gods, but if there would have been a hundred named Gods that talked with each other and did all the above, the Church would have labeled them all one in order to get their theology to work and to say there is only one God. Certainly multiple persons in one God is a difficult concept, but the more persons the more difficult the concept becomes. If there would have been eight, sixty, or a hundred persons it would have been a concept near to impossible to convey. Tri-unity is difficult enough, but sixty-unity would have been intolerable and unacceptable. But as it was, three aspects of one god was a common scenario in Pagan beliefs, the triple goddess is a good example. Christianity worshipped Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit which was familiar to the Pagans converting to Christianity….Gentiles. And so was the story of a god impregnating a woman and giving birth to a god.

The one God formula for the Trinity did not occur for several centuries but the first documented time the word Trinity was used in relations to Christianity was written in the second century. (Now, the definitions that follow are not that hard to lookup and for anyone that is truly interested, I recommend it.) The Greek word used for Trinity was Τριάς, meaning "a set of three." The only meaning of one in this word was that it was one set of three.

Webster’s definition of Trinity

1. the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead according to Christian dogma

2. not capitalized : a group of three closely related persons or things

3. a set of three

And again the McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

As time went on and the Church’s definition for the word Trinity changed, the next word for Trinity came from two Latin words. Trinitas, meaning, "the number three” and Unitas, meaning, unity; state of being one or undivided · sameness, uniformity · agreement, concord.

The biblical testament of the authority of the Father has always been a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church’s doctrine of the Trinity, because hands down, the Old Testament and Christ Himself testified clearly and definitively, of the authority of the Father, over a hundred times, dozens of these coming from Christ Himself. In the Old Testament Yahweh makes it clear that He is singular God. He never functions as a trio, and specially indicates that He is the only one and no one like Him. There are zero suggestions of a Godhead in the Old Testament. Yahweh never suggested that there is a Godhead. There are zero suggestions that Yahweh recognized any other entity but Himself. There are zero suggestions that He recognized any name as a Deity other than Himself. No accounts in Old Testament of Yahweh conversing with Yeshua, no discussion defined between the two. There is One God in the religion of the Jews. You shall have no other Gods before me. There is zero evidence of God having a Son in the Old Testament. If a Jew started praying to another named God they would have been stoned. But things change in the New Testament.

The facts and the bottom line is, Yeshua is the Son of the Almighty God. Yeshua called Yahweh His Father and Yeshua calling Yahweh His God appears three times in the Gospels. Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, John 20:17

Yahweh---God Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth and mankind. Father and God to Yeshua.

Yeshua---A full-fledged God, The Son of God Almighty, Messiah and Savior
The unnamed God referred to as the Holy Spirit, a full-fledged God. Helper, guide, nurture, teacher, wisdom. Because the Holy Spirit was not named and given the designation of Spirit, people think the Holy Spirit is different in substance than Yahweh and Yeshua....but no scripture suggests that.

 

[Grailhunter]

So that is it, truth for you. While those that believe in the one God formula cling to a couple scriptures, I have provided hundreds that the Trinity is made up of three Gods, unique and distinct and united in purpose. The worst way to understand the New Testament is to take a couple unexplained incongruent scriptures and make a religious belief out of it when they do not agree with the whole New Testament.

On the other hand, these biblical proofs of the authority of God the Father in no way conflict with beliefs regarding the Trinity. In the Old Testament it is easy to see that Yahweh proclaims Himself as the ultimate authority and does not define Himself as a trio. In the New Testament after Yahweh begets a Son, His Son repeatedly attests to the authority of the Father. A numerical count of the three Gods occur as the Gospels progress, but descriptions or discussions regarding the trio of Gods does not occur until after Christ ascends to Heaven, and rightly so, the trio did not form until He ascended to Heaven. At which time, God the Father still holds the positional authority as God Almighty. In relation to each other the Bible assigns them positional seniority as we would understand the relationship of Father and Son....more or less the chain of command...But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and head of woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 1st Corinthians 11:3

Then from our perspective they have equal authority over us. Then in relation to the salvation of humanity, Christ has all authority. To put this in simple terms it would be like delegating authority to complete a task, but Yahweh is still chairman of the board in Heaven. The Truth makes sense. The Shield of the Trinity is still compatible as a representation of the Godhead, in that God in center represents that spiritual unity, while there is a God called Yahweh, a God called Yeshua, and a God called the Holy Spirit. And at the same time the representation makes it clear the Yahweh is not Yeshua and neither are the Holy Spirit. Three individual Gods that are in accord. But still I see people scratching their heads over it.

