Unique, Not Only-Begotten

[Runningman]

"Unique" is as opposed to other "sons of God", Gen. 6:3, Job 1:6, Ps. 82:6. Those are divine beings, they may be OF God, but they are NOT God, they are created beings in charge of human affairs. Jesus is not one of them, He is God in human flesh above all of them.

If son of God does not mean being God for them then it doesn't mean Jesus is God either.

 

[JLB]

I know from above, the Son who was, his spirit, was in the body prepared for Him.

The Net bible has "He was manifested in the flesh". I contacted via email Dr Dan Wallace who was on the translation team and is a trinitarian, about that translation and He informed me the reasoning is in the notes. I asked him did He agree with that reasoning, and he stated "yes"
1 Timothy 3:16 net bible
And we all agree,[a] our religion contains amazing revelation:[b]

He[c] was revealed in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,[d]
seen by angels,
proclaimed among Gentiles,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

reasoning notes given for "He was revealed in the flesh"
Good luck understanding them. (smile)
1 Timothy 3:16 tc The Byzantine text along with a few other witnesses (א3 Ac C2 D2 Ψ [88] 1241 1505 1739 1881 M al vgms) read θεός (theos, “God”) for ὅς (hos, “who”). Most significant among these witnesses is 1739; the second correctors of some of the other mss tend to conform to the medieval standard, the Byzantine text, and add no independent voice to the textual problem. At least two mss have ὁ θεός (69 88), a reading that is a correction on the anarthrous θεός. On the other side, the masculine relative pronoun ὅς is strongly supported by א* A* C* F G 33 365 1175 Did Epiph. Significantly, D* and virtually the entire Latin tradition read the neuter relative pronoun, ὅ (ho, “which”), a reading that indirectly supports ὅς since it could not easily have been generated if θεός had been in the text. Thus, externally, there is no question as to what should be considered the Ausgangstext: The Alexandrian and Western traditions are decidedly in favor of ὅς. Internally, the evidence is even stronger. What scribe would change θεός to ὅς intentionally? “Who” is not only a theologically pale reading by comparison; it also is much harder (since the relative pronoun has no obvious antecedent, probably the reason for the neuter pronoun of the Western tradition). Intrinsically, the rest of 3:16, beginning with ὅς, appears to form a hymn with six strophes. As such, it is a text that is seemingly incorporated into the letter without syntactical connection. Hence, not only should we not look for an antecedent for ὅς (as is often done by commentators), but the relative pronoun thus is not too hard a reading (or impossible, as Dean Burgon believed). Once the genre is taken into account, the relative pronoun fits neatly into the author’s style (cf. also Col 1:15; Phil 2:6 for other places in which the relative pronoun begins a hymn, as was often the case in poetry of the day). On the other hand, with θεός written as a nomen sacrum, it would have looked very much like the relative pronoun: q-=s vs. os. Thus, it may have been easy to confuse one for the other. This, of course, does not solve which direction the scribes would go, although given their generally high Christology and the bland and ambiguous relative pronoun, it is doubtful that they would have replaced θεός with ὅς. How then should we account for θεός? It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ and clear up the syntax at the same time. Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as א A C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ. The neuter relative pronoun is certainly a “correction” of ὅς, conforming the gender to that of the neuter μυστήριον (mustērion, “mystery”). What is significant in this reading is (1) since virtually all the Western witnesses have either the masculine or neuter relative pronoun, the θεός reading was apparently unknown to them in the 2nd century (when the “Western” text seems to have originated, though its place of origination was most likely in the east); they thus supply strong indirect evidence of ὅς outside of Egypt in the 2nd century; (2) even 2nd century scribes were liable to misunderstand the genre, feeling compelled to alter the masculine relative pronoun because it appeared to them to be too harsh. The evidence, therefore, for ὅς is quite compelling, both externally and internally. As TCGNT 574 notes, “no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεός; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς or ὅ; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός.” Thus, the cries of certain groups that θεός has to be original must be seen as special pleading. To argue that heretics tampered with the text here is self-defeating, for most of the Western fathers who quoted the verse with the relative pronoun were quite orthodox, strongly affirming the deity of Christ. They would have dearly loved such a reading as θεός. Further, had heretics introduced a variant to θεός, a far more natural choice would have been Χριστός (Christos, “Christ”) or κύριος (kurios, “Lord”), since the text is self-evidently about Christ, but it is not self-evidently a proclamation of his deity. (See ExSyn 341-42, for a summary discussion on this issue and additional bibliographic references.)tn Grk “who.”sn This passage has been typeset as poetry because many scholars regard this passage as poetic or hymnic. These terms are used broadly to refer to the genre of writing, not to the content. There are two broad criteria for determining if a passage is poetic or hymnic: “(a) stylistic: a certain rhythmical lilt when the passages are read aloud, the presence of parallelismus membrorum (i.e., an arrangement into couplets), the semblance of some metre, and the presence of rhetorical devices such as alliteration, chiasmus, and antithesis; and (b) linguistic: an unusual vocabulary, particularly the presence of theological terms, which is different from the surrounding context” (P. T. O’Brien, Philippians [NIGTC], 188-89). Classifying a passage as hymnic or poetic is important because understanding this genre can provide keys to interpretation. However, not all scholars agree that the above criteria are present in this passage, so the decision to typeset it as poetry should be viewed as a tentative decision about its genre

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV


Theos — G2316

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
   1. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
   2. Christ, the second person of the trinity
   3. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges
         

If you want to believe some “Johnny come lately” modern version of the Bible and some commentary that as you say you don’t understand, that twists the Greek word THEOS into some obscure meaning then that is your choice.

