Bible Study Understanding this verse

[Serving Zion]

One of the Ten Commandments says "Honor your father and mother", how is this consistent with hating one's parents in favour of being faithful to Christ?

Even though we put family second place to Christ, we are still obligated to honour them. Hating them is not honoring them.

It reminds me of an example of the perfection of God in Jesus: when He was a boy, they all went to Jerusalem and He found Himself engaged in conversation with the religious teachers in the temple. They were astounded at the wisdom and insight of His questions, and while He was doing that ministry there, His parents left Jerusalem assuming that Jesus would have joined the group that was travelling together. Jesus decided to stay in the temple and serve the needs of God to minister through Him, but His mother soon discovered that Jesus wasn't travelling with the group. After searching the whole group and couldn't find Him, she became worried, returned to Jerusalem and eventually found Him in the temple. She was upset with Him, saying "why did you make us worry?" And He asked her "why did you worry at all? ... Don't you know that I ought to be about my Father's business?".

In that example it shows that her lack of faith had caused her to not trust God and to not trust Him, and perhaps most hurtful, to be angry at Him for having been doing the good deeds of a servant to God (eg Proverbs 17:13). Also keep in mind that Mary had knowledge from the start of the purpose upon His life (Luke 1:35-38). It is then written that although He had preferred to remain in Jerusalem doing His Father's work, "nevertheless He returned with His mother and remained obedient to her".

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, actually, I am serving Christ who said to hate your father and members of your own family when they come in between Him and you.

Whether or not we serve the same God is, I guess, up to you.

Quantrill

Then why did God say to honor your mother and father if we are just to turn around and hate them and follow Christ. I don't think God would contradict Himself. It's about putting Christ first above our family in our discipleship as a faithful servant. If you want to hate your family then that is between you and God.

 

[for_his_glory]

Easy to answer clearly so that even a child could understand.
Just say:

1. YES or
2. NO or
3. I DON'T KNOW or
4. I DON'T WANT TO ANSWER

.... your response implicitly suggests YOU DON'T WANT TO ANSWER, BUT DON"T WANT TO SAY SO so you will be elusive. Hey, if that's the best you got, so be it.

I can't see how these can be yes or no answers. Nothing in what I gave, especially with those scriptures, suggest anything other than you not accepting my answers as they are not what you are looking for. I can only give that which is already written in the scriptures.

 

[Quantrill]

Then why did God say to honor your mother and father if we are just to turn around and hate them and follow Christ. I don't think God would contradict Himself. It's about putting Christ first above our family in our discipleship as a faithful servant. If you want to hate your family then that is between you and God.

I never said we just 'turn around and hate our family'. Read my post #(7).

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

I never said we just 'turn around and hate our family'. Read my post #(7).

Quantrill

Ya, you did and all through this thread you keep repeating "hate is hate". Here is the first part of your post #7 as you use hate all through that post.

Post #7 - I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father, mother, and brother and sister, for nothing. Something occurs that must cause this hate. The same verse found in (Luke 14:26) is also found in (Matt. 10:37). But the word 'hate' is not used.

 

[for_his_glory]

I can't see how these can be yes or no answers. Nothing in what I gave, especially with those scriptures, suggest anything other than you not accepting my answers as they are not what you are looking for. I can only give that which is already written in the scriptures.

I don't think there is anything funny about my post #83. You asked two questions and I gave two answers. Sorry if you can not accept them as being my answers.

 

[Serving Zion]

The same verse found in (Luke 14:26) is also found in (Matt. 10:37). But the word 'hate' is not used.

What makes you say that they are the same verse? Did you accidentally reference the wrong part of Matthew?

 

[Quantrill]

Ya, you did and all through this thread you keep repeating "hate is hate". Here is the first part of your post #7 as you use hate all through that post.

Post #7 - I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father, mother, and brother and sister, for nothing. Something occurs that must cause this hate. The same verse found in (Luke 14:26) is also found in (Matt. 10:37). But the word 'hate' is not used.

I don't know what your problem is. I specifically said, "I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father, mother, and brother....Something occurs"

So, no I didn't.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't know what your problem is. I specifically said, "I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father, mother, and brother....Something occurs"

So, no I didn't.

Quantrill

Wow, you argue against that which you stated? What am I missing in your post #7? Was it not you that has been stating "hate is hate"? Am I misunderstanding what you have said? Maybe you need to clarify for me as I must be missing something in your interpretation.

 

[for_his_glory]

What makes you say that they are the same verse? Did you accidentally reference the wrong part of Matthew?

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I see them as the same teaching written by two different Apostles in what Jesus said to them. Jesus is teaching us to give Him first place as submitting, surrendering to Him above all that is in our life that includes our family and even ourselves, but yet to love and honor our father, mother, sisters and brothers.

