Bible Study Walking By the Spirit: Basic Christian Living.

[GodsGrace]

You are adding to the thread, yes, but you are not, I think, participating in it, by which I mean actually interacting with the OP directly and usefully. Instead, you've posted a passage from Galatians 5 without noting context and without relating it to the OP. Imagine doing this in face-to-face conversation with other people: A group discussion is going on in the church foyer after a Sunday morning service, and you just walk up and say something that you want to say but has no clear pertinency to what the group was discussing. You'd get a lot of wondering stares and folks thinking you were not a little rude to just intrude on the discussion in such a manner.



I don't disagree with the passage from Galatians 5 that you quoted, only with the ambiguous way you offered it and the impression you've left that it supports the idea of a person's salvation being lost. What, at most, the passage does is indicate that a person who practices sin, whose life is commonly and persistently characterized by willful sin, is not, and has never been, saved (1 John 3:7-10). If you believe this, as Scripture gives us all good cause to do, then you should have said so, I think.



Do you?



It wasn't a response. It was, as far as I can see, just an attempt to derail the thread into your "hobby horse" area of doctrinal debate. And if you think it appropriate to ask me why I can't discuss your post, I should ask you why you didn't actually discuss mine, the OP of this thread.



What a peculiar take on his words.

Romans 8:1
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Paul's emphasis isn't on the state of the fleshly in this verse but on the state of those in Christ Jesus. Why, in reading his words in this verse, is your focus so opposite Paul's? The latter part of verse 1- "who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" - that appears in the KJV is a later accretion to the verse, repeating what is stated in verse 4. But even adding this bit, Paul's emphasis in the verse is clearly and chiefly upon the free-from-condemnation state of those "who are in Christ Jesus."



Yes, Paul, here, is indicating the only two fundamental states in which believers can exist: according to the Spirit, or according to the flesh. Every day, all believers live in one of these two states. If they live according to the flesh, their fellowship with God is "dead" (See the story of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32) and they will, in due time, reap the "harvest" of the flesh which is "corruption" (Galatians 6:7-8); if they live according to the Spirit, fellowship with God is the result and from this fellowship with Him arises "life and peace" (Galatians 5:22-23; Ephesians 5:9).



Yes, a Christian who lives persistently in sin, or engages in a sufficiently grievous evil, may actually physically die as a consequence.

1 Corinthians 11:27-30
27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.

1 John 5:16-17
16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

In these two passages, it is Christians who are in view, who "sleep" as a result of sin, or who "commit sin leading to death." This is very evident in the first passage in the fact that Paul is speaking to those partaking in the Lord's Supper which an unbeliever would have no cause, nor desire, to do. Moreover, Paul's first letter to the believer's at Corinth highlighted a host of sinful things going on among them - sexual sin, contentiousness, litigiousness, gross selfishness, etc. - but Paul repeatedly confirmed, nonetheless, that they were "brethren," "temples of God," "God's field and building," "in Christ" and so on (1 Corinthians 1:2, 4, 8-9, 11, 26, 30; 2:1, 3:1, 9, 16, 23; 4: 6, 14-15, etc.). So, then, when Paul wrote what he did in the passage above, he had born-again believers in view, not the unsaved.

In the second passage, John had born-again believers as his intended subject and audience, too. He begins:

1 John 1:3
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Repeatedly in his letter, John lumped himself in with his readers, identifying with them by using pronouns like "we," "us," and "our" as he explained what he did to his readers. And in the passage above, John referred to those who see their "brother committing a sin" implying by "brother," not physical, familial ties, but spiritual ones. In doing so, John clearly indicated that a Christian brother, a born-again child of God, can - and does - sin (see also: 1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 2:1), even to the degree that their sin results in the death of their body.

And so, when Paul wrote to the Corinthian Christians, "if you you live after the flesh, you will die," he did not mean spiritual death, only physical death or, alternatively, the death of their fellowship with God.



Yes, they are serious statements. But not because they threaten a born-again person's salvation. As I've already pointed out in this thread, a person's salvation does not rest upon them, but upon Christ.

A Christian ought to "fear the Lord" but in the sense of awed respect, reverence, for the Lord, not terror, not the anxiety-producing, paralyzing fear that at any moment, they might sin themselves beyond the unknown "line" between salvation and no longer saved. Such fear is opposed and corrosive to the love-relationship God intends to have with His children.

