Bible Study Understanding this verse

[for_his_glory]

I agree that the verse does not say we should "abhor our family in disgust" as that would contradict scripture. That was not my question. I will try again:

Can God love and hate the same person?
Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

1. God can love them enough by His grace in hopes they would repent and turn back to Him. Ephesians 2:8-9

2. God rejects those that reject Him and His Son Christ Jesus for if they do not repent and turn back to Him then it is not God that damns them, but they who have damned themselves. Jude 1:11-19

 

[Fastfredy0]

1. God can love them enough by His grace in hopes they would repent and turn back to Him. Ephesians 2:8-9

2. God rejects those that reject Him and His Son Christ Jesus for if they do not repent and turn back to Him then it is not God that damns them, but they who have damned themselves. Jude 1:11-19

Re: My questions
1) Can God love and hate the same person?
2) Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

LOL ... I didn't think you would answer questions. Just required a YES or NO. You didn't do so.

I will simplify things ... you can tell me which premise is incorrect thus voiding the conclusion:
Question1 - Can God love and hate the same person?
Premise 1: God loves everyone without exception
Premise 2: Psalms 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And His soul hates the [malevolent] one who loves violence.
Conclusion: if you hold to the above 2 premises, then God loves and hates some people

Question 2 - Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?
Premise 1: God loves everyone without exception
Premise 2: All those who are not or will not be in Christ are evil (sons of Satan - the uncleaned)
Conclusion: if you hold to the above 2 premises, then a holy God loves them that are evil

Definition of Holy as it pertains to God:
Isaiah 6:3 “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts; and the whole earth is full of his glory”
Holiness, is to be regarded not as a distinct attribute, but as the resultant of all God's moral attributes together. Holiness means not only that He is separate from all that is unclean and evil but also that He is positively pure and thus distinct from all others. (author unknown)

 

[Quantrill]

Caveat: I am not confident that I know what Luke 14:26 means so I can't answer the theme of the post to my own satisfaction ... I do have an idea of what LOVE and HATE mean and I don't think most people do. The understanding of what LOVE and HATE mean is essential to understanding any verse using those words.

Short Story ....Love is a volition to favor and Hate is a volition to disfavor.

Long Story
LOVE
Love Defined: God’s love is an intellectual (passionless) disposition to favor according to the ‘divine likeness’ of the object (God himself and those “in Christ” being the most lovely

LOVE - an act of mind and will, the determined care for the welfare of something or someone. It might well include strong emotion, but its distinguishing characteristics were the dedication and commitment of choice.

Love hates moral evil and clings to righteousness. It is also an error to interpret “God is love” to mean God is only love…using love as a paring knife to cut away his power, justice, and wrath against sin, leaving only unconditional acceptance and positive regard, which is mere “amiable weakness” and “sentiment.” Christians become imbalanced if they teach that God is primarily love, as if love trumped all other attributes of God. Without God’s love, none of his other attributes would be beautiful, but love sweetens all of his attributes. Hebrews 1:9 “You have loved righteousness [integrity, virtue, uprightness in purpose] and have hated lawlessness [injustice, sin] Stephen Charnock

Aheb , the Hebrew word for love used in Deuteronomy 6:5, refers primarily to an act of mind and will, the determined care for the welfare of something or someone. It might well include strong emotion, but its distinguishing characteristics were the dedication and commitment of choice. It is the love that recognizes and chooses to follow that which is righteous, noble, and true, regardless of what one’s feelings in a matter might be. It is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek agapa image (Image) in the New Testament, the verb of intelligent, purposeful, and committed love that is an act of the will. This love is in contrast to the emotion and tender affection of phile image (image) and the physical, sensual love of eros (which is not used in the New Testament). John MacArthur – New Testament Commentary

Consider: If an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. Vincent Cheung Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

There is a difference between the intra-trinitarian love of the triune God and the love God has for his creatures. God's intra-trinitarian love is eternal and therefore natural and necessary. However, the love of God in relation to his creatures is not necessary, but rather voluntary. God loves all things according to the degree of loveliness (Divine likeness) in it.


