[_ Old Earth _] Universe shouldn't exist

[agua.]

Well...I am still thinking that it is possible. With God all things are possible and for scripture to say that mountains would sing praises unto Him, and Jesus saying that the rocks would cry out...Although i do not know for sure, i would think that, that was possible moreso than the possibility that Jesus was using hyperbole. I'm not intending to disrespect your opinion, I'm merely saying that, the way I think, it doesn't really make sense to me that Jesus would do that...and I certainly cannot state unequivocally that rocks (or matter) have cognizance, I'm just hesitant to easily dismiss scripture.

Another thought is...IF matter such as rocks could speak or cry out, would that mean that they would have to have cognizance (the ability to *think*)? Or could/would they simply be responding to Gods command? Remember the donkey which spoke in scripture? Did the donkey have cognizance or was it just doing what God commanded?

Oky doky Ed. Animals have cognizance and can think etc because they have Yahweh's spirit. imo. Rocks and mountains don't.

Gen 7:15 KJV And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

 

[WIP]

Gen 7:15 KJV And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

This is a bit off topic but this verse sparked an interest for me, agua. I've never realized this before. It would be interesting to see a discussion about the possibility of animals having souls.

 

[Edward]

Oky doky Ed. Animals have cognizance and can think etc because they have Yahweh's spirit. imo. Rocks and mountains don't.

Gen 7:15 KJV And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.

I do not disagree with you brother! I'm simply pointing out that if God wanted the rocks to speak, that they would. :wink

 

[Edward]

This is a bit off topic but this verse sparked an interest for me, agua. I've never realized this before. It would be interesting to see a discussion about the possibility of animals having souls.

This is an interesting topic, and I have read a little bit about it. The premise was that animals are two part beings, body and soul, but have no spirit. Whereas men have three parts, body soul and spirit.

 

[Barbarian]

Scripture doesn't say one way or the other, but as a biologist, I know that mammals and birds at least, fear, love, hate, grieve, and rejoice the way we do.

The difference, I think, is that they are forever innocent, unable to realize the pain that they might cause others. If they have immortal souls, they have never experienced the Fall as we have. I would like to think God has something for them, too. It would be another reason to seek heaven; I have a lot of old friends I would love to see again.

 

[Edward]

Scripture doesn't say one way or the other, but as a biologist, I know that mammals and birds at least, fear, love, hate, grieve, and rejoice the way we do.

The difference, I think, is that they are forever innocent, unable to realize the pain that they might cause others. If they have immortal souls, they have never experienced the Fall as we have. I would like to think God has something for them, too. It would be another reason to seek heaven; I have a lot of old friends I would love to see again.

That's interesting barby. I too have seen emotion in animals. They say elephants will return to the spot they lost a calf, and in one case went back to a keepers house who died who had died, and had cared for them a long time, some say they went to pay their respects. I think it may be possible.

 

[Barbarian]

In the sense that they return to a place with pleasant memories of a loved one. This, I think is why dogs sometimes refuse to leave a gravesite, or repeatedly return to it.

Animals aren't very smart, but they are emotionally as capable as we are. Different sort of intelligence. My dog knows when I'm not feeling well, and will come over and lay her head on my leg. Sometimes she's aware of it before I am.

What's spooky is she will sometimes get up and walk into her crate, when she knows I'm going to leave, again, sometimes before I realize I've decided to go somewhere. This fits the neurological evidence that shows neurons begin to activate muscles before a person is aware that he or she has decided to move.

Dogs in particular, study their humans constantly and diligently, and it pays off. They understand us.

 

[Edward]

In the sense that they return to a place with pleasant memories of a loved one. This, I think is why dogs sometimes refuse to leave a gravesite, or repeatedly return to it.

Animals aren't very smart, but they are emotionally as capable as we are. Different sort of intelligence. My dog knows when I'm not feeling well, and will come over and lay her head on my leg. Sometimes she's aware of it before I am.

What's spooky is she will sometimes get up and walk into her crate, when she knows I'm going to leave, again, sometimes before I realize I've decided to go somewhere. This fits the neurological evidence that shows neurons begin to activate muscles before a person is aware that he or she has decided to move.

Dogs in particular, study their humans constantly and diligently, and it pays off. They understand us.

My dog Riggs has displayed the same behavior as you describe. Knowing that I am about to leave, and he simply gets up and goes into his kennel. I've wondered about this and he does it so much that there has to be something to it. At night also, before I go to bed, it's like he knows and just goes into his kennel. Too many times to be coincidence. Nothing that I have seen would telegraph this intent to him.

Most of the time, my dog seems to be able to tell if the raised voices are in play or a real argument/fight brewing also.

 

[Barbarian]

It's pretty likely that he can recognize the subtle movements or postures you do, before you are aware of it. And of course, dogs are famously hard to fool about intentions, because they can read emotions very well. So a fake fight probably looks like play to them. But they know when real anger is there.