Look at Matthew 10:34-39
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

In my understanding of these verse is that Jesus is simply saying do not let your own family be a hindrance as far as you picking up your cross (being in submission to Christ, not family) and follow Him. The parable of the great banquet in Luke 14:12-24 continues with vs. 25-27 which is about the cost of discipleship also like that of Jesus final judgement in what we have done for Him as He instructed in what is written in Matthew 25:31-40 that we should never allow anyone to hinder us, but that we must be about our Father's business first and foremost.

 

[Quantrill]

Wow, you argue against that which you stated? What am I missing in your post #7? Was it not you that has been stating "hate is hate"? Am I misunderstanding what you have said? Maybe you need to clarify for me as I must be missing something in your interpretation.

Yes, you are missing something. I explained it already.

Quantrill

 

[Serving Zion]

I see them as the same teaching written by two different Apostles in what Jesus said to them. Jesus is teaching us to give Him first place as submitting, surrendering to Him above all that is in our life that includes our family and even ourselves, but yet to love and honor our father, mother, sisters and brothers.

So is it true that you see they are two different events, where Jesus is speaking to two different sets of people on two separate occasions? That's what I would expect to find if they were said to be two different teachings, but you have said they are the same teaching.

Maybe it is that you are looking for the common teaching that is in them and even going so far as to say that there is no difference in what the teachings are aiming to convey. I still wouldn't say that they are the same teaching though, because they do contain differences and they are saying two different things: one says that our love for Jesus must be greater than our love for our family, yet the other says that we must hate our parents.

 

[humble soul]

Its a verse the church seems to hide from as it hardly ever if ever gets talked about, but i dont hide from anything Jesus said so lets discuss it.

Basicaly Jesus said to a mulitude if they dont hate there own family and themselves they cannot be his diciple, and we know that would contradict Jesus preaching about loving one another and his commandemnt to love thy neighbour as thyself and the law of God is love. And the word hate acturally means hate in the original there is no way around it as that is what he said.

So whats the context and reason for Jesus saying that?. Is it just not understanding the text properly?. Was it that he knew no one could follow him and understand what he was doing for the world so when he said that it was so they could see in there hearts the love they acturally have for themsleves and for there families and neighbour as love is the ultimate so they could all see it clearly yet cannt do what he was going to do for them so they could not follow him?.

Is he talking about just hating the sin in the person not the actural person themsleves and its just not clarified?.

I dont know thats why im asking.

How does one explain that verse?

Good question Dan.
It means sometimes we have to risk being unpopular even with our own family. We have to listen to our conscience above all.because our conscience is God.
Don't try to upset your family but don't try to please them either. If a certain issue requires you to choose between family and conscience, always choose conscience.

 

[for_his_glory]

So is it true that you see they are two different events, where Jesus is speaking to two different sets of people on two separate occasions? That's what I would expect to find if they were said to be two different teachings, but you have said they are the same teaching.

Maybe it is that you are looking for the common teaching that is in them and even going so far as to say that there is no difference in what the teachings are aiming to convey. I still wouldn't say that they are the same teaching though, because they do contain differences and they are saying two different things: one says that our love for Jesus must be greater than our love for our family, yet the other says that we must hate our parents.

We know Luke was not a part of the twelve disciples, but a close traveling companion to Paul in whom I believe was a Greek physician who lived in Antioch so his writing style is a little different than Matthew, but still saying the same thing, but in a different way.

We know by Strong's that the Greek definition of the word hate also includes "to love less" which in my understanding would mean that we are to love (honor) our father, mother, sisters and brothers a little less giving them second place in our life as we give Christ first place in our life picking up our cross to follow Him without any hindrances.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, you are missing something. I explained it already.

Quantrill

Well if you don't want to clarify that of what I must be missing in your post #7 when you said "hate is hate" then turn around and say "I never said we just 'turn around and hate our family'. Read my post #(7)" how am I to understand what you meant? If you do not want to explain that of what I am possibly misunderstanding then all I can say is you are arguing against your self or you just want to argue for the fun of arguing with others like you have been doing a lot lately, which will not be tolerated.

 

[Quantrill]

I never said we just 'turn around and hate our family'. Read my post #(7).

Quantrill

Ya, you did and all through this thread you keep repeating "hate is hate". Here is the first part of your post #7 as you use hate all through that post.

Post #7 - I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father, mother, and brother and sister, for nothing. Something occurs that must cause this hate. The same verse found in (Luke 14:26) is also found in (Matt. 10:37). But the word 'hate' is not used.

I don't know what your problem is. I specifically said, "I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father, mother, and brother....Something occurs"

So, no I didn't.

Quantrill

Again, my quote. "I would say that Jesus is not saying that we just hate our father,mother, and brother and sister, for nothing. Something occurs that must cause this hate."

I don't know how to be any clearer.