 

[LeviR]

Yes, making a fallacious argument again. That Jesus said the Father was his God in no way whatsoever means that Jesus is not also divine.

God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, according to Scripture.

Here’s where Trinitarians really goof.
They say there is only one God, not more than one.
That one God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

If they were to say Jesus is the one God, that would be incorrect because the one God must include all three according to their definition.
The one God is not Jesus alone. It can’t be according to Trinitarians.
Again, the one God is not more than one and therefore must include all three to be the one God.
To say the Father is the only true God would therefore be false according to Trinitarians. Because the ONLY true God must include all three.
If we were to say the Father is the ONLY true God it excludes any other from being God also.

A Trinitarian will never say Jesus is the only true God because that would exclude any other person from being God.

Therefore, when the scripture says the Father is the ONLY true God it excludes any other from being the ONLY true God.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, He did. I guess you missed it, when you ignored my question.


Try it again. From post number 56.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59

So Jesus didn't say he is God then. Ok. What you have presented is your interpretation and theological argument of what you wish to believe Jesus meant. Others are free to interpret that differently and in a way consistent with Scripture.

Question:

Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him?

Because Jesus is a man (John 8:40) and they misunderstood him. Knee jerk reaction when they were already looking for a reason to kill him. (John 5:18)

So you shouldn't base your reasoning off of what a Pharisee said or did in the Bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

So Jesus didn't say he is God then. Ok. What you have presented is your interpretation and theological argument of what you wish to believe Jesus meant. Others are free to interpret that differently and in a way consistent with Scripture.

Son of God.
The Apostles referred to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord.
All three are Gods but that does not mean they are the same exact thing or "person".
Yeshua considered Yahweh as His God.

The difference is not all that different and it still got him killed.

Matthew
62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, thereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 66 what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

 

[LeviR]

Son of God.
The Apostles referred to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord.
All three are Gods but that does not mean they are the same exact thing or "person".
Yeshua considered Yahweh as His God.

The difference is not all that different and it still got him killed.

Matthew
62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, thereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 66 what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

When God says, I alone am LORD. It means He “I” and no one else is the true YHWH. “I” and “he”:are single person pronouns. Even in Greek.
There is one “I” who alone is the true God.
The Holy Spirit is not another YHWH and is never referred to as such.
The Father, who alone is the true God, manifests Himself by His own Spirit. The Father’s own Spirit comes forth from the Father and is given to others.
The Father’s holy habitation is in heaven and He sends His spirit from there. He does not send another person, nor does a person get poured out.
He sends what already belongs to Him by which gives Him alone the glory.

 

[Runningman]

Son of God.
The Apostles referred to Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord.
All three are Gods but that does not mean they are the same exact thing or "person".
Yeshua considered Yahweh as His God.

The difference is not all that different and it still got him killed.

Matthew
62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.” 64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, thereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; 66 what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

Claiming to be the Son of God isn't blasphemy in Jewish law. No laws about saying such a thing being blasphemy. The Jews themselves also said they are sons of God (John 8:39). That only exposes their hypocrisy and willingness to kill him over false accusations.

Jesus also quoted from Daniel 7:13, where he spoke of the prophecy of the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven. The high priest should have been pretty familiar with this because Daniel 7:13 speaks of an exclusively human Messiah who isn't himself God. i.e., the Son of man and Ancient of Days aren't the same person. If they new their Scripture they would have seen Jesus denied being God. Or perhaps they knew and didn't care?

So Jesus actually claimed to be a man who is the messiah and their main issue was is they misinterpreted this to be equal with God. Had Jesus claimed to be equal with God then yes of course that would have been blasphemy. Jesus avoided saying he is equal to God. He outright denied equality with God in very clear terms. They used the "Son of God" statement to kill him under the false premise it means equality with God.

John 10
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[LeviR]

Claiming to be the Son of God isn't blasphemy in Jewish law. No laws about saying such a thing being blasphemy. The Jews themselves also said they are sons of God (John 8:39). That only exposes their hypocrisy and willingness to kill him over false accusations.

