[_ Old Earth _] Universe shouldn't exist

[Edward]

Oh I'm not mad Ed just dissapoointed after so many discussions the same result is achieved. I think it's Biblical to brush you off after this :biggrin Are you offended ?

That the same result is achieved? What would that be? I'm not following you on that. I take the bible very literally, some don't. You're going to brush me off now? So you are offended. For a few there it sort've sounded like you didn't want to answer my question, so i wondered about it and asked you very pointedly to see. i didn't mean any offense by it. Apparently you were though. I'm not offended. I think because i tend to take the bible literally that it rubs some the wrong way because it can challenges ones sensibilities and often times a literal reading isn't what people learned in Sunday school so it weirds them out because they don't want to think like that. Are we to make the scripture what we want it to be, or to see it for what it is?

I don't want to think that 80% of the bible is metaphors. that doesn't make sense to me. It makes it too complicated to try to make sense of it thinking like that and our Lord is not the author of confusion. the simplicity that is in Christ is spoken of in scripture. When i look for simplicity in the word, i find it in a literal reading, weird as some of it may be.

 

[agua.]

That the same result is achieved? What would that be? I'm not following you on that. I take the bible very literally, some don't. You're going to brush me off now? So you are offended. For a few there it sort've sounded like you didn't want to answer my question, so i wondered about it and asked you very pointedly to see. i didn't mean any offense by it. Apparently you were though. I'm not offended. I think because i tend to take the bible literally that it rubs some the wrong way because it can challenges ones sensibilities and often times a literal reading isn't what people learned in Sunday school so it weirds them out because they don't want to think like that. Are we to make the scripture what we want it to be, or to see it for what it is?

I don't want to think that 80% of the bible is metaphors. that doesn't make sense to me. It makes it too complicated to try to make sense of it thinking like that and our Lord is not the author of confusion. the simplicity that is in Christ is spoken of in scripture. When i look for simplicity in the word, i find it in a literal reading, weird as some of it may be.

Ok Ed stick with what you prefer. I'd be careful to interpret the Bible other than what the Author intended but that's up to all of us to discern. Here's why Jesus said stones may cry out if you would like an alternative terp.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...verse-shouldnt-exist.54492/reply&quote=951054

 

[TOG]

Ok this seems to imply you think elements have cognizance is that right ?

No, but I believe God's words have power. He can speak to things that do not exist as if they did exist, and they will obey by coming into existance. The words usually translated into English as "Let there be light" actually mean "Light, be!". It's a command, similar to "Bob, come". The light did not exist before God created it, but he commanded it to come into existance. The same applies to the animals. They didn't exist before they were created (other than possibly in God's mind), but He commanded them to exist.

The TOG​

 

[Barbarian]

If this is the case why is there a need to include evolution in the Christian faith?

If you read some of Collins' writing, you'd learn why it isn't necessary at all.

Why not just go by what Genesis says about God creating the earth?

I think that would be a good idea. As you see, creationists add new things to Genesis to make it more acceptable to them. As it is, it's completely compatible with science in general and evolution in particular.

 

[Barbarian]

Sounds like I made you mad.

Sounds like someone's projecting a bit. I'm just pointing out that you can't put DNA into a proton. The smallest strand of DNA is millions of times larger than a proton.

Well, c'mon man, you should be above that, he who professes to be so wise.

You're projecting again. I never claimed to be wise.

Allright, look. i was doing a lot of stuff yesterday and today and jumping around in my studies and break (where I watch videos for fun and so forth) So I was going by memory and mixed up my terms a little ok? (I said protons and should have said Photons!)

To the extent that a photon can be said to have a diameter, it's much smaller than a proton. A photon has some particle properties, but also behaves as a wave, so although the "location" of a photon is extremely small, it doesn't really have a size. At any rate, there's no way to put DNA into a photon, either.

Reading your other posts, you seem to be a panentheist, attributing awareness to inanimate things. Although some animals have the ability to think, I doubt very much if flowers or rocks can do so.

 

[jeff77]

If you read some of Collins' writing, you'd learn why it isn't necessary at all.



I think that would be a good idea. As you see, creationists add new things to Genesis to make it more acceptable to them. As it is, it's completely compatible with science in general and evolution in particular.

I will take a look at Collin's writings. Just google it I guess? I don't like the creationist or YE version either, cause your right they are adding to God's Word.

 

[agua.]

No, but I believe God's words have power. He can speak to things that do not exist as if they did exist, and they will obey by coming into existance. The words usually translated into English as "Let there be light" actually mean "Light, be!". It's a command, similar to "Bob, come". The light did not exist before God created it, but he commanded it to come into existance. The same applies to the animals. They didn't exist before they were created (other than possibly in God's mind), but He commanded them to exist.

