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Unique, Not Only-Begotten

Greetings again SolaScriptura,
IF the Father "begot" Jesus Christ, then Jesus CANNOT be COEQUAL with the Father, nor, YHWH, nor, God in the same sense as the Father is! which is HERESY!
Well, it seems that you need to adjust your theology.
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg Greek begotten) in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Luke 1:34–35 (KJV): 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


Kind regards
Trevor
 
according to your "theology"!
Can you not read? Jesus calls the Father His God and Father. He also states the Father is the only true God and calls no other God. He states the Father is greater than Him.

In addition we read He received authority from the Father. He learned from the Father. He stated He lived by the Father. He was exalted by the Father.

And you think they are coequal? You need to go to the eye doctor. Jesus is all that the Father is because it pleased Him that His Deity, (without limit), as in fullness should dwell in His Firstborn. By "His" command and at "His" will "He" brought into existence all things through, by and for His Firstborn as it's shown as Him who is living in His Son without limit,

The Father, the God who out of love for the world sent Jesus, elevated Jesus, and spoke by Jesus as one living in Him and reconciled all things to "Himself" through Christ's blood on the cross has not learned nor received from any other being and is unbegotten.
To serve the Father in Spirit and truth.
A kingdom of Priests to serve Jesus's God and Father
One God the Father from whom all things came and "for whom we live"


One God the Father, One Lord Jesus Christ
To Him who sits on the throne and to the lamb
The kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of God and His Christ.

It has always been from that beginning "The Church of the Firstborn"

Hebrews 12:23

New International Version

23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
 
Can you not read? Jesus calls the Father His God and Father. He also states the Father is the only true God and calls no other God. He states the Father is greater than Him.

In addition we read He received authority from the Father. He learned from the Father. He stated He lived by the Father. He was exalted by the Father.

And you think they are coequal? You need to go to the eye doctor. Jesus is all that the Father is because it pleased Him that His Deity, (without limit), as in fullness should dwell in His Firstborn. By "His" command and at "His" will "He" brought into existence all things through, by and for His Firstborn as it's shown as Him who is living in His Son without limit,

The Father, the God who out of love for the world sent Jesus, elevated Jesus, and spoke by Jesus as one living in Him and reconciled all things to "Himself" through Christ's blood on the cross has not learned nor received from any other being and is unbegotten.
To serve the Father in Spirit and truth.
A kingdom of Priests to serve Jesus's God and Father
One God the Father from whom all things came and "for whom we live"


One God the Father, One Lord Jesus Christ
To Him who sits on the throne and to the lamb
The kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of God and His Christ.

It has always been from that beginning "The Church of the Firstborn"

Hebrews 12:23​

New International Version​

23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

try reading some FACTS from the Holy Bible!

 
Monogenēs

Does this word mean “begetting” in any way, as some would argue?

Commentaries, like the Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges, say of “monogenēs”, “It refers to His eternal generation from the Father”, on John 1:14. The words used in this verse by John, “monogenous para patros”, literally means, “the only One from the side of the Father”. Or “with the Father”. In John 1:1, a similar Greek preposition, “prós”, is used, with the same meaning as in verse 14. If we are to understand “generation”, then we would expect the correct Greek preposition to have been used, which is “ex (ek)” to have been used (monogenous ex patros).

If the Bible wanted to show that Jesus Christ is the “only begotten”, from God the Father, then we should see the correct Greek word used for this, which is, “monogennētos”. This is never used.

The early Church Creeds use language that is not from what the 66 Books of the Holy Bible Teaches, but, rather based on the theology of the time.

For example, when the Nicene Creed (AD 325), and others, use language like, “τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων”, “the One begotten out of the Father before all ages”, and “Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ”, Light out of Light”, “True God out of True God”. This is clearly teaching a subordination in the Eternal Godhead, between the Father, Who is seen as “Fons Deitatis”, which is, “the source of Divinity”; and the use of the Greek preposition, “ἐκ”, is also for the purpose of showing that the Father alone is absolute God, and Jesus Christ is “God” in the sense that His Deity is “derived” from the Father. This is utter blasphemy! There is not a single hint in the entire Bible, to even suggest that the Father is in any way “primary” in the Godhead, and “greater” than Jesus Christ. Only during the Incarnation, Jesus Christ “humbled Himself”, as the God-Man, at which time He was “subordinate” to the Father; though completely coequal as Almighty God.