1 John 4:16-19
16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
19 We love, because He first loved us.

YOU ARE VIOLATING TOS RULES.

PLEASE TREAT ALL MEMBERS WITH RESPECT.
PLEASE REPLY WITH CIVILITY AND DO NOT MAKE FLAMING REMARKS.
ANYONE CAN REPLY TO AN OPEN THREAD.
DO NOT MODERATE THE THREAD.
IF NECESSARY REPORT THE POST.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

REPLYING TO A MODERATOR IN A THREAD IS GROUNDS FOR AN IMMEDIATE BAN FROM THE THREAD.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure why you bothered to post this since it ignored my post entirely. If you want to just promote your false and blasphemous works-salvation doctrine, please do so in your own thread. Thanks.

DITTO

 

[JLB]

You referred to Romans 8, not anything from Galatians 5 in order to do so! How is this "filling in context"?

My initial post, post number 12 is directly addressing your op which I think was good. You made some good points.

I was hoping to join the discussion with a simple statement and scripture, in context to your opening scripture.

Here is my opening post below.

Walking according to the Spirit is the way of eternal life.

Practicing the works of the flesh is the way of eternal damnation.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Will not inherit the kingdom of God = Being sent to the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels!

“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41



JLB

JLB

 

[JLB]

No, they can wander but never be lost in the sense that their salvation is dissolved.

Lost means lost brother.

The parable of the lost sheep seems pretty clear, by the language Jesus uses.

Actually the very next teaching concerning the ten coins, teaches us an important principle.


“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ Luke 15:8-9

• Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!

Here Jesus teaches us the simple principle that a person must first possess something in order to lose it.

People who become lost are those who at one time belong to the Lord.


Notice the shepherd to whom the sheep belong says “my”.

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

again

• for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.

Lost = unjust, a sinner in need of repentance, spiritually dead


This principle is also amplified in Matthew 18



James says it this way —


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death

A brother in Christ who wanders away from Him, returns to being a sinner; someone who by definition is separated from Christ.







JLB

 

[JLB]

Whose sheep did the shepherd find? His own sheep.

Was the Prodigal Son ever actually dead? No. Did he ever cease to be his father's son? No. The only thing that was "dead" was the fellowship between father and son.

The prodigal son, like the sheep, became lost.

Heaven was overjoyed when they turned back in repentance and were restored.

Jesus uses very specific language that is undeniable —

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Lost = separated from the owner.

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

Here we see that Jesus calls these who became lost, sinners. His sheep who wander away and become lost, have returned to being sinners.
By definition is a person separated from Christ; disconnected, no longer joined to Him and therefore spiritually dead.

• than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The ninety nine that remained, were just, but the one who wandered away and became lost was no longer justified, and was in need of repentance in order to become reconciled back to Him, just like when they were first saved.



JLB

 

[Tenchi]

“Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ Luke 15:8-9

• Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!

You don't seem to have twigged to the fact that the whole reason she searched for the coin was because it was her coin - just as the lost sheep was the shepherd's sheep, not just any old lost sheep, and the Prodigal Son was always the son of his father.

Lost = separated from the owner.

Yes, right: The owner of the lost items.

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

Here we see that Jesus calls these who became lost, sinners. His sheep who wander away and become lost, have returned to being sinners.
By definition is a person separated from Christ; disconnected, no longer joined to Him and therefore spiritually dead.

No. I already showed you from Scripture that this is a faulty conclusion. Please, again, read 1 John 1:8-10, 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, Galatians 3:1-3; Revelation 2-3, etc. These passages all describe born-again saints who sin. Their wandering into the "wilderness" of disobedience to God was not, as the passages clearly indicate, the dissolution of their salvation.

It's interesting that Jesus never used the parables of the lost sheep or coin to say that the sinner who repents was outside of God's kingdom and family, only that they were apart from God in their sin. As the Prodigal Son story reveals, though the son was "lost" to his father, off in a far country wasting his inheritance, their fellowship with one another dead, his relationship to his father as a son never dissolved. Always, even in the filth of the pigpen eating pig food, the Prodigal Son was still his father's son.

• than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The ninety nine that remained, were just, but the one who wandered away and became lost was no longer justified, and was in need of repentance in order to become reconciled back to Him, just like when they were first saved.