Jesus also quoted from Daniel 7:13, where he spoke of the prophecy of the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven. The high priest should have been pretty familiar with this because Daniel 7:13 speaks of an exclusively human Messiah who isn't himself God. i.e., the Son of man and Ancient of Days aren't the same person. If they new their Scripture they would have seen Jesus denied being God. Or perhaps they knew and didn't care?

So Jesus actually claimed to be a man who is the messiah and their main issue was is they misinterpreted this to be equal with God. Had Jesus claimed to be equal with God then yes of course that would have been blasphemy. Jesus avoided saying he is equal to God. He outright denied equality with God in very clear terms. They used the "Son of God" statement to kill him under the false premise it means equality with God.

John 10
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.

John 14
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Their false doctrines make “son of man” to be an idea totally foreign to scripture.
It means Jesus was originally a son of Adam. However being raised from the dead and granted eternal life he no longer can be said to have a mortal mother and father. He only has his God and Father as both his God and Father and no God mother. He was born of the Spirit of holiness by being raised from the dead.
This means he is still man but an immortal man as opposed to a mortal man.

 

[LeviR]

Their false doctrines make “son of man” to be an idea totally foreign to scripture.
It means Jesus was originally a son of Adam. However being raised from the dead and granted eternal life he no longer can be said to have a mortal mother and father. He only has his God and Father as both his God and Father and no God mother. He was born of the Spirit of holiness by being raised from the dead.
This means he is still man but an immortal man as opposed to a mortal man.

They have another false doctrine they call “the fall of man”. This means that Adam, after he sinned, had a change in his nature.
The truth is, Adam always had the same nature since his was created.
If his nature changed to become sinful only after he sinned then why did he sin in the first place.
They haven’t a clue what they are talking about.
As a son of Adam, Jesus had the same nature as all of us. If everyone who is a son of Adam has the same nature as Adam then they have whatever can be said of his nature. If it is sinful then Jesus had a sinful nature.
If Jesus didn’t, then his man nature was unlike any other man nature and therefore would not be man but something else.

 

[JLB]

I disagree.

Ok. Fair enough.

Let's review some scripture.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

Whenever an Old Testament prophet would say, "thus says the LORD", it was the Spirit of Jesus Christ speaking through them.


Example:


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1

YHWH the LORD God is the One who created the heavens and the earth.

This is exactly what the New Testament teaches us about Jesus Christ.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

This passage from Hebrews is a quote from Zechariah.

Back to Zechariah 12 - We can honestly now say, based on 1 Peter 1:10-11 - Words of Christ in red...

Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


There's more but I want you to comment -





JLB

 

[JLB]

So Jesus didn't say he is God then. Ok. What you have presented is your interpretation and theological argument of what you wish to believe Jesus meant. Others are free to interpret that differently and in a way consistent with Scripture.

Since it seems you are not going to answer my question, then I will answer it for you.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59


Question:

Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him?


Answer:

Because He just claimed to be God, by saying before Abraham was, I AM, He was invoking the name of YHWH the LORD God of Israel.

That's why the Jews picked up stones to stone Him... and you know it.



JLB

 

[Free]

It stands in contradiction to the Old Testament not the New Testament. In the Old Testament only Yahweh was worshipped Yahweh. He was the only God and there was no one like Him.

In the New Testament we worship….
God the Father Yahweh
God the Son Yeshua
God the Holy Spirit

But, as I've pointed out many times, it is Yahweh who states:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:2 “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

(All ESV.)

It's plain to see that Yahweh really thought he was the only one and that there never would be another. There are hardly any clearer statements in Scripture; it's as clear and plain as it gets. So, you have two choices: 1) he isn't all-knowing, which means he isn't the God of the Bible, or 2) he lied, which means he isn't the God of the Bible. Take your pick.

Not to mention that Jesus taught there was one God, again, as he should as a monotheistic Jew.

And you think you have a lot of scriptures....lets see them.

I have given many and done so many times.

I argue against false beliefs and the one God formula skews the meaning of a lot of scriptures.

Well, your beliefs about God flat out contradicts what God himself says and makes him out to be either ignorant or a liar. I prefer to believe what he has made plain.