It is important to know, that the Nicene Creed, is based on the “creed” the Caesarean Creed of Eusebius, the historian, who was very much sympatric to the arch heretic, Arius! For the sake of compromise, and a fake “unity”, the Orthodox Church allowed this heretical “creed’s” language to be included in the Nicene Creed.

In 381 AD, we have the Creed of Constantinople, which focused on the Person of the Holy Spirit, especially to His Deity. In this Creed, there is a phrase on the Holy Spirit, “τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον”, “Who proceeds from the Father”. This is meant to be from Jesus’ own words in John 15:26. However, Jesus words are: “ὃ παρὰ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορεύεται”. Note the preposition that Jesus uses, “παρὰ”, which means, “from beside” the Father. This “Creed” has perverted the words of Jesus Christ, by changing this to, “ἐκ”, to show that the Holy Spirit is “derived” from the substance of the Father, and is therefore “subordinate” to Him in the Eternal Godhead!

Biblically and theologically, if at any time, God the Father did “beget”, or “generate” the Son, in the Godhead, in eternity past, then there is no way that Jesus Christ can be GOD, and must be a created person. Nor can Jesus Christ ever be equal with the Father, as the teaching of “eternal generation”, is that the Father is the “source” of the Son, and therefore is alone God in the fullest sense of the word. This is totally against the very clear Teachings in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, where Jesus Christ is YHWH, and 100% COEQUAL with the Father and Holy Spirit in the Eternal Godhead.

The Greek adjective, “monogenēs”, is used 9 times in the entire New Testament, Luke 7:12, 8:42, 9:38; John 1:14, 18, 3:16, 18; Hebrews 11:17, 1 John 4:9. Out of these, only in the Writings of the Apostle John, is it used for Jesus Christ.

In the 3 passages in Luke, “monogenēs” is used for any “only” child. The verse in Hebrews is used for Isaac, a son of Abraham, where Versions like the King James, wrongly read, “only begotten”. Isaac is the second born son to Abraham, Ishmael was the Firstborn son.

In the Greek Old Testament, known as the Septuagint Version (LXX), “monogenēs”, is only used 4 times to translate the Hebrew word, “yâchîyd”. In Judges 11:34, the King James has “only”. In Psalms 22:20 and 35:17, it reads, “my darling”. In Psalm 25:16, it reads, “desolate”. Not once does the King James read, “only Begotten”. “yâchîyd”, is used only 12 times in the Hebrew Old Testament, Genesis 22:2, 12, 16; Judges 11:34; Psalm 22:20, 25:16, 35:17, 68:6; Proverbs 4:3; Jeremiah 6:26; Amos 8:10, and Zechariah 12:10. In these instances, the King James uses words like, “darling, desolate, only, solitary”, but never, “begotten”. In the passage in Genesis 22, when used for Isaac, the King James has, “only”, in each place. So, why did they translate the Greek “monogenēs, in Hebrews 11:17, which refers to this passage in Genesis, by, “only begotten”?

For the sake of word usage, the Apocryphal Old Testament, from the Greek, which was included in the 1611, King James Version, between the Two Testaments, “monogenēs, is used at least 6 times. In this edition of the King James, it uses, “only, one only, only begotten, alone desolate”. The one place that it has, “only begotten”, Tobit 8:17, “only” would have sufficed, as in the NRSV, “Blessed are you because you had compassion on two only children”

In the 3 places in Luke’s Gospel, the King James reads, “only”. In the other places, it reads, “only begotten”. The reference in Hebrews, is Isaac, who was the second son of Abraham, who has 12 sons. So, it is incorrect that “monogenēs” is translated as “only begotten” here, because Isaac was not the only child of Abraham.

In the Old Latin New Testament, “monogenēs”, is translated by, “unicus”, from where we get the English, “inique”. In the 4th century, when the scholar Jerome produced his Latin Vulgate, he used the Latin, “unigenitus”, which answers to the Greek, “monogennētos”.

In Bible translations like the King James, and some of the older ones, translate “monogenēs”, only when used for Jesus Christ, as “only begotten”. In the other instances it is usually, “only”, with a few exceptions.