None of what you say here about "justification" being lost is in the least evident in the text of the parables themselves or in Christ's concluding comments on the parables. You have simply forced the "no longer justified," and "reconciled back to Him, just like when they were first saved" into the parables.

 

[JLB]

You don't seem to have twigged to the fact that the whole reason she searched for the coin was because it was her coin

Exactly, it was her coin and therefore she searched for it.

It was lost; separated from her, no longer in her possession.


Lost = no longer justified, no longer joined with Christ; separated from Him. Spiritually dead, in need of repentance in order to be reconciled to Him again.


There is nothing you can say, to make LOST someone mean saved.


In the words of Paul, “will not inherit the kingdom of God”.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God

JLB

 

[Tenchi]

Exactly, it was her coin and therefore she searched for it.

It was lost; separated from her, no longer in her possession.

But still belonged to her which was why she searched for it so carefully and rejoiced when she'd recovered it.

Lost = no longer justified, no longer joined with Christ; separated from Him. Spiritually dead, in need of repentance in order to be reconciled to Him again.


There is nothing you can say, to make LOST someone mean saved.

No, a truly lost person, spiritually-speaking, has never had a direct, personal relationship with God, they have never been one of His own. A saved person who sins, however, has a relationship with God, they are one of His sheep, one of His children, one of His branches, they are related to Him, as a coin is to its possessor, but, like the Prodigal Son or lost sheep, have wandered off into a far country or wilderness of sin. When they do, because they are the Good Shepherd's sheep, because they are a "coin" belonging to God, they will be searched for and found, because they are not a pig, but a son or daughter, they will finally say, "I will go to my father" and go home to his open and loving arms.

Imagine, a young boy wanders out of the yard of his home, off into the nearby forest and becomes hopelessly lost. What do the boy's parents think? Do they say to themselves, "Well, our little boy's gone off, wandered away from us into the forest and is lost. And so, since our child is lost, since he has wandered off, he is no longer our child." What a preposterous thing to think! What an evil attitude for a parent to adopt toward their child! But you are saying, JLB, that the Heavenly Father is just like this, rejecting His children when they wander off from Him into the wilderness of sin.

Well, as I've already shown from God's word, this is NOT actually how God is. And there's nothing you can say, JLB, that can put the salvation of anyone in their own hands rather than in the hands of the Savior, from whose hands no one can ever be snatched.

John 10:27-30
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."

John 6:39-40
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Hebrews 13:5-6
5 ...be content with what you have, for God has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
6 So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear...”

Romans 8:33-39
33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.
34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[JLB]

But still belonged to her which was why she searched for it so carefully and rejoiced when she'd recovered it.

And why Jesus was urging His disciples to do the same with His lambs.


However in the case of the prodigal son, he had to return and be restored.


This is what it means to repent; turn to God

IF we have wandered away from Him, return to God.

The point is, lost = without God, sinner separated from Christ, spiritually dead, unjust and therefore in need of salvation.




JLB

 

[donadams]

Right. There was a separation between father and son in the story of the Prodigal Son when the son made rotten choices and went off into a far country to waste his inheritance. But through all of his foolishness he was always his father's son. Only their fellowship was dissolved, not their relationship.

On what basis do I gain acceptance with God? By my good works? No.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I am accepted by God as one of His own, I enter into relationship with God as His adopted child, ONLY because I am in the "Beloved" who is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 1:4-7
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Galatians 4:4-7
4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Since Jesus is always accepted by God and I am in Jesus, I, too, am always accepted by God. This acceptance is entirely Jesus-dependent, though, not me-dependent. And thank God this is so, because I am nowhere near perfect, as Jesus is. I cannot ever meet God's standard for acceptance by Him which is His own holy perfection. Jesus can, though, and has done so. All those in him, "clothed in Christ" (Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27), have put on his perfect righteousness and are forever after seen by God in his righteousness. I have no cause to fear, then, that my salvation can be lost. My sin sin may separate me from fellowship with God, but it can never dissolve the basis for my adoption by God, which is only Jesus Christ.

Let’s see still has a relationship?

Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

No relationship with a dead man!

