[_ Old Earth _] Universe shouldn't exist

[TOG]

Oky doky TOG. Genesis does say Yahweh planted the Garden but if you prefer to think of it as being established fully mature I'm ok with that.

Just so there's no misunderstanding, I am also OK with you believing what you do.

I see it as growing with Yahweh being the horticulturist.

Gen 2:8 KJV And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The garden was not part of the creation we read about in the first chapter of Genesis. When we read int chapter 2 that God "planted a garden eastward in Eden", it's obvious that Eden already existed and that God took a certain part of the eastern section of Eden and set it aside for a garden. He then put the man, whom He had already created at some other location, and put him in the garden. The Bible doesn't say that God spoke the garden into existence, but rather that He planted it. That's not what it says about the world as a whole. But even so, It looks to me like the time from when Adam was created until he was put in the garden must have been short. It wasn't until he was expelled from the garden that Adam had to work for a living, but how else could he have lived for very long outside the garden?

Also I see Yahweh somehow caused the Earth and Seas to bring forth life but I don't know the mechanics of how.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass,

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly,

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature

etc.

It may well be that these things grew, but if they did, it didn't take them many years, but only a very short time, since the Bible says it all happened in less than a week.

I don't support the literal 24 hour day model but I'm ok if you do.

As you can see, I do.

The TOG​

 

[agua.]

Just so there's no misunderstanding, I am also OK with you believing what you do.




The garden was not part of the creation we read about in the first chapter of Genesis. When we read int chapter 2 that God "planted a garden eastward in Eden", it's obvious that Eden already existed and that God took a certain part of the eastern section of Eden and set it aside for a garden. He then put the man, whom He had already created at some other location, and put him in the garden. The Bible doesn't say that God spoke the garden into existence, but rather that He planted it. That's not what it says about the world as a whole. But even so, It looks to me like the time from when Adam was created until he was put in the garden must have been short. It wasn't until he was expelled from the garden that Adam had to work for a living, but how else could he have lived for very long outside the garden?

but how else could he have lived for very long outside the garden?

I don't get the question TOG rephrase please.

 

[agua.]

i did. In post 25-26 & 28

This is what you posted about the double slit exp Ed.

"Plus, in the double slit experiment, light, a freed electron, showed it was observant of it's surroundings. It knew when it was being watched and when it was not. it showed a simple means of intelligence by reacting to visual stimuli.""

Can you post what the scientist said ? ie. his words not yours.

 

[TOG]

I don't get the question TOG rephrase please.

While he was in the garden, Adam didn't have to till the ground or work in any other way to survive. The garden was a perfect place, where all the food he needed grew on the trees, and all he had to do any time he was hungry was to pick some fruit. Once he was thrown out of the garden, he had to deal with thorns and weeds and other things, and had to work to make things grow. Presumably, that was the situation outside the garden the entire time. We know that Adam was created outside the garden and later put in the garden (Gen. 2:8). Notice also that the man (Gen. 2:7) was created before the garden (Gen. 2:8). So, here's what happened according to my understanding...

1. Adam was created outside of the garden (where there were thorns etc.) (Gen. 2:7)
   
2. The garden was created (Gen. 2:8)
   
3. The man was put in the garden (Gen. 2:8)
   
4. Eve was formed from Adam's side (Gen. 2:22)
   
5. Adam and Eve sinned (Gen. 3:6)
   
6. Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden (Gen. 3:23-24)

The question is about how long a time there was between #1 and #2 in that list. You say it took time for the garden to grow. If that's the case, then Adam lived outside the garden and had to deal with raising crops and fighting thorns and other things, before he was put in the garden. But the Bible tells us that that's all part of the curse, and didn't happen until #6 in the list. Since Adam didn't work until after he was expelled from Eden, then the time between #1 and #2 couldn't have been very long.

The TOG​

 

[agua.]

While he was in the garden, Adam didn't have to till the ground or work in any other way to survive. The garden was a perfect place, where all the food he needed grew on the trees, and all he had to do any time he was hungry was to pick some fruit. Once he was thrown out of the garden, he had to deal with thorns and weeds and other things, and had to work to make things grow. Presumably, that was the situation outside the garden the entire time. We know that Adam was created outside the garden and later put in the garden (Gen. 2:8). Notice also that the man (Gen. 2:7) was created before the garden (Gen. 2:8). So, here's what happened according to my understanding...