The TOG​

Oky doky. so the mechanics of how Yahweh created remain unknown right ?

 

[Barbarian]

I will take a look at Collin's writings. Just google it I guess?

Might be good to start here, where Collins explains how he drifted into atheism, until he discovered God.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html

 

[TOG]

Oky doky. so the mechanics of how Yahweh created remain unknown right ?

What do you mean by "mechanics"?

The TOG​

 

[agua.]

What do you mean by "mechanics"?

The TOG​

I mean how Yahweh commanded things into existance. Was it like all the atoms came together instantaneously to make a cow/tree etc or something else ?

Genesis implies something else imo.

Gen 1:11-12 KJV And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. (12) And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

This implies the grass grew rather than was instantaneously created what do you think ?

 

[Edward]

No, but I believe God's words have power. He can speak to things that do not exist as if they did exist, and they will obey by coming into existance. The words usually translated into English as "Let there be light" actually mean "Light, be!". It's a command, similar to "Bob, come". The light did not exist before God created it, but he commanded it to come into existance. The same applies to the animals. They didn't exist before they were created (other than possibly in God's mind), but He commanded them to exist.

The TOG​

That's a good point. In the spiritual realm, is the existence of something in the mind or imagination as an idea, real? Everything was an idea before it became a reality. how significant is this? (Perhaps more than we realize?). Now, we know from scripture, that God hates a heart which deviseth wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18), and that if one looks upon a woman with lust in their heart, that they are guilty of adultery (Matthew 5:28), to me this is using ones imagination...having an idea. So in light of this, will we not, in effect, be judged by our very imaginations and thoughts? Does this make thoughts in the spiritual realm real?

Consider everything that was ever invented. It began as an idea in someones imagination. The chair that you sit upon, they didn't used to exist. Then someone had an idea using their imagination, envisioned a chair, and then designed it and made it. Is this a crossover into the spiritual realm?

I have no chair to sit upon. Only rocks and the ground in the natural world/realm. i go from the natural realm into the spiritual realm...receive the idea/imagination for a chair, a picture of it perhaps, a vision. then i return to the natural realm and make the chair. Boom, it's a "reality". Did that just happen? Was it real? Was it not real in the spiritual realm before it was in the natural realm?

Did God think about the earth and the animals before He spoke them into existence? Have the thought? I think it's reasonable to assume that He did. How real and how significant is this?

 

[agua.]

That's a good point. In the spiritual realm, is the existence of something in the mind or imagination as an idea, real? Everything was an idea before it became a reality. how significant is this? (Perhaps more than we realize?). Now, we know from scripture, that God hates a heart which deviseth wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18), and that if one looks upon a woman with lust in their heart, that they are guilty of adultery (Matthew 5:28), to me this is using ones imagination...having an idea. So in light of this, will we not, in effect, be judged by our very imaginations and thoughts? Does this make thoughts in the spiritual realm real?

Consider everything that was ever invented. It began as an idea in someones imagination. The chair that you sit upon, they didn't used to exist. Then someone had an idea using their imagination, envisioned a chair, and then designed it and made it. Is this a crossover into the spiritual realm?

I have no chair to sit upon. Only rocks and the ground in the natural world/realm. i go from the natural realm into the spiritual realm...receive the idea/imagination for a chair, a picture of it perhaps, a vision. then i return to the natural realm and make the chair. Boom, it's a "reality". Did that just happen? Was it real? Was it not real in the spiritual realm before it was in the natural realm?

Did God think about the earth and the animals before He spoke them into existence? Have the thought? I think it's reasonable to assume that He did. How real and how significant is this?

Tell me when you manage to sit on the imaginary chair or maybe some pesky Angel has taken your seat Brother. :D

 

[TOG]

I mean how Yahweh commanded things into existance. Was it like all the atoms came together instantaneously to make a cow/tree etc or something else ?

Genesis implies something else imo.

Gen 1:11-12 KJV And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. (12) And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

This implies the grass grew rather than was instantaneously created what do you think ?

I disagree. Consider Adam. Did he grow from a baby? I don't see how that's possible, since God spoke to him on the very day he was created. Even the smartest babies today don't even begin to talk until their close to 2 years old. Even then, it's just single simple word. But God had a conversation with Adam. And how long does it take from the time you plant, say, an apple seed until it grows and bears fruit? It would take many years, yet the trees in the garden were bearing fruit for Adam and Eve to eat only 2 days after their creation. Similar things can be said of the other things that were created. All of this indicates to me that these things happened instantaneously.