That is funny....Yeshua was the Son of a God. And testified that Yahweh was His God.

Of course. What else would you expect? If Jesus was also truly divine--God in human flesh--just how do you think we should expect him to act or what we should expect him to say?

No anti-Trinitarian has bothered to try and answer that either.

 

[LeviR]

Ok. Fair enough.

Let's review some scripture.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

Whenever an Old Testament prophet would say, "thus says the LORD", it was the Spirit of Jesus Christ speaking through them.

“He” is not in the original. “He” was not speaking through them.

 

[LeviR]

Since it seems you are not going to answer my question, then I will answer it for you.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:56-59


Question:

Why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him?


Answer:

Because He just claimed to be God, by saying before Abraham was, I AM, He was invoking the name of YHWH the LORD God of Israel.

That's why the Jews picked up stones to stone Him... and you know it.



JLB

I am what I am means that God never changes. It means He will not be something other than He is.
IOW He will not be man.

 

[LeviR]

I am what I am means that God never changes. It means He will not be something other than He is.
IOW He will not be man.

When Jesus said “before Abraham was, I Am.”

It seems the Jews didn’t know what that meant. It means God will not be man. He will always be what He is and nothing else. No more, no less.

 

[Free]

You have a hocus pocus theology running in your head.

Be careful.

The one God formula for the Trinity skews the meaning of over a hundred scriptures and the storyline of the Gospels…

Then, please, show how. And, while you're at it, show how God isn't either ignorant or a liar by claiming he is the only God and there never will be another god.

And then here are over a hundred scriptural reasons why the one God formula for the Trinity is false.

I still have yet to see one.

Baptist definition of the Trinity
We believe that there is one, and only one, living and true God and infinite, intelligent Spirit, the Maker and Supreme Ruler of Heaven and Earth

Provide proof, please.

Pentecostal definition of the Trinity
The doctrine states that there is one God, a singular divine spirit with no distinction of persons….who manifests himself in many ways, including as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This stands in sharp contrast to the doctrine of three distinct, eternal persons posited by Trinitarian theology.

Then there are those that believe Yeshua is the “one” and only God... representing three aspects of God or even Christ being the God that created the Heavens and Earth. Which would pretty much invalidate the entire Old Testament and the Apostle’s Creed, where God the Father is the Creator, or even the concept of God being the Father.

You need to be more clear, unless you are purposely trying to mislead people. That applies to the United Pentecostal/"Jesus Only" denomination(s), not Pentecostalism in general. That is Modalism, not Trinitarianism. It seems as though you still haven't studied the doctrine of the Trinity.

Now this one God formula makes you wonder how God the Father fits in! Oddly enough, the “confusion factor” comes from a “qualifying condition” from the 4th century on, the thinking is if it makes no sense or cannot be understood, that is the qualifying factor that it is of God! This is an interesting topic in itself. Debates over what the Trinity meant, and or what it is, has continued throughout the centuries.

Again, that's Modalism/Oneness theology, not Trinitarianism.

The winning point always has been and is, that the Gospels clearly document the presence, actions, communications, and movements, of three persons (Gods).

No, there cannot be three Gods; three divine persons, yes, but only one God.

But the most commonly accepted doctrine of the Trinity, is that there are three persons in one God, called God, named God, as if the word God is a name. This is the larger intent and underlying reason for this doctrine of the Trinity, and that is to say “one God” not Gods. Because of this the reasons for and explanation of the errors with the one God formula for the Trinity starts with the removal of Yahweh’s name from the Old Testament. This was the event that set the stage for the one God formula and it started with the removal of God’s name from the Old Testament scriptures. That is to change the name of the Yahweh to God. Rather than “God” representing spiritual position, to change the word God to a proper name. At which point they could manipulate it very easily.

The truth is that God the Father's name at one time appeared around 6,800 times in the Old Testament and He was adamant that He was the only one and no one like Him existed. There are a few words in the OT that refer to Yahweh, like EL and Elohim and at times they referred to locations or holy sites, but they are references not proper names, or they could not say or write them. On the other hand YHWH does refer to the proper name of God the Father and at one time it appeared over 6.800 times in the Old Testament.