 

[jay55]

ok barbarian...You didn't watch any of those videos, did you?
I know I am not good at explaining this, I'm no scientist, lol. but they're on to this stuff and from what they said, it does prove the existence of God. I'm not sure that i am really grasping the point which you seem to be moving towards here. I know you're educated and can talk circles around me, but...in a nutshell, what are you trying to say? God does/doesn't exist? You seem to find fault with what most say, but to what end?

Bless you brother.

Edward, you keep saying you are no scientist and can't explain this stuff so well but I think you are doing a terrific job! Thank you.

 

[Edward]

Edward, you keep saying you are no scientist and can't explain this stuff so well but I think you are doing a terrific job! Thank you.

Wow, really? Cool, thanks brother. Even though I'm no scientist, I have always liked to read and have good comprehension so I can follow these guys pretty good about what they are saying and so forth, so I'm no dummy, lol. it's nice to hear that someone likes my writing even though most prolly think I'm off my rocker, lol. Thank you brother.

I'm also not afraid to suspend what i think I know and to consider some farout things because I know that we have been lied to our whole life and things are not what they seem. There's more to this world than meets the eye that's for sure. It's really mind blowing at times. When i was young it was all cut and dried Sunday School stuff, but as I get older and pursue this knowledge for myself...Wow, it's like a good sci-fi book or something.

I don't think that anyone should just blindly accept anything but do their own homework on it, read and pray about it and come to their own conclusions. This is where it's taking me.

The most curious thing about it all is how people will get mad and frustrated rather than open their mind to consider something new. That's strange. That's how I have learned some of the most important things that I have ever learned, by setting aside what I have been taught long enough to take an honest look at a different view.

How's that saying? 'If you haven't changed your beliefs and outlook within the past ten years, check your pulse, you may be dead' I thought that was great!

 

[agua.]

Wow, really? Cool, thanks brother. Even though I'm no scientist, I have always liked to read and have good comprehension so I can follow these guys pretty good about what they are saying and so forth, so I'm no dummy, lol. it's nice to hear that someone likes my writing even though most prolly think I'm off my rocker, lol. Thank you brother.

I'm also not afraid to suspend what i think I know and to consider some farout things because I know that we have been lied to our whole life and things are not what they seem. There's more to this world than meets the eye that's for sure. It's really mind blowing at times. When i was young it was all cut and dried Sunday School stuff, but as I get older and pursue this knowledge for myself...Wow, it's like a good sci-fi book or something.

I don't think that anyone should just blindly accept anything but do their own homework on it, read and pray about it and come to their own conclusions. This is where it's taking me.

The most curious thing about it all is how people will get mad and frustrated rather than open their mind to consider something new. That's strange. That's how I have learned some of the most important things that I have ever learned, by setting aside what I have been taught long enough to take an honest look at a different view.

How's that saying? 'If you haven't changed your beliefs and outlook within the past ten years, check your pulse, you may be dead' I thought that was great!

The most curious thing about it all is how people will get mad and frustrated rather than open their mind to consider something new. That's strange. That's how I have learned some of the most important things that I have ever learned, by setting aside what I have been taught long enough to take an honest look at a different view.

I think it's also curious when people think their "new" understanding hasn't been tossed around ad infinitum previously. Can you give me an example Ed of something you changed your position on recently ?

 

[Edward]

I think it's also curious when people think their "new" understanding hasn't been tossed around ad infinitum previously. Can you give me an example Ed of something you changed your position on recently ?

Sure brother. Pre-trib rapture! I was a hard core pre-tribber. I was taught it by a respected pastor and did do my homework and he made a great case for it. The thing was though, that i liked the idea, and wanted it to be true. But some other guys made a very good case for no rapture...and I hate to be wrong. So i did honestly set aside my preconceived notions long enough to take a good hard look at it...and after a few weeks or a month or so the light began to dawn...and I didn't like what I was learning, but i had to be honest and admit that no rapture actually makes more sense, and I was able to see the holes in the rapture (theory).

I want there to be a rapture. Who wants to go through the great trib? But truth is truth no matter if we like it or not. Praise the Lord that mine eyes have been opened.

 

[agua.]

Sure brother. Pre-trib rapture! I was a hard core pre-tribber. I was taught it by a respected pastor and did do my homework and he made a great case for it. The thing was though, that i liked the idea, and wanted it to be true. But some other guys made a very good case for no rapture...and I hate to be wrong. So i did honestly set aside my preconceived notions long enough to take a good hard look at it...and after a few weeks or a month or so the light began to dawn...and I didn't like what I was learning, but i had to be honest and admit that no rapture actually makes more sense, and I was able to see the holes in the rapture (theory).

I want there to be a rapture. Who wants to go through the great trib? But truth is truth no matter if we like it or not. Praise the Lord that mine eyes have been opened.

Cool ! Regarding scientific notions it's also a good idea to look at all the data and not be selective as Barbarian may suggest. ie some Christians grab bits of science and attach their philosophy to it as "God proofs" in the same way as some scientists grab bits of science and add their philosophy to it as "naturalsim proofs". Neither is a good idea.