Sin unto spiritual death, separation from God

Eph 2;8 does not refer to justification or salvation but redemption which is the first part in the process of salvation
Titus 3:5 refers to our baptism

 

[Tenchi]

Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

No relationship with a dead man!

But you're just reading the parable in the way convenient to your view. As Christ tells it, he confirms, over and over, the relationship between father and son.

Luke 15:11-24
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them.
13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

So, in what way, then, was the son "dead"? He wasn't physically dead. And he was always his father's son throughout the story, which the father acknowledges by both his actions and words, running out to meet his returning son, hugging and kissing him before the son even gets a word out, and then calling his child "son" as he explained his command to his servants to prepare a celebration.

So, how was the son "dead, and is alive again"? Well, the father explained: "He was lost and is found." The father wasn't speaking of real death, only of separation from his son and the resulting loss of fellowship with him. But this separation never dissolved their familial relationship, as the parable makes very clear.

Your interpretation of what the father meant when he said, "My son is dead" just ignores completely the substance of the parable, denying what is plainly related in it so that you can maintain your view. This ought to alarm you. Your determination to deny the plain facts of God's word in order to sustain a viewpoint is a kind of willful blindness to His Truth that can only have catastrophic spiritual results.

Eph 2;8 does not refer to justification or salvation but redemption which is the first part in the process of salvation

False. Entirely false. There is no salvation apart from justification and there is no redemption that is not also salvation.

Titus 3:5 refers to our baptism

Again, totally false. Just read the verse:

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The word "baptism" does not appear anywhere in this passage. But "Savior," "saved," and "justified by grace" do. Paul is very clearly addressing the matter of the means of a person's salvation, not baptism (except of the spiritual sort by the Holy Spirit who spiritually "baptizes" every born-again person into Jesus Christ ). And in regards to one's salvation, to one's justification by grace, works are explicitly excluded by Paul.

 

[donadams]

But you're just reading the parable in the way convenient to your view. As Christ tells it, he confirms, over and over, the relationship between father and son.

Luke 15:11-24
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them.
13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

So, in what way, then, was the son "dead"? He wasn't physically dead. And he was always his father's son throughout the story, which the father acknowledges by both his actions and words, running out to meet his returning son, hugging and kissing him before the son even gets a word out, and then calling his child "son" as he explained his command to his servants to prepare a celebration.

So, how was the son "dead, and is alive again"? Well, the father explained: "He was lost and is found." The father wasn't speaking of real death, only of separation from his son and the resulting loss of fellowship with him. But this separation never dissolved their familial relationship, as the parable makes very clear.

Your interpretation of what the father meant when he said, "My son is dead" just ignores completely the substance of the parable, denying what is plainly related in it so that you can maintain your view. This ought to alarm you. Your determination to deny the plain facts of God's word in order to sustain a viewpoint is a kind of willful blindness to His Truth that can only have catastrophic spiritual results.



False. Entirely false. There is no salvation apart from justification and there is no redemption that is not also salvation.



Again, totally false. Just read the verse:

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The word "baptism" does not appear anywhere in this passage. But "Savior," "saved," and "justified by grace" do. Paul is very clearly addressing the matter of the means of a person's salvation, not baptism (except of the spiritual sort by the Holy Spirit who spiritually "baptizes" every born-again person into Jesus Christ ). And in regards to one's salvation, to one's justification by grace, works are explicitly excluded by Paul.

Protestant colored glssses!

Do we have any part in redemption?

 

[donadams]

But you're just reading the parable in the way convenient to your view. As Christ tells it, he confirms, over and over, the relationship between father and son.

Luke 15:11-24
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them.
13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

So, in what way, then, was the son "dead"? He wasn't physically dead. And he was always his father's son throughout the story, which the father acknowledges by both his actions and words, running out to meet his returning son, hugging and kissing him before the son even gets a word out, and then calling his child "son" as he explained his command to his servants to prepare a celebration.

So, how was the son "dead, and is alive again"? Well, the father explained: "He was lost and is found." The father wasn't speaking of real death, only of separation from his son and the resulting loss of fellowship with him. But this separation never dissolved their familial relationship, as the parable makes very clear.

Your interpretation of what the father meant when he said, "My son is dead" just ignores completely the substance of the parable, denying what is plainly related in it so that you can maintain your view. This ought to alarm you. Your determination to deny the plain facts of God's word in order to sustain a viewpoint is a kind of willful blindness to His Truth that can only have catastrophic spiritual results.