1. Adam was created outside of the garden (where there were thorns etc.) (Gen. 2:7)
   
2. The garden was created (Gen. 2:8)
   
3. The man was put in the garden (Gen. 2:8)
   
4. Eve was formed from Adam's side (Gen. 2:22)
   
5. Adam and Eve sinned (Gen. 3:6)
   
6. Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden (Gen. 3:23-24)

The question is about how long a time there was between #1 and #2 in that list. You say it took time for the garden to grow. If that's the case, then Adam lived outside the garden and had to deal with raising crops and fighting thorns and other things, before he was put in the garden. But the Bible tells us that that's all part of the curse, and didn't happen until #6 in the list. Since Adam didn't work until after he was expelled from Eden, then the time between #1 and #2 couldn't have been very long.

The TOG​

Oky doky TOG. I take a less literal view of this process.

 

[Edward]

This is what you posted about the double slit exp Ed.

"Plus, in the double slit experiment, light, a freed electron, showed it was observant of it's surroundings. It knew when it was being watched and when it was not. it showed a simple means of intelligence by reacting to visual stimuli.""

Can you post what the scientist said ? ie. his words not yours.

Those were not my words, but taken directly from one of those videos. Tell you what, since they only touched on the double slit experiment briefly, I will post another video which deals with the double slit experiment specifically and goes into more detail. In fact I'll post two that I've watched which both explain it very well. One of them is animated but does expplain it, and the other is a real live scientist (or Physicist?). There's some consciousness involved here. In the experiement, they got different results which were wholly dependent on if they were being observed or not. This is the source of the idea that light knows if it is being observed or not.

 

[agua.]

Those were not my words, but taken directly from one of those videos. Tell you what, since they only touched on the double slit experiment briefly, I will post another video which deals with the double slit experiment specifically and goes into more detail. In fact I'll post two that I've watched which both explain it very well. One of them is animated but does expplain it, and the other is a real live scientist (or Physicist?). There's some consciousness involved here. In the experiement, they got different results which were wholly dependent on if they were being observed or not. This is the source of the idea that light knows if it is being observed or not.

Hey Ed. Have you considered that the detector itself may influence the particles ? ie. The sensor disturbs the particles.

 

[Edward]

Hey Ed. Have you considered that the detector itself may influence the particles ? ie. The sensor disturbs the particles.

Yeah I did when I was watching different vids of this. but one vid, for whatever reason (maybe they suspected the same thing?) they did i the experiment again after the different results...they left the detector in place and simply turned it off and the results came out as if it was still being observed! Explain that one brother! So if the particles are conscious, it's not like they are all knowing, lol. Pretty weird for sure. Lemme see if I can find that one particular vid for you...

 

[TOG]

Hey Ed. Have you considered that the detector itself may influence the particles ? ie. The sensor disturbs the particles.

That possibility is mentioned in the second video. When they left the detectors on, but didn't actually record the data, it went back to an interference pattern. It wasn't the detectors that were changing anything, but the actual act of collecting the data.

The TOG​

 

[Edward]

That possibility is mentioned in the second video. When they left the detectors on, but didn't actually record the data, it went back to an interference pattern. It wasn't the detectors that were changing anything, but the actual act of collecting the data.

The TOG​

That was pretty mind blowing. What if you did an experiment, but the test subject took evasive action? lol

I think this is the one...

 

[Edward]

That possibility is mentioned in the second video. When they left the detectors on, but didn't actually record the data, it went back to an interference pattern. It wasn't the detectors that were changing anything, but the actual act of collecting the data.

The TOG​

being a skeptical sort, I consider that almost immediately thinking along the lines of perhaps the particles felt the flow of power somehow, like when Jesus flt the power flow when the woman touched his garment...but it didn't work that way, they in effect...tricked the particles!

 

[Edward]

Whoa. Now here's an interesting video I just watched. Hold on to your hats if you like normal thinking!

 

[TOG]

Whoa. Now here's an interesting video I just watched. Hold on to your hats if you like normal thinking!

Normal??? What in the world did that have to do with "normal"???

The TOG​

 

[Edward]

Normal??? What in the world did that have to do with "normal"???

The TOG​

That's the joke.

 

[TOG]

I was actually laughing almost all the way through the video. I was thinking "This is awesome! There's no way this can happen without God!" Just think about it. If the existence of matter is dependent on observation, then how could it have existed for billions of years without anyone to observe it?