Wrath/Hate
Strictly speaking, wrath is not an attribute of God’s nature, but is his “holy justice against sin”. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology Job 35:7

Hate in man can be emotional ... God's hatred is not emotional

“If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]” Consider: If an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. Vincent Cheung

Jonathan Edwards: if God’s infinite hatred against sin included “pain and grief” over each sin, then the countless sins committed by demons and men would cause God to “suffer infinite pain, every day” and make him “the most miserable of all beings”—whereas in truth, God is “perfectly happy,” for he sovereignly uses the evil of sin for his glory.

‘Love’ and ‘hate’ are not emotions that God feels but actions that he carries out.” Tom Constable

If he doth whatsoever he pleaseth, nothing can make him miserable, since misery consists in those things which happen against our will. Stephen Charnock

Strictly speaking, wrath is not an attribute of God. It would be more appropriate to say that the wrath of God is the manifestation of the holiness of God in the context of sinfulness of man. So, within the trinitarian fellowship that holiness is expressed amongst the members of the trinity but not wrath. Sinclair Ferguson

I don't think you know what love is. Much less hate.

Quantrill

 

[Fastfredy0]

I don't think you know what love is. Much less hate.

That's possible ... but then I relied on the writings of many established, published theologians that are in general agreement with each other as opposed to the authority of your definition(s) ..... oh, you didn't give any.
Hmmmm .... if a judge was to decide ... hmmm ....

 

[Quantrill]

Just because we do not agree doesn't mean I ignored every scripture that uses the word hate. Love less does not mean hate in the sense of intense dislike, detest, abhor, abominate, loathe or enmity towards another. Did Jesus hate His mother, brothers, sisters or even his disciples, no, He loved them very much. God hates the evil that's in a person and rejects them as being not His own, unless they repent and turn back to Him.

Jesus told you to hate your father and mother and children if and when they come between you and Him.

Jesus denied His mother and brothers as they were part of Israel that denied Him and His relationship to the Father.

Jesus asked nothing of you that He did not Himself do.

As I said, go through out the Scriptures and see how the word used for hate is used. It is not 'love less'. It is hate. The Scriptures I gave you testify to this. Do you agree?

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

That's possible ... but then I relied on the writings of many established, published theologians that are in general agreement with each other as opposed to the authority of your definition(s) ..... oh, you didn't give any.
Hmmmm .... if a judge was to decide ... hmmm ....

Hence your problem. You turn to worldy definitions and judges.

Are you married? Tell your wife next time, you have decided to love her. See how far that goes. I wouldn't bring roses...you will probably be eatin em.

Quantill

 

[Doug Brents]

That's a hypothetical question ... I would have to go through it to answer. *sorry, don't mean to "cop out"*


Easier question ... I hate what he did.


As in go to the execution ... .I don't know.
Aside: Anyone that murders their mother probably has a long, evil history ... said history I am not aware of.

Not sure where we are going with these questions.

Yes, a hypothetical question.
But I want to see your answers, please.

No, not necessarily go to the execution, but would you testify against him? Will you make sure he is punished for his crime?

Just answer the questions the way you feel them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Re: My questions
1) Can God love and hate the same person?
2) Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

LOL ... I didn't think you would answer questions. Just required a YES or NO. You didn't do so.

I will simplify things ... you can tell me which premise is incorrect thus voiding the conclusion:
Question1 - Can God love and hate the same person?
Premise 1: God loves everyone without exception
Premise 2: Psalms 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And His soul hates the [malevolent] one who loves violence.
Conclusion: if you hold to the above 2 premises, then God loves and hates some people

Question 2 - Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?
Premise 1: God loves everyone without exception
Premise 2: All those who are not or will not be in Christ are evil (sons of Satan - the uncleaned)
Conclusion: if you hold to the above 2 premises, then a holy God loves them that are evil

Definition of Holy as it pertains to God:
Isaiah 6:3 “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts; and the whole earth is full of his glory”
Holiness, is to be regarded not as a distinct attribute, but as the resultant of all God's moral attributes together. Holiness means not only that He is separate from all that is unclean and evil but also that He is positively pure and thus distinct from all others. (author unknown)

I answered your questions with scripture in my post #61. I'm sorry if my answers do not comply with your understanding, or in what or how you wanted me to answer them, but this is my answer to your questions.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus told you to hate your father and mother and children if and when they come between you and Him.