 

[Edward]

Cool ! Regarding scientific notions it's also a good idea to look at all the data and not be selective as Barbarian may suggest. ie some Christians grab bits of science and attach their philosophy to it as "God proofs" in the same way as some scientists grab bits of science and add their philosophy to it as "naturalsim proofs". Neither is a good idea.

I agree, not a good idea at all. Though I may have come across as believing the science stuff, I am not 100% convinced that it is true. They make a good case for it, and are more learned than I in science. I have some confidence in science but am hesitant to absolutely believe it for i simply do not know, not being a scientist myself. that being the case, i would essentially have to have faith in them that they speak the truth. I do think that some scientists are honorable and truthful and this may be the case here. They are not trying to say that there is absolutely no God, which some do so this in itself may be a good indicator of the truth that these guys may be honorable. but keeping in mind that deception is the primary tool of the evil ones, and so the good liars are the ones who will tell most of the truth and just slightly twist it a little. but scripture tells us that we can trust no on except God, and that is what I absolutely believe in. This is no salvific issue so that's good and perhaps even moot overall because of that.

But it is interesting, and mans knowledge is increasing, and the physicists which lay this stuff down are at least honorable enough to admit that it could be true because the indicators point to the real possibility of the proof of God is within these experiments and data. At least they didn't say that it's probably aliens doing this stuff, lol. Some will say that it is absolutely true, some will not. It could be. I do think that at some point Gods existence will be able to be proven scientifically. i think that it is a good possibility that they may have done it, or will do it soon. To outright reject it would be a mistake also because the truth is out there, somewhere.

 

[agua.]

I agree, not a good idea at all. Though I may have come across as believing the science stuff, I am not 100% convinced that it is true. They make a good case for it, and are more learned than I in science. I have some confidence in science but am hesitant to absolutely believe it for i simply do not know, not being a scientist myself. that being the case, i would essentially have to have faith in them that they speak the truth. I do think that some scientists are honorable and truthful and this may be the case here. They are not trying to say that there is absolutely no God, which some do so this in itself may be a good indicator of the truth that these guys may be honorable. but keeping in mind that deception is the primary tool of the evil ones, and so the good liars are the ones who will tell most of the truth and just slightly twist it a little. but scripture tells us that we can trust no on except God, and that is what I absolutely believe in. This is no salvific issue so that's good and perhaps even moot overall because of that.

But it is interesting, and mans knowledge is increasing, and the physicists which lay this stuff down are at least honorable enough to admit that it could be true because the indicators point to the real possibility of the proof of God is within these experiments and data. At least they didn't say that it's probably aliens doing this stuff, lol. Some will say that it is absolutely true, some will not. It could be. I do think that at some point Gods existence will be able to be proven scientifically. i think that it is a good possibility that they may have done it, or will do it soon. To outright reject it would be a mistake also because the truth is out there, somewhere.

I do think that at some point Gods existence will be able to be proven scientifically.

I don't think so. Yahweh's existance is undeniable already regardless od science and I doubt He wants His presence treated as an experiment.

Joh 20:29 KJV Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Edward]

There's already all sorts of proof of God. All you really have to do it to step outside your front door and glance around. He created this beautiful creation, it's awesome. Too bad we ruined it. Big bang theory they call that one. You don't something from nothing unless you're God. I think there was a big bang. When God spoke. Then it went bang, into existence. I'm not being facetious either.Even the scientist said that in the video. Explosions destroy not create. Explosions blow up and out, not together. If it was a normal explosion then the planets would be in a different order than they are with the bigger planets in close and the smaller planets out there far.

Hey brother, what do you think about the asteroid belt? (I think it used to be a big planet and was destroyed, probably by God for some reason)

 

[Barbarian]

"Big bang" is a misnomer. Wasn't really a bang. The name was taken from the words of a critic of the theory, which was first proposed by a Christian, (and initially opposed by atheists, because it suggested the universe had a beginning).

 

[Edward]

"Big bang" is a misnomer. Wasn't really a bang. The name was taken from the words of a critic of the theory, which was first proposed by a Christian, (and initially opposed by atheists, because it suggested the universe had a beginning).

huh. Really. learn something new everyday.

 

[Barbarian]

Yep. Fred Hoyle was an atheist, who disparagingly called the theory "the big bang." He was partially motivated by his adherence to the steady state theory, and partially, because the big bang looked disturbingly like creation to him, particularly since it was proposed by an astrophysicist who happened to be a Catholic priest.

Later Hoyle became a bit of an IDer, considering that we must have been made by superintelligent aliens. He also wrote that insects are very likely more intelligent than we are.

In spite of these weird ideas, he was no crank; he first figured out how nucleosynthesis works in stars, and his accurate prediction of the resulting resonance in carbon atoms pretty much settled the issue. He was, to use an old-fashioned word, a paradoxer.