If you believe the following writers of the New Testament used the word THEOS to mean a man then that is your choice.



The Apostle John —

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, G2316 and the Word was God. G2316

The same was in the beginning with God. G2316
John 1:1-2


The Apostle Paul —


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God G2316 was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God G2316 and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


JLB

 

[Randy]

John 17:5 says that Jesus Christ has the SAME GLORY with the Father from eternity past. This ONLY means, that BOTH are Almighty GOD

I didn't read "same glory" I read the glory I had "with you"

And the context to me is "return to me" the glory I had "with you" before the world began.
I have noted the glory Jesus had and has with His God and Father.
If you believe Jesus's own testimony then the Father is His God.
I don't know about you but usually "one's" own God is the greater.

 

[JLB]

IF the Father "begot" Jesus Christ, then Jesus CANNOT be COEQUAL with the Father, nor, YHWH, nor, God in the same sense as the Father is! which is HERESY!

The Father beget His only Begotten Son before creation, and gave the work of creation to His Son.


God the Son created all things according to the will of God the Father.


God the Son Is YHWH the LORD God.

• And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,

Whose feet will stand on the Mount of Olives on the Day of the LORD?
The Father or the Son?



And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:4-5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

Who will return with the saints at the end of the age, on the Day of the LORD?

The Father or the Son?


Here’s a hint —


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10




JLB

 

[Randy]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 NKJV


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles,

I have already addressed this. "He" was manifested in the flesh.

believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16 KJV


Theos — G2316

1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2. the Godhead, trinity
   1. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
   2. Christ, the second person of the trinity
   3. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
   1. refers to the things of God
   2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
4. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
   1. God's representative or viceregent
      1. of magistrates and judges

If you want to believe some “Johnny come lately” modern version of the Bible and some commentary that as you say you don’t understand, that twists the Greek word THEOS into some obscure meaning then that is your choice.

If you believe the following writers of the New Testament used the word THEOS to mean a man then that is your choice.

One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God is not a distinct person from the Father as is His Son.

The Apostle John —

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, G2316 and the Word was God. G2316

The same was in the beginning with God. G2316
John 1:1-2


The Apostle Paul —

The honest reading is the nature of the word as God which I believe in (all the fullness of God dwells in the Son)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God G2316 was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the

A repeat

Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God G2316 and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

The only true God -Jesus
Jude
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Again one God and one Lord -not one God Father and Son and Holy Spirit though the Fathers own Spirit would also have His very nature as does Jesus in whom all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Jesus is Lord at Gods command
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

JLB

 

[Randy]

The problem is yours, in that at it's root is the fact that you believe that there is nothing about the Spiritual power of the Creator of all things that you are not equally privy to .
Nothing God can withhold from you knowing and that cannot be fully explained in human terms by you.
Such you believe your station to be.
God says in His Word that you and me do not even have a full & complete knowledge of our own spiritual nature, let alone have full knowledge of God's nature.

I asked for and received understanding. Jesus is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.

Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I'm not following own my heart but my Lord Jesus.

And yet you think you can claim to fully know everything about God ?

I can understand Jesus as a begotten Son before all things. I can see Col 1:19 was from the will of another. (was pleased) So what are you talking about?

Not possible my friend.
The example of some things regarding the Godhead only being understood by God , and forever hidden from us is also given in His Word in the moment that Jesus hung upon the cross . and the entire earth was covered in darkness.
No human eye was allowed to witness the transaction that took place between God the Father & God the Son.
Hidden for all eternity from us .
Do you believe in heaven you will finally be allowed to witness what happened that moment that God covered the earth in complete darkness so that no eye could see what transpired between God the Father & God the Son ?
If you believe that when you leave this earth and are in the presence of Jesus in heaven that then at last you will know
everything about the relationship your are just as wrong.
Throughout eternity , even in our glorious new Christlike bodies, we will not know everything about the intimate relationship between the Father and the Son.
Why would you think you would know everything about it now in our fallen sinful state ?

Meaningless thought and no context given in regard to my replies and the subject at hand.

Isaiah 55:8-9​

​

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,​

neither are your ways my ways,”​

declares the Lord.​

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,​

so are my ways higher than your ways​

and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

No kidding, But the mystery has been revealed by God through His Son as we read in the NT. Can you show where I compared my thoughts with the thoughts of my God or even dared to compare myself with the living God? My only claim is that I know Jesus and He knows me well. I am not even one in authority and make no such claim.

Only Gods own Spirit knows those thoughts and plans.

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God

 

[SolaScriptura]

The Father beget His only Begotten Son before creation, and gave the work of creation to His Son.