False. Entirely false. There is no salvation apart from justification and there is no redemption that is not also salvation.



Again, totally false. Just read the verse:

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The word "baptism" does not appear anywhere in this passage. But "Savior," "saved," and "justified by grace" do. Paul is very clearly addressing the matter of the means of a person's salvation, not baptism (except of the spiritual sort by the Holy Spirit who spiritually "baptizes" every born-again person into Jesus Christ ). And in regards to one's salvation, to one's justification by grace, works are explicitly excluded by Paul.

Baptism is washing away of sin by God’s grace (life)

 

[donadams]

But you're just reading the parable in the way convenient to your view. As Christ tells it, he confirms, over and over, the relationship between father and son.

Luke 15:11-24
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them.
13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’
20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

So, in what way, then, was the son "dead"? He wasn't physically dead. And he was always his father's son throughout the story, which the father acknowledges by both his actions and words, running out to meet his returning son, hugging and kissing him before the son even gets a word out, and then calling his child "son" as he explained his command to his servants to prepare a celebration.

So, how was the son "dead, and is alive again"? Well, the father explained: "He was lost and is found." The father wasn't speaking of real death, only of separation from his son and the resulting loss of fellowship with him. But this separation never dissolved their familial relationship, as the parable makes very clear.

Your interpretation of what the father meant when he said, "My son is dead" just ignores completely the substance of the parable, denying what is plainly related in it so that you can maintain your view. This ought to alarm you. Your determination to deny the plain facts of God's word in order to sustain a viewpoint is a kind of willful blindness to His Truth that can only have catastrophic spiritual results.



False. Entirely false. There is no salvation apart from justification and there is no redemption that is not also salvation.



Again, totally false. Just read the verse:

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The word "baptism" does not appear anywhere in this passage. But "Savior," "saved," and "justified by grace" do. Paul is very clearly addressing the matter of the means of a person's salvation, not baptism (except of the spiritual sort by the Holy Spirit who spiritually "baptizes" every born-again person into Jesus Christ ). And in regards to one's salvation, to one's justification by grace, works are explicitly excluded by Paul.

It’s not a good example of what I’m saying, the idea of this parable was your idea not mine!

Do we inherit eternal life in heaven if we are quote “out of fellowship”?

Is there such a thing as sun unto death? (Spiritual death) (lost)

 

[Tenchi]

Protestant colored glssses!

Do we have any part in redemption?

If by "Protestant glasses" you mean "reading in the text what is actually, plainly there," then, yes, you're right.

We can move in faith to the place where Jesus saves us, but the saving he does only he can do. We simply receive his saving work, nothing more.

If a man goes to his barber for a haircut, has he participated in getting his haircut? No. He just sits in a chair and receives a haircut from his barber. His going to the barber and sitting in the barber's chair doesn't cut his hair. He could sit for a month in the barber's chair and his hair would not be cut if the barber didn't cut it. No, the barber must cut his hair and to the barber's hair-cutting work the man in the chair can do nothing but sit still and receive it.

What about a man who visits the dentist to get a cavity filled? Does his going to his dentist and stretching out in the dentist's chair fix his tooth? No. The man with the bad tooth could sit in the chair for a week or a month but his tooth won't be fixed by doing so. Only when the dentist works on his tooth and repairs the cavity is the tooth actually fixed; and this repair of the tooth is something, again, the dentist's patient can only receive.

In the very same way, trusting in the truth of the Gospel and in Christ as one's Savior doesn't save anyone. It is the object of their trust who saves them and he does so entirely alone, the one-and-only Savior, to whose saving work nothing can be contributed (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5). As Scripture says, salvation is given by God to us as a gift that we can only receive by faith ( Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; Romans 6:23). A gift is not a gift if one must earn it.

Baptism is washing away of sin by God’s grace (life)

No, baptism is a spiritual event where the Holy Spirit puts those who trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior and submit to him as Lord into Christ, washing and spiritually-regenerating them, and making of them "new creatures in Christ." (Romans 10:9-10; Titus 3:5-8; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 6:1-6; Romans 13:14). Water baptism merely symbolizes this event and connects faith to immediate, corresponding action).

It’s not a good example of what I’m saying, the idea of this parable was your idea not mine!