On the meaning of “monogenēs”, we have:

"the only member of am kin or kind: hence, generally, only, single, unique" (H G Liddell and R Scott; A Greek-English Lexicon, p.1144. Revised Edition)

"Lit. it means 'of a single kind', and could even be used in this sense of the Phoenix (1 Clem.25.2). It is only distantly related to gennao, beget. The idea of 'only begotten' goes back to Jerome who used unigenitus in the Vulg. to counter the Arian claim that Jesus was not begotten but made" (Colin Brown, Ed., The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. II, p. 725)

"Single of its kind, only; used of only sons or daughters...used of Christ, denotes the only son of God or one who in the sense in which he himself is the son of God has no brethren" (J H Thayer; Greek-English Lexicon, p.417)

"only...Also unique (in kind) of someth. that it the only example of its category...'unique and alone'" (W F Ardnt and F W Gingrich; A Greek-English Lexicon, p.529)

"The Usage outside the NT. In compounds with genēs, adverbs describe the nature rather than the source of derivation. Hence monogenēs is used for the only child. More generally it means “unique” or “incomparable.” The LXX has the first sense in Judg. 11:34 and the second in Ps. 22:20. agapētós occurs in Gen. 22:2, 12 where monogenḗs might have been used (cf. Mk. 1:11), but while the only child may be “beloved,” the terms are not synonymous." (G Kittel and G Friedrich, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 607. single vol ed)

“Μονογενής means only, one of a kind, unique (derived from μόνος and γένος). This basic meaning is found in Plato Ti. 92c (of the heaven: εἷς οὐρανὸς ὅδε μονογενής); Wis 7:22 (of the Spirit of Wisdom); Cornutus Theologia Graeca 27 [49:13] (of this one and only world: εἷς καὶ μονογενὴς ὁ κόσμος; likewise Plutarch Moralia 423a); 1 Clem. 25:2 (of the phoenix).

(Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament)

For the Lord Jesus Christ, the definitions given by Kittel, “unique” or “incomparable”, are the best.
Unique as opposed to the word begotten creates a polytheism issue. That's definitely one of the major issues the translation you're promoting suffers from.
 
try reading some FACTS from the Holy Bible!

Jesus receives life, authority, and knowledge from His God the Father.
The Father is the source of all existence including His Firstborn.
Same writer -
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

The Fathers throne
Jesus-To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
About Jesus's throne He will give us a place to sit on
Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel

As stated
I will give authority over the nations to the person who overcomes and continues to do what I’ve commanded to the end, and

27 ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter;
shattering them like clay pots.’[c]
28 ‘Just as I have received authority from my Father, I will also give him the morning star

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
 
really? then show how
Depends which version you read, but John 1:18 translated as "unique God" rather than "Begotten Son" creates a polytheism issue because it contains that contradiction that creates multiple God's. If you cannot see God, how could you see “the unique God?”

If Jesus is the begotten Son like the rest of the new testament says then there isn't an issue.
 
Depends which version you read, but John 1:18 translated as "unique God" rather than "Begotten Son" creates a polytheism issue because it contains that contradiction that creates multiple God's. If you cannot see God, how could you see “the unique God?”

If Jesus is the begotten Son like the rest of the new testament says then there isn't an issue.

no multiple "God". One Godhead or Divine Nature, as in Romans 1:20, Three distinct equal Persons, Who are GOD.

In math, 1x1x1=1. not, 1+1+1=3
 
no multiple "God". One Godhead or Divine Nature, as in Romans 1:20, Three distinct equal Persons, Who are GOD.

In math, 1x1x1=1. not, 1+1+1=3
Doesn't get some translations of John 1:18 out of hot water. The only "Unique God" isn't the previously mentioned God in John 1:18. The only way to resolve the issue of no one being able to see God, but being able to see Jesus, would be to stick with the translations that say only begotten Son. Meshes just fine with the Bible.
 
