Bible Study Understanding this verse

[Fastfredy0]

Gen 6:6-7, Ex 32:14. These are just a couple of examples of where God regretted, repented, or changed His mind. God also changed His mind several times in response to Lot's request in Gen 18.

I don't think you will find any respectable theologian that agrees with you. Send be to a website that agrees. That being said, you did not explain the contradiction between the verses you sited and 1 Samuel 15:29 “He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind.”
I gave my reasoning (you don't have to accept it), now you explain the contradiction.
Also see https://www.gotquestions.org/God-change-mind.html

Similarly, Rom 5:8 says that while we were still sinners God loved us

Romans was written to the saints. Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, loved by God, called as saints. The definition of saints is the elect. Therefore, your verse does not prove your point.
Psalm 5:5 says God hates some people. Your assertion means you believe God loves and hates some people. How do you explain that?
If God loves everyone without exception, why does he give billions of people not opportunity to be saved for billions have died without ever hearing the gospel that is necessary for salvation.

Those in Hell were loved. Agape love is not necessarily giving the greatest good to someone, but wanting (being concerned with) the greatest good for them.

Premise 1: God wants the greatest good for everyone without exception
Premise 2: God sends people to hell
Conclusion: Existence in Hell is as good as existence in heaven (it doesn't get better than an eternal vacation in hell.
Ignoring the ridiculous syllogism you've proposed ... even if I believed we can control God by our free will .... if God wanted our greatest good and He knew we would not have saving faith then all He has to do is have us die at birth or miscarriage and then the person would go to heaven (assuming 'age of accountability is true). Problem solved.

John 3:16 says "world". It also says "whoever". The verse is talking about sinners. It is not talking about the Elect. God loves the whole world, and whatever sinner believes the Gospel about His Son will be saved.

Long story ....
If you insist, I can email a response.

 

[for_his_glory]

Again, my quote. "I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father,mother, and brother and sister, for nothing. Something occurs that must cause this hate."

I don't know how to be any clearer.

Quantrill

You are still saying we are to hate (abhor, detests) our father and mother as I do not think this is what Jesus meant as it would contradict the command to honor your father and mother, but to know you have to place Christ above them giving Him first place in your life.

You said that Jesus is not only saying that we just hate father, mother, brother and sister, for nothing, but what do you mean by "Something occurs that must cause this hate?

I really am trying to understand you.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't think you will find any respectable theologian that agrees with you. Send be to a website that agrees. That being said, you did not explain the contradiction between the verses you sited and 1 Samuel 15:29 “He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind.”
I gave my reasoning (you don't have to accept it), now you explain the contradiction.
Also see https://www.gotquestions.org/God-change-mind.html


Romans was written to the saints. Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, loved by God, called as saints. The definition of saints is the elect. Therefore, your verse does not prove your point.
Psalm 5:5 says God hates some people. Your assertion means you believe God loves and hates some people. How do you explain that?
If God loves everyone without exception, why does he give billions of people not opportunity to be saved for billions have died without ever hearing the gospel that is necessary for salvation.

There is no contradiction between 1 Sam 15:29 and Gen 6:6-7 & Ex 32:14.

1 Sam 15:27-35 (KJV) says,
"And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
And Samuel said unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou.
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord thy God.
So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the Lord.
Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past.
And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal.
Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul.
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

Given verse 35, verse 29 cannot mean that God does not ever repent. God repented (regretted) making Saul king over Israel. He also repented of having made man in the first place (Gen 6:6-7). So, having evidence that God has repented, verse 29 can only mean that He will not repent of this decision/decree (removing the kingship from Saul).

Now, I agree that Romans was written to the saints at Rome. But that has no impact on the fact that the passages in question refers to His love for us when we were not saints. We were loved by Him when we were His enemies. As it says in 1 Tim 1:15, Jesus came to save sinners.

As for why God sends some to Hell without them hearing the Gospel and having the opportunity to be saved, they had the opportunity to not become lost in the first place. Rom 1:20-21 says, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
So then, the world speaks to everyone that God is Lord, and the fact that we all defy Him and make ourselves to be lord of our own life leaves us without excuse. It doesn't matter that someone didn't hear the Gospel preached. We had the knowledge that God is supreme, and we turned our back on Him. So He is justified in condemning us.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hang on, are you saying that the words came from Luke and Matthew, not Jesus?

No, as all that Matthew and Luke taught came by the teachings of Christ either first hand or another teaching them as being eyewitnesses of hearing Christ.