Jesus denied His mother and brothers as they were part of Israel that denied Him and His relationship to the Father.

Jesus asked nothing of you that He did not Himself do.

As I said, go through out the Scriptures and see how the word used for hate is used. It is not 'love less'. It is hate. The Scriptures I gave you testify to this. Do you agree?

Quantrill

I'm not sure if you know what love and hate is by God's definition within the full context from Genesis to Revelation, not Webster's or other concordances.

I love my husband less than I love God. I love God more than I love my husband. This is the Biblical definition of love less which is what Jesus said. If you think Jesus hated (detested, abhor) His mother, brothers, sisters and even His own disciples then you are not serving the God that I serve.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hence your problem. You turn to worldy definitions and judges.

Are you married? Tell your wife next time, you have decided to love her. See how far that goes. I wouldn't bring roses...you will probably be eatin em.

Quantill

And Dispensationalism is not worldly teachings!!!

 

[Fastfredy0]

Yes, a hypothetical question.
But I want to see your answers, please.

No, not necessarily go to the execution, but would you testify against him? Will you make sure he is punished for his crime?

Just answer the questions the way you feel them.

Lord knows I don't like to "duck" questions ... but there is SO MUCH under lying background information missing in the question that I don't know what my answer would be.

Let me ask you, your son murders your wife right in front of you. You have him arrested, charged, tried, and convicted of murder. He is on death row, and about to be executed.
Do you love him? Or do you hate him?
Do you love what he did? Or do you hate what he did?
Will you see him executed anyway?

Sorry, but I am looking at the questions and there is no way to answer them objectively. I don't know the underlying circumstances. Maybe if you asked a more direct question that got to the point of these question I could answer that.

 

[Quantrill]

I'm not sure if you know what love and hate is by God's definition within the full context from Genesis to Revelation, not Webster's or other concordances.

I love my husband less than I love God. I love God more than I love my husband. This is the Biblical definition of love less which is what Jesus said. If you think Jesus hated (detested, abhor) His mother, brothers, sisters and even His own disciples then you are not serving the God that I serve.

Well, actually, I am serving Christ who said to hate your father and members of your own family when they come in between Him and you.

Whether or not we serve the same God is, I guess, up to you.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

And Dispensationalism is not worldly teachings!!!

No. It is Scriptural.

Quantrill

 

[Doug Brents]

Lord knows I don't like to "duck" questions ... but there is SO MUCH under lying background information missing in the question that I don't know what my answer would be.


Sorry, but I am looking at the questions and there is no way to answer them objectively. I don't know the underlying circumstances. Maybe if you asked a more direct question that got to the point of these question I could answer that.

These are not trick questions. I am trying to understand you understanding of a father's love.
I am talking about murder here, not a coup de grace.

You loved your son before he murdered your wife. Do you love him still after he murders her?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I answered your questions with scripture in my post #61. I'm sorry if my answers do not comply with your understanding, or in what or how you wanted me to answer them, but this is my answer to your questions.

My questions
1) Can God love and hate the same person?
2) Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

I found your answer in post #61 evasive. But I understand your hesitancy to speak plainly.

 

[Fastfredy0]

These are not trick questions. I am trying to understand you understanding of a father's love.
I am talking about murder here, not a coup de grace.

You loved your son before he murdered your wife. Do you love him still after he murders her?

Ah, this is easier for me to answer.

I probably still love (favor) him, but not as much. If this hypothetical son has done enough things wrong then it is possible my love (favor) could turn to disfavor.


Aside: I DO NOT CONFLATE my understanding of love for a person with God's love for a person. Specifically, God is immutable and I am not. God is perfect and therefore cannot change as any change would be for the better or worse and therefore his love (favor) or hate (disfavor) for a person is as He is, eternal/unchanging.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ah, this is easier for me to answer.

I probably still love (favor) him, but not as much. If this hypothetical son has done enough things wrong then it is possible my love (favor) could turn to disfavor.