Unique as opposed to the word begotten creates a polytheism issue. That's definitely one of the major issues the translation you're promoting suffers from.
"Unique" is as opposed to other "sons of God", Gen. 6:3, Job 1:6, Ps. 82:6. Those are divine beings, they may be OF God, but they are NOT God, they are created beings in charge of human affairs. Jesus is not one of them, He is God in human flesh above all of them.
 
complete and utter RUBBISH!!!
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The person of the Father on His throne in heaven -Jesus sat down on His Fathers Throne

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Jesus only refers to the Father as God

“And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

While this is Amplified it captures the true greatly implied meaning of Col 1:19 (Jesus is all that the Father is)
For it pleased the Father for all the fullness [of deity—the sum total of His essence, all His perfection, powers, and attributes] to dwell [permanently] in Him (the Son),

So the eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

A distinction was shown that is not captured in orthodox trinity statements
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

His words are not rubbish
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The risen Lord holds to His testimony
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

He was appointed heir of all things by God does that read coeternal?
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

He was exalted by God as Lord to the glory of God. Does that read coeternal?
“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above very name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
 
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The person of the Father on His throne in heaven -Jesus sat down on His Fathers Throne

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Jesus only refers to the Father as God

“And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

While this is Amplified it captures the true greatly implied meaning of Col 1:19 (Jesus is all that the Father is)
For it pleased the Father for all the fullness [of deity—the sum total of His essence, all His perfection, powers, and attributes] to dwell [permanently] in Him (the Son),

So the eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

A distinction was shown that is not captured in orthodox trinity statements
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

His words are not rubbish
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The risen Lord holds to His testimony
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

He was appointed heir of all things by God does that read coeternal?
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

He was exalted by God as Lord to the glory of God. Does that read coeternal?
“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above very name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.

You don't seem to understand Christology.

Jesus Christ is YHWH, and therefore eternal and 100% coequal with the Father in the eternal Godhead

At His Conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary, God (Jesus Christ), took on "human nature", as became as one of us, with the exception of sin. This is very clear in Philippians 2:5-8

During the Incarnation, Jesus Christ became "submitted" to the Father, as the God-Man, while He was Almighty God. This is why we read that Jesus says, "the Father is greater than I". This is NOT as GOD, but as the God-Man, on earth.

John 17:5 shows that Jesus Christ has from all eternity, had the SAME GLORY that the Father has, and "gave" this up while on earth, and returned to this after His Ascension
 
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.”

So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

The person of the Father on His throne in heaven -Jesus sat down on His Fathers Throne

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
Jesus only refers to the Father as God

“And to the angel of the church in La-odice′a write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

While this is Amplified it captures the true greatly implied meaning of Col 1:19 (Jesus is all that the Father is)
For it pleased the Father for all the fullness [of deity—the sum total of His essence, all His perfection, powers, and attributes] to dwell [permanently] in Him (the Son),

So the eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

A distinction was shown that is not captured in orthodox trinity statements
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

His words are not rubbish
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The risen Lord holds to His testimony
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

He was appointed heir of all things by God does that read coeternal?
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

He was exalted by God as Lord to the glory of God. Does that read coeternal?
“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above very name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.

this might help

 
You don't seem to understand Christology.

Jesus Christ is YHWH, and therefore eternal and 100% coequal with the Father in the eternal Godhead

At His Conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary, God (Jesus Christ), took on "human nature", as became as one of us, with the exception of sin. This is very clear in Philippians 2:5-8

During the Incarnation, Jesus Christ became "submitted" to the Father, as the God-Man, while He was Almighty God. This is why we read that Jesus says, "the Father is greater than I". This is NOT as GOD, but as the God-Man, on earth.

John 17:5 shows that Jesus Christ has from all eternity, had the SAME GLORY that the Father has, and "gave" this up while on earth, and returned to this after His Ascension
I know Jesus and more important He knows me well. You swallow a camel as Jesus was exalted by God as Lord and received even the fullness by the will of another. (was pleased)
My understanding in that He is God's Firstborn and has always been the Son was given and cemented in me from above. If I was told what you state you couldn't move me either. He is not just the Firstborn being of the Father as He is before all things and is the beginning of the creation of God. The rest God brought into existence through Jesus as is testfied clearly in the NT. (From whom all things came) vs (through whom all things came)

Coeternal beings don't live by another, receive authority from another or have a God and Father as Jesus sat down on His "Fathers" throne. Nor are they declared God by receiving the Deity of another to dwell in them. They are unbegotten as is the Father and have no need for any fullness to dwell in them as they would be that Deity in themselves as is the only true God the Father.