Quantrill

 

[Serving Zion]

We know Luke was not a part of the twelve disciples, but a close traveling companion to Paul in whom I believe was a Greek physician who lived in Antioch so his writing style is a little different than Matthew, but still saying the same thing, but in a different way.

We know by Strong's that the Greek definition of the word hate also includes "to love less" which in my understanding would mean that we are to love (honor) our father, mother, sisters and brothers a little less giving them second place in our life as we give Christ first place in our life picking up our cross to follow Him without any hindrances.

Hang on, are you saying that the words came from Luke and Matthew, not Jesus?

 

[Serving Zion]

but still saying the same thing

That's not true either:

To hate is to have an opposition of pleasure.

To have greater love for one than another does not mean you need to hate the other.

So they aren't saying the same thing.

To come to Jesus is not the same as being worthy of Him. Those too are different things.

Considering that the setting and audience were different, and He has used different words, it isn't reasonable to say that they are saying the same thing. You simply cannot twist the words enough to prove that. The only thing you can say is that there is some common teaching in them.

It is true that hating someone but loving Christ does mean that you love Christ more than that other person. But you can't say that loving Christ more than another person is the same as hating the other person.

 

[Doug Brents]

God has NEVER changes his mind. All scriptures referring to God changing his mind are anthropomorphic (or Scripture has serious contradictions which contradicts the Christian presupposition that "God does not contradict himself - lie). 1 Samuel 15:29 “He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind.”



Agreed, if by "us" you mean the elect. If by "us" you mean the unelect, then God did and always will hate (disfavor) them, evidence of which is they will be in the lake of fire.
John 3:16 assumes WORLD means everyone without exception ... See Appendix 1, also see discussion of John 3:16 in Systematic Theology attachment.
Romans 5:8 ... "US" in this verse is per Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, loved by God, called as saints. Since saints are the elect (1 Corinthians 1:2), Paul is speaking to the ELECT .... I think you wrongly assume US means every human ever to live.


Given: Agape (love) is defined as "Agape love is unconcerned with the self and concerned with the greatest good of another. Agape isn’t born just out of emotions, feelings, familiarity, or attraction, but from the will and as a choice. Agape requires faithfulness, commitment, and sacrifice without expecting anything in return." https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-does-agape-love-really-mean-in-the-bible.html

You have a premise I do not agree with; specifically, the use of the word WORLD. You assume is means everyone without exception. It has various meanings (see Appendix 1).
The definition of LOVE is "the greatest good of another without expecting anything in return", your use of the word "love" is invalid.
Premise 1: LOVE is "the greatest good of another without expecting anything in return"
Premise 2: Those in hell did not receive "the greatest good from God"
Conclusion: God does not love (give greatest good) to everyone without exception


Premise 1: the vast majority of humanity will be lost (agreed)
Premise 2: LOVE is "the greatest good of another" (agape definition)
Conclusion: Those in hell are not loved because they do not receive the greatest good from God.

Appendix 1
See the section on WORLD in the document I emailed you ... it has 5 pages of explanation.

Gen 6:6-7, Ex 32:14. These are just a couple of examples of where God regretted, repented, or changed His mind. God also changed His mind several times in response to Lot's request in Gen 18.

No, I do not mean just the Elect. I mean all mankind is loved by God. John 3:16 says "world". It also says "whoever". The verse is talking about sinners. It is not talking about the Elect. God loves the whole world, and whatever sinner believes the Gospel about His Son will be saved. Similarly, Rom 5:8 says that while we were still sinners God loved us (just as He loves all the world), and while we were still sinners (enemies of God) He sacrificed His Son to pay the ransom for any sinner who believes in the Son.

The grace of God in Jesus' death on the cross was retroactive through all time. It did not just cleanse those who come after Him, but also cleansed all those who came before Him who loved God, and followed Him (David as an example). David most assuredly will be in Heaven, but he sinned. Jesus' Blood washes back through history to cleanse him too.

The conclusion given to your two premises is wrong. Those in Hell were loved. Agape love is not necessarily giving the greatest good to someone, but wanting (being concerned with) the greatest good for them. God wants the greatest good for all mankind, but not everyone will receive it, because God is only going to save those who obey Him (Heb 5:9).

 

[JLB]

If we are to follow the Lord, we must come out from the boundaries and authority of our parents and our love and devotion to them and our family and be joined to our eternal Husband, to love, honor and obey Him.

It’s not about literally hating our parents, our family, as the nuances of the Hebrew language are dynamic, and have a much broader meaning than our native language of English.


On the other hand, in that culture, unbelieving Jews who are parents and members of the family still serving the religion of Judaism, (a religion that rejects Jesus as Messiah), could turn a follower of Christ back to Judaism if their devotion for Him was weak.


“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Ephesians 5:31-32





JLB