The TOG​

 

[agua.]

Yeah I did when I was watching different vids of this. but one vid, for whatever reason (maybe they suspected the same thing?) they did i the experiment again after the different results...they left the detector in place and simply turned it off and the results came out as if it was still being observed! Explain that one brother! So if the particles are conscious, it's not like they are all knowing, lol. Pretty weird for sure. Lemme see if I can find that one particular vid for you...

That possibility is mentioned in the second video. When they left the detectors on, but didn't actually record the data, it went back to an interference pattern. It wasn't the detectors that were changing anything, but the actual act of collecting the data.

The TOG​

I was actually laughing almost all the way through the video. I was thinking "This is awesome! There's no way this can happen without God!" Just think about it. If the existence of matter is dependent on observation, then how could it have existed for billions of years without anyone to observe it?

The TOG​

I think you guys are making a huge jump here. I'm not saying this isn't a spectcular demosntration of the Creation and Creator but it doesn't imply that particles of matter have cognizance. Notice the genius grad student who broke it down to a probability distribution and how this is now the accepted model. Here's the basic explanation. "When conscious measurement takes place the probability wave collapses to a physical particle." ( 6:28-6:40) You see it's a change in the cognizance of the observer which collapses the wave which is also interesting and has implications on the spiritual world imo.

Can I ask do you guys think all matter particles have cognizance. ie. an atom, an electron etc can think. ?

 

[TOG]

I think you guys are making a huge jump here. I'm not saying this isn't a spectcular demosntration of the Creation and Creator but it doesn't imply that particles of matter have cognizance. Notice the genius grad student who broke it down to a probability distribution and how this is now the accepted model. Here's the basic explanation. "When conscious measurement takes place the probability wave collapses to a physical particle." ( 6:28-6:40) You see it's a change in the cognizance of the observer which collapses the wave which is also interesting and has implications on the spiritual world imo.

Can I ask do you guys think all matter particles have cognizance. ie. an atom, an electron etc can think. ?

You misunderstand me. What I understood from the video was not that matter had cognizance, but that the existence of matter is dependent on some form of consciousness to observe it. If all cognizant beings would cease to exist, the non-cognizant matter would also cease to exist.

The TOG​

 

[Barbarian]

The obvious solution is that light is neither particulate nor waves, but these two behaviors are two different aspects of the same thing which we cannot observe within the structure of space and time to which we are limited.

In fact, if you put a particle detector behind both slits and emit a single photon, you will find that the photon goes through one slit or the other. Remove the apparatus, and you get an interference pattern. No way to escape the duality, but there is no evidence whatsoever supporting panpsychism.

 

[agua.]

You misunderstand me. What I understood from the video was not that matter had cognizance, but that the existence of matter is dependent on some form of consciousness to observe it. If all cognizant beings would cease to exist, the non-cognizant matter would also cease to exist.

The TOG​

Ah ok. I don't get that idea from the slit experiment. I'm guessing since Yahweh is eternal that everything He created exists until it's destroyed. ie. there's never a circumstance where a cognizent Being hasn't existed.

 

[Edward]

I think you guys are making a huge jump here. I'm not saying this isn't a spectcular demosntration of the Creation and Creator but it doesn't imply that particles of matter have cognizance. Notice the genius grad student who broke it down to a probability distribution and how this is now the accepted model. Here's the basic explanation. "When conscious measurement takes place the probability wave collapses to a physical particle." ( 6:28-6:40) You see it's a change in the cognizance of the observer which collapses the wave which is also interesting and has implications on the spiritual world imo.

Can I ask do you guys think all matter particles have cognizance. ie. an atom, an electron etc can think. ?

Well...I am still thinking that it is possible. With God all things are possible and for scripture to say that mountains would sing praises unto Him, and Jesus saying that the rocks would cry out...Although i do not know for sure, i would think that, that was possible moreso than the possibility that Jesus was using hyperbole. I'm not intending to disrespect your opinion, I'm merely saying that, the way I think, it doesn't really make sense to me that Jesus would do that...and I certainly cannot state unequivocally that rocks (or matter) have cognizance, I'm just hesitant to easily dismiss scripture.

Another thought is...IF matter such as rocks could speak or cry out, would that mean that they would have to have cognizance (the ability to *think*)? Or could/would they simply be responding to Gods command? Remember the donkey which spoke in scripture? Did the donkey have cognizance or was it just doing what God commanded?