This is a great misrepresentation of the truth. God's name isn't God; anyone who knows the Bible knows it's a title and the name God uses the most is YHWH. God has many names in the OT. Your arguments are not sound and appear to be mere conjecture.

The exact pronunciation of Yahweh name is debatable but from around 840 BC on, His name was represented by the Tetragrammaton….YHWH. Then during the Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible (The Septuagint, beginning around 280 BC) they removed the Tetragrammaton and replaced it with the words Lord or God or both. So then during the Ecumenical Councils they could argue that the Trinity was a functional unnamed trio in the Old Testament ….because God was now all their names!

Your reasoning is poor here. Can you not even consider that it is precisely because "The exact pronunciation of Yahweh name is debatable," that Kurios was put in? Do you think it better to have an unpronounceable name, especially when it's a different language, than to have a "placeholder" for the name of God that can be pronounced? It has absolutely nothing to do with trying to formulate the doctrine of the Trinity.

The word Trinity is not in the Bible

Which isn't relevant, right?

but it was coined by early Christian writers but they did not define the Trinity as three Gods in one person or entity.

Of course they didn't; no one does. That is not the doctrine of the Trinity, that's Modalism/Oneness theology, or close to it.

These differences could not be resolved but Emperor Constantine insisted on an agreement, the one Church, one faith thing. But still the differences persisted. So the one God formula was developed…..with a whole slew theological terms to explain it, that are not in the scriptures. The reasoning was that if you imply that God is one person there cannot be a difference in character, nature, and substance and all events are attributed to that one person (God) The problem is the scriptures do not support this by direct explanation or even follow the storyline of events, particularly in the Gospels where Yahweh and Yeshua were interacting and referring to each other and referring to each other in different places. For example Christ said my Father in Heaven….Omnipresent? But Christ did not say, My Father everywhere, it is always My Father in Heaven.

Not sure what this has to do with the Trinity, as it is once again an argument against Modalism/Oneness theology. That's three major mistakes, in one post, while trying to argue against the Trinity but instead arguing against Modalism. It strongly appears that you really don't understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

The McKenzie Bible Dictionary explains it this way.... “The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God there are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly or formally a biblical belief.” Which hold true to the fact that the word Trinity does not occur in the Holy Bible.

Again, that the word "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible is irrelevant as to whether or not the doctrine is true. We use all sorts of words that aren't in the Bible to sum up biblical beliefs. That the belief wasn't given more structure and formulation until after the Edict of Milan shouldn't surprise anyone. It's rather hard and likely not a priority to make time for serious, ecumenical, theological development when there is persecution and survival takes priority. But, it's rather late formulation also doesn't mean it isn't biblical.

What absolutely isn't biblical is that Christians worship three separate Gods. One God; three divine persons.

 

[Grailhunter]

When God says, I alone am LORD. It means He “I” and no one else is the true YHWH. “I” and “he”:are single person pronouns. Even in Greek.
There is one “I” who alone is the true God.
The Holy Spirit is not another YHWH and is never referred to as such.
The Father, who alone is the true God, manifests Himself by His own Spirit. The Father’s own Spirit comes forth from the Father and is given to others.
The Father’s holy habitation is in heaven and He sends His spirit from there. He does not send another person, nor does a person get poured out.
He sends what already belongs to Him by which gives Him alone the glory.

What are you calling His Spirit?

 

[Grailhunter]

Claiming to be the Son of God isn't blasphemy in Jewish law. No laws about saying such a thing being blasphemy. The Jews themselves also said they are sons of God (John 8:39). That only exposes their hypocrisy and willingness to kill him over false accusations.

No Law because the Mosaic Law does not address Yahweh having a Son.

But yes the Jews would take offence to it.
If they caught a Jew worshiping any other God but Yahweh, they would call it Idolatry and things would not go good for that Jew.

 

[Grailhunter]

Jesus also quoted from Daniel 7:13, where he spoke of the prophecy of the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven. The high priest should have been pretty familiar with this because Daniel 7:13 speaks of an exclusively human Messiah who isn't himself God. i.e., the Son of man and Ancient of Days aren't the same person. If they new their Scripture they would have seen Jesus denied being God. Or perhaps they knew and didn't care?

Daniel is not debatable because it can be interpreted different ways.
If I remember He only references the abomination of desolation in Daniel.