It is the Father who has glorified His Firstborn above all others except Himself. Jesus is Lord by the Fathers will and command. The one who set Jesus above all others in heaven and earth and under the earth. Only the Father is greater.
The one who gives the blessing is greater than the one who is blessed. And if Jesus always was God, and there is only one, He would already have all authority and wouldn't be inheriting all things as they would already be His nor would He have the fullness of Deity living in Him by the will of another. He would be that Deity.
 
this might help

I asked the one I believe in a long time ago,"Can anyone explain the trinity". As I believed in Him and prayed to Him and loved Him as far back as my memory goes before I even had to consider deep theologies such as the doctrine of the trinity. He is Gods Firstborn and has always been the Son.

So I agree in part to what is stated in orthodoxy about Christ Jesus.

A Son that was given.
Begotten from the Father alone before all worlds but not made.
 
You don't seem to understand Christology.

Jesus Christ is YHWH, and therefore eternal and 100% coequal with the Father in the eternal Godhead

At His Conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary, God (Jesus Christ), took on "human nature", as became as one of us, with the exception of sin. This is very clear in Philippians 2:5-8

During the Incarnation, Jesus Christ became "submitted" to the Father, as the God-Man, while He was Almighty God. This is why we read that Jesus says, "the Father is greater than I". This is NOT as GOD, but as the God-Man, on earth.

John 17:5 shows that Jesus Christ has from all eternity, had the SAME GLORY that the Father has, and "gave" this up while on earth, and returned to this after His Ascension
In regard to John 17:5 was there something I stated that leads you to believe I don't believe Jesus lived before the world began or I don't believe God brought into existence all things by and through His Son?

My understanding of John 17:5 is this ,"return to me the glory I had with you before the world began"

It has been returned to Him and guess what the one on the throne is still His God and Father. So to "Jesus" the Father must be the greater. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him.
 
God says in His Word that His Glory, He will not share with any other.
And Jesus says in His Word that prior to world being created & prior to His becoming flesh all the Glory of God was His.
Either the Father or the Son is a liar or they are both right.

Jhn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
 
In regard to John 17:5 was there something I stated that leads you to believe I don't believe Jesus lived before the world began or I don't believe God brought into existence all things by and through His Son?

My understanding of John 17:5 is this ,"return to me the glory I had with you before the world began"

It has been returned to Him and guess what the one on the throne is still His God and Father. So to "Jesus" the Father must be the greater. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him.

John 17:5 says that Jesus Christ has the SAME GLORY with the Father from eternity past. This ONLY means, that BOTH are Almighty GOD
 
In regard to John 17:5 was there something I stated that leads you to believe I don't believe Jesus lived before the world began or I don't believe God brought into existence all things by and through His Son?

My understanding of John 17:5 is this ,"return to me the glory I had with you before the world began"

It has been returned to Him and guess what the one on the throne is still His God and Father. So to "Jesus" the Father must be the greater. Your problem is with Him not me as I follow Him.
The problem is yours, in that at it's root is the fact that you believe that there is nothing about the Spiritual power of the Creator of all things that you are not equally privy to .
Nothing God can withhold from you knowing and that cannot be fully explained in human terms by you.
Such you believe your station to be.
God says in His Word that you and me do not even have a full & complete knowledge of our own spiritual nature, let alone have full knowledge of God's nature.

Unchecked Copy Box
Jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


And yet you think you can claim to fully know everything about God ?
Not possible my friend.
The example of some things regarding the Godhead only being understood by God , and forever hidden from us is also given in His Word in the moment that Jesus hung upon the cross . and the entire earth was covered in darkness.
No human eye was allowed to witness the transaction that took place between God the Father & God the Son.
Hidden for all eternity from us .
Do you believe in heaven you will finally be allowed to witness what happened that moment that God covered the earth in complete darkness so that no eye could see what transpired between God the Father & God the Son ?
If you believe that when you leave this earth and are in the presence of Jesus in heaven that then at last you will know
everything about the relationship your are just as wrong.
Throughout eternity , even in our glorious new Christlike bodies, we will not know everything about the intimate relationship between the Father and the Son.
Why would you think you would know everything about it now in our fallen sinful state ?

Isaiah 55:8-9

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

 
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