The TOG​

 

[Edward]

Tell me when you manage to sit on the imaginary chair or maybe some pesky Angel has taken your seat Brother. :biggrin

but they couldn't take take my seat if I could just imagine up another one, lol.

But seriously, I think there may be something to this because the scriptures do speak of the imagination quite a bit, and on thinking and so forth.

 

[TOG]

Did God think about the earth and the animals before He spoke them into existence? Have the thought? I think it's reasonable to assume that He did. How real and how significant is this?

It seems logical to me. This reminded me of something I heard a long time ago. I think it was back in the late 70s or early 80s. There was a cult, who's name I can't remember, that believed (and possibly still does) that all of reality only exists in God's mind. If He stopped thinking about us for even an instant, we would cease to exist.

The TOG​

 

[agua.]

I disagree. Consider Adam. Did he grow from a baby? I don't see how that's possible, since God spoke to him on the very day he was created. Even the smartest babies today don't even begin to talk until their close to 2 years old. Even then, it's just single simple word. But God had a conversation with Adam. And how long does it take from the time you plant, say, an apple seed until it grows and bears fruit? It would take many years, yet the trees in the garden were bearing fruit for Adam and Eve to eat only 2 days after their creation. Similar things can be said of the other things that were created. All of this indicates to me that these things happened instantaneously.

The TOG​

Oky doky TOG. Genesis does say Yahweh planted the Garden but if you prefer to think of it as being established fully mature I'm ok with that. I see it as growing with Yahweh being the horticulturist.

Gen 2:8 KJV And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Also I see Yahweh somehow caused the Earth and Seas to bring forth life but I don't know the mechanics of how.

Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass,
Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass,

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life,
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly,

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature

etc.

I don't support the literal 24 hour day model but I'm ok if you do.

 

[Edward]

Sounds like someone's projecting a bit. I'm just pointing out that you can't put DNA into a proton. The smallest strand of DNA is millions of times larger than a proton.



You're projecting again. I never claimed to be wise.



To the extent that a photon can be said to have a diameter, it's much smaller than a proton. A photon has some particle properties, but also behaves as a wave, so although the "location" of a photon is extremely small, it doesn't really have a size. At any rate, there's no way to put DNA into a photon, either.

Reading your other posts, you seem to be a panentheist, attributing awareness to inanimate things. Although some animals have the ability to think, I doubt very much if flowers or rocks can do so.

yeeah, I just mixed up my terms. my memory was never the best and as I age it's just getting worse, lol. I have notes on everything.

They didn't put DNA into a photon, it went beside them, then the photons reacted.

What's a panentheist? (You projecting now? lol) No, i simply read some scriptures and they said, mountains would praise Him, the Sea would, the rocks would cry out and so forth. And it was the Physicists or whatever that said that photons and light have a certain awareness. This is sort of mind blowing to me. I've never heard any inanimate object speak or sing. I'm not sure what to do with the scriptures though...could it be literal? I wouldn't want to underestimate God, or to dismiss His Word just because I don't understand it or have never seen it happen before...

 

[Edward]

It seems logical to me. This reminded me of something I heard a long time ago. I think it was back in the late 70s or early 80s. There was a cult, who's name I can't remember, that believed (and possibly still does) that all of reality only exists in God's mind. If He stopped thinking about us for even an instant, we would cease to exist.

The TOG​

That does seem logical. Scripture says that His thoughts are above our thoughts and so forth so He does think. Indeed His very Word that we read, is Gods very thoughts.

 

[agua.]

yeeah, I just mixed up my terms. my memory was never the best and as I age it's just getting worse, lol. I have notes on everything.

They didn't put DNA into a photon, it went beside them, then the photons reacted.

What's a panentheist? (You projecting now? lol) No, i simply read some scriptures and they said, mountains would praise Him, the Sea would, the rocks would cry out and so forth. And it was the Physicists or whatever that said that photons and light have a certain awareness. This is sort of mind blowing to me. I've never heard any inanimate object speak or sing. I'm not sure what to do with the scriptures though...could it be literal? I wouldn't want to underestimate God, or to dismiss His Word just because I don't understand it or have never seen it happen before...

And it was the Physicists or whatever that said that photons and light have a certain awareness.

Ed can you post the words the scientist used here because I've seen the youtuble double split experiment that I think you're referring to and it's very light hearted. The message is that we don't understand why the electrons do what they do, or that our measuring/sensors aren't up to the task, not that they have cognizance I think. Post the words and let's see.

 

[Edward]

i did. In post 25-26 & 28