Aside: I DO NOT CONFLATE my understanding of love for a person with God's love for a person. Specifically, God is immutable and I am not. God is perfect and therefore cannot change as any change would be for the better or worse and therefore his love (favor) or hate (disfavor) for a person is as He is, eternal/unchanging.

Ahh, then how did God "repent"? He changed His mind. Was His mind not perfect (His choice perfect) before His mind was changed?

The answer (from God's perspective, as far as I can tell from Scripture);
Does God still love the son (us) who murdered His Son, violated His law, and broke His heart? - YES! (John 3:16, Rom 5:8)
But God will still send those He loves to Hell, because even though He loves the whole World (ever single soul), not every soul will love and honor Him. The vast majority of humanity will be lost, but God still loves them. Sin does not stop God from loving us. It just stops him from giving us His greater blessings.

 

[for_his_glory]

My questions
1) Can God love and hate the same person?
2) Can God love that which is evil and will not be cleansed?

I found your answer in post #61 evasive. But I understand your hesitancy to speak plainly.

Sorry, thought it was plain enough as I was not avoiding your question, but answering it. Can't possibly make it any clearer. Could be that it was not the answer you were looking for or hoping for

 

[Fastfredy0]

Ahh, then how did God "repent"? He changed His mind. Was His mind not perfect (His choice perfect) before His mind was changed?

God has NEVER changes his mind. All scriptures referring to God changing his mind are anthropomorphic (or Scripture has serious contradictions which contradicts the Christian presupposition that "God does not contradict himself - lie). 1 Samuel 15:29 “He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind.”

Does God still love the son (us) who murdered His Son, violated His law, and broke His heart? - YES! (John 3:16, Rom 5:8)

Agreed, if by "us" you mean the elect. If by "us" you mean the unelect, then God did and always will hate (disfavor) them, evidence of which is they will be in the lake of fire.
John 3:16 assumes WORLD means everyone without exception ... See Appendix 1, also see discussion of John 3:16 in Systematic Theology attachment.
Romans 5:8 ... "US" in this verse is per Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, loved by God, called as saints. Since saints are the elect (1 Corinthians 1:2), Paul is speaking to the ELECT .... I think you wrongly assume US means every human ever to live.

But God will still send those He loves to Hell, because even though He loves the whole World (ever single soul), not every soul will love and honor Him. The vast majority of humanity will be lost, but God still loves them. Sin does not stop God from loving us. It just stops him from giving us His greater blessings.

Given: Agape (love) is defined as "Agape love is unconcerned with the self and concerned with the greatest good of another. Agape isn’t born just out of emotions, feelings, familiarity, or attraction, but from the will and as a choice. Agape requires faithfulness, commitment, and sacrifice without expecting anything in return." https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-does-agape-love-really-mean-in-the-bible.html

You have a premise I do not agree with; specifically, the use of the word WORLD. You assume is means everyone without exception. It has various meanings (see Appendix 1).
The definition of LOVE is "the greatest good of another without expecting anything in return", your use of the word "love" is invalid.
Premise 1: LOVE is "the greatest good of another without expecting anything in return"
Premise 2: Those in hell did not receive "the greatest good from God"
Conclusion: God does not love (give greatest good) to everyone without exception

the vast majority of humanity will be lost, but God still loves them.

Premise 1: the vast majority of humanity will be lost (agreed)
Premise 2: LOVE is "the greatest good of another" (agape definition)
Conclusion: Those in hell are not loved because they do not receive the greatest good from God.

Appendix 1
See the section on WORLD in the document I emailed you ... it has 5 pages of explanation.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Sorry, thought it was plain enough as I was not avoiding your question, but answering it. Can't possibly make it any clearer. Could be that it was not the answer you were looking for or hoping for

Easy to answer clearly so that even a child could understand.
Just say:

1. YES or
2. NO or
3. I DON'T KNOW or
4. I DON'T WANT TO ANSWER

.... your response implicitly suggests YOU DON'T WANT TO ANSWER, BUT DON"T WANT TO SAY SO so you will be elusive. Hey, if that's the best you got, so be it.