God the Son created all things according to the will of God the Father.

UNBIBLICAL!

 

[SolaScriptura]

I didn't read "same glory" I read the glory I had "with you"

"with" is the Greek "para", "along with", when it is SHARED.

This Glory Jesus ALWAYS has WITH the Father, as He is GOD, as the Father is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD

 

[JLB]

UNBIBLICAL!

• For by Him all things were created
• And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17

 

[SolaScriptura]

• For by Him all things were created
• And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Colossians 1:16-17

the Greek preposition, "dia" with the genitive, does also mean WITH, as Jesus Christ is not the only Creator, as Hebrews 2:10 is clear, that the Father also Created, as does Revelation 4:11, etc

 

[Randy]

"with" is the Greek "para", "along with", when it is SHARED.

This Glory Jesus ALWAYS has WITH the Father, as He is GOD, as the Father is GOD, and the Holy Spirit is GOD

I think were at a point where we will agree to disagree.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I asked for and received understanding. Jesus is Gods firstborn and has always been the Son.

Do you believe there was a time when Jesus did not exist ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If son of God does not mean being God for them then it doesn't mean Jesus is God either.

It does mean it for Jesus, that's what makes Jesus UNIQUE - from all these others.

 

[Runningman]

It does mean it for Jesus, that's what makes Jesus UNIQUE - from all these others.

If Jesus is unique to God then he isn't the same God; polytheism.

If he's begotten then he also isn't God. One can't win with that line of reasoning.

 

[SolaScriptura]

If Jesus is unique to God then he isn't the same God; polytheism.

If he's begotten then he also isn't God. One can't win with that line of reasoning.

In Isaiah 9:6, The Prophecy of Jesus Christ, He is called, "Mighty God".

In the following chapter, in verse 21, we read Yahweh is called "Mighty God"

Both in the Hebrew are exactly the same, "’êl Gibbôr", with exactly the same meaning.

This is very clear Old Testament evidence that there are TWO distinct Persons, Who are equally GOD.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If Jesus is unique to God then he isn't the same God; polytheism.

If he's begotten then he also isn't God. One can't win with that line of reasoning.

Then how about him being the only incarnation of God? God in human flesh is still God, that's God's manifestation. Imagine your image on a screen through a filming device, is that you or an imaginary flat person on the screen?

 

[Runningman]

In Isaiah 9:6, The Prophecy of Jesus Christ, He is called, "Mighty God".

YHWH is not mentioned in this verse. This is widely considered to be a prophecy regarding Jesus and most people accept it as such.

In the following chapter, in verse 21, we read Yahweh is called "Mighty God"

Jesus was never called mighty God.

Both in the Hebrew are exactly the same, "’êl Gibbôr", with exactly the same meaning.

Do you recall our last conversation? Ezkekiel 32:21 uses the plural form of "’êl Gibbôr" and it's translated as mighty chiefs. That means Isaiah 9:6 doesn't need to be translated as mighty God.

Ezekiel 32
21Mighty chiefs will speak from the midst of Sheol
about Egypt and her allies:

This is very clear Old Testament evidence that there are TWO distinct Persons, Who are equally GOD.

Psalm 110:1 prove that YHWH isn't Jesus. Thus, Jesus is not God.

Psaml 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

 

[Runningman]

Then how about him being the only incarnation of God? God in human flesh is still God, that's God's manifestation. Imagine your image on a screen through a filming device, is that you or an imaginary flat person on the screen?

Creates an idolatry problem. Men can't be worshipped as God.

 

[SolaScriptura]

YHWH is not mentioned in this verse. This is widely considered to be a prophecy regarding Jesus and most people accept it as such.


Jesus was never called mighty God.


Do you recall our last conversation? Ezkekiel 32:21 uses the plural form of "’êl Gibbôr" and it's translated as mighty chiefs. That means Isaiah 9:6 doesn't need to be translated as mighty God.

Ezekiel 32
21Mighty chiefs will speak from the midst of Sheol
about Egypt and her allies:


Psalm 110:1 prove that YHWH isn't Jesus. Thus, Jesus is not God.

Psaml 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

so Isaiah 9:6, when used for Jesus Christ, must read "Mighty Hero", or something. and 10:21, when used for the Father, is "Mighty God"? this is perverting the Word of God to suit your theology!

It matters not that the phrase is translated different in other uses, as we have "Elohim", which is also used for false "gods", the context and usage is what matters!

For the honest person, Titus 2:13 says that Jesus Christ is "our Great God", which is the same as "Mighty God"

In Revelation 5:13-14, what is said of the Father, is EQUALLY to Jesus Christ, and BOTH are WORSHIPED TOGETHER!

 

[SolaScriptura]

YHWH is not mentioned in this verse. This is widely considered to be a prophecy regarding Jesus and most people accept it as such.

Yahweh Sends Yahweh

Yahweh Sends Yahweh It is argued by some, that, the fact that Jesus Christ is “Sent” by God the Father, is “proof” that the Father is “greater” than the Son, even in the Godhead, as God. The “Sent”, it is further argued, is never equal to the “Sender”. We have two passages, from Zechariah and...

christianforums.net