The difference between Matthew and Luke's writings is that Luke never met Jesus, but learned from those who followed Jesus and heard Him teach, like Matthew. I believe Luke added a little more in saying "and his own life also, he can not be my disciple. Comparing the two passages they read pretty much the same, but Luke being a Gentile, Greek scholar, physician and traveling companion of Paul used the Greek word Miseo for our English word hate.


Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


What Does The Word ‘Hate’ Mean In Greek?
miseo- to detest, to love less.

As a verb, it means ‘to hate’. It’s used in the following ways:
of malicious and unjustifiable feelings toward others (Matthew 10:22; Luke 6:22; John 3:20)
hatred or having been hated of a right feeling of aversion from what is evil

IMO I think Jesus was saying to avoid, or hate the evil that could be within the father, mother, brother and sister that would cause one to choose between family and Christ as in whom will they give first place to.

The full context of Matthew: Not Peace, but a Sword
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

The full context of Luke: The cost of discipleship:
Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luke 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luke 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
Luke 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luke 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's not true either:

To hate is to have an opposition of pleasure.

To have greater love for one than another does not mean you need to hate the other.

So they aren't saying the same thing.

To come to Jesus is not the same as being worthy of Him. Those too are different things.

Considering that the setting and audience were different, and He has used different words, it isn't reasonable to say that they are saying the same thing. You simply cannot twist the words enough to prove that. The only thing you can say is that there is some common teaching in them.

It is true that hating someone but loving Christ does mean that you love Christ more than that other person. But you can't say that loving Christ more than another person is the same as hating the other person.

Hopefully you can understand what I'm saying in post #104 as defining what the English word hate means compared to the Greek definition that Luke would have used.

 

[Quantrill]

You are still saying we are to hate (abhor, detests) our father and mother as I do not think this is what Jesus meant as it would contradict the command to honor your father and mother, but to know you have to place Christ above them giving Him first place in your life.

You said that Jesus is not only saying that we just hate father, mother, brother and sister, for nothing, but what do you mean by "Something occurs that must cause this hate?

I really am trying to understand you.

See, no matter how wrong you were in presenting what I said, you continue with your argument.

No you're not. I explained exactly what I meant in post #(7).

Quantrill

 

[Fastfredy0]

There is no contradiction between 1 Sam 15:29 and Gen 6:6-7 & Ex 32:14.

Well, if God repents (changes His mind) then NOTHING He has said can be counted upon to come true. His promise for your salvation is an empty promise, as he might "change his mind".

• Deuteronomy 7:9 “Know therefore that the LORD thy God, He is God, the faithful God”. But God might "change his mind".
• “O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?” (Psalm 89:8). But God might "change his mind".
• Psalm 119:90 Your faithfulness continues from generation to generation;
• 2 Corinthians 1:18 But [as surely as] God is faithful and means what He says, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No” [at the same time]. But God might "change his mind".
• Hebrews 10:23b for He who promised is reliable and trustworthy and faithful [to His word]; But God might "change his mind".
• Psalm 63:3 Because Your lovingkindness is better than life, My lips will praise You. But God might "change his mind".

Saying God changes His mind is a nice way of saying He is a liar at times.
I noticed you didn't give one commentator that agrees with you. I don't think any trained theologian believes God changes His mind. God word is worthless if He changes His mind.

We were loved by Him when we were His enemies.

Why point out that God loves the elect. We both agree to this. Find a verse where God says He loves a specific person we know is in Hell. Like, "Judas Iscariot, I love you". Or, "Esau, I love you even though I hate you."

So then, the world speaks to everyone that God is Lord, and the fact that we all defy Him and make ourselves to be lord of our own life leaves us without excuse.

Agreed. I assume we are talking about God loving everyone without exception. If so, what must a person born in the last 2000 years who will never hear of Christ do to be saved? Is it by faith and if so what must he believe? I know Paul's gospel, what is your gospel of salvation? Or is your definition of God's love so low that it doesn't include a chance of salvation?

 

[Serving Zion]

Hopefully you can understand what I'm saying in post #104 as defining what the English word hate means compared to the Greek definition that Luke would have used.

I just think you are having a hard time understanding how love can expect us to hate, so you are not accepting the meaning of the word and trying to twist it. If you go on doing that, you are going to keep finding that people won't agree with you. You also are twisting and misunderstanding what the Strong's is saying: it is not to love less than another person, it is to love less than if it was not hated.