??? Yes, pointing to the Parable of the Prodigal Son is a good idea when trying to understand the difference between relationship and fellowship, and seeing how that, though the latter be lost, the former never is.

Do we inherit eternal life in heaven if we are quote “out of fellowship”?

As the story of the lost sheep, lost coin and the Prodigal Son all illustrate, separation doesn't dissolve relationship. The relationship of the lost sheep to the Shepherd remained though the sheep was lost. It was because the lost sheep was the Shepherd's sheep that he went out and found it. The relationship of the Shepherd to his own, lost sheep existed even though the sheep had wandered off and become separated from the Shepherd and was the reason the Shepherd went looking for his sheep.

The same is true of the lost coin. The reason the woman searched high-and-low for the coin was because it was her coin. She had a relationship to the lost coin as its possessor and so was determined to find the coin when it was lost. The woman wasn't searching for just any old coin that she was hoping she might find, right? She had a particular coin in mind: Her coin; the coin that belonged to her; the coin that was related to her as her possession.

The same thing is evident in the story of the Prodigal Son, as I've already explained. Always in the story he was his father's son. Never had the son actually died. And immediately upon his return, the father acknowledged his relationship with his son and restored fellowship with him, embracing, kissing, clothing and holding a party for his returned son. Here, too, then, separation - being "lost" - doesn't dissolve relationship.

On what basis does God accept any of us? On the basis of our fellowship with Him? No. ONLY on the basis of our being "in Christ" (Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27; 2 Corinthians 5:17). We are "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:7) who is perfect; because he is perfect, he is always accepted by God; and because we are in Christ, who is perfect and always accepted by God, we, too, are always accepted by God. This is the ONLY basis upon which God accepts us and is the ONLY basis upon which He continues to accept us.

Is there such a thing as sun unto death? (Spiritual death) (lost)

Yes. But this is physical death, not spiritual.

 

[donadams]

If by "Protestant glasses" you mean "reading in the text what is actually, plainly there," then, yes, you're right.

We can move in faith to the place where Jesus saves us, but the saving he does only he can do. We simply receive his saving work, nothing more.

If a man goes to his barber for a haircut, has he participated in getting his haircut? No. He just sits in a chair and receives a haircut from his barber. His going to the barber and sitting in the barber's chair doesn't cut his hair. He could sit for a month in the barber's chair and his hair would not be cut if the barber didn't cut it. No, the barber must cut his hair and to the barber's hair-cutting work the man in the chair can do nothing but sit still and receive it.

What about a man who visits the dentist to get a cavity filled? Does his going to his dentist and stretching out in the dentist's chair fix his tooth? No. The man with the bad tooth could sit in the chair for a week or a month but his tooth won't be fixed by doing so. Only when the dentist works on his tooth and repairs the cavity is the tooth actually fixed; and this repair of the tooth is something, again, the dentist's patient can only receive.

In the very same way, trusting in the truth of the Gospel and in Christ as one's Savior doesn't save anyone. It is the object of their trust who saves them and he does so entirely alone, the one-and-only Savior, to whose saving work nothing can be contributed (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5). As Scripture says, salvation is given by God to us as a gift that we can only receive by faith ( Ephesians 2:8; Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; Romans 6:23). A gift is not a gift if one must earn it.




No, baptism is a spiritual event where the Holy Spirit puts those who trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior and submit to him as Lord into Christ, washing and spiritually-regenerating them, and making of them "new creatures in Christ." (Romans 10:9-10; Titus 3:5-8; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Romans 6:1-6; Romans 13:14). Water baptism merely symbolizes this event and connects faith to immediate, corresponding action).



??? Yes, pointing to the Parable of the Prodigal Son is a good idea when trying to understand the difference between relationship and fellowship, and seeing how that, though the latter be lost, the former never is.



As the story of the lost sheep, lost coin and the Prodigal Son all illustrate, separation doesn't dissolve relationship. The relationship of the lost sheep to the Shepherd remained though the sheep was lost. It was because the lost sheep was the Shepherd's sheep that he went out and found it. The relationship of the Shepherd to his own, lost sheep existed even though the sheep had wandered off and become separated from the Shepherd and was the reason the Shepherd went looking for his sheep.

The same is true of the lost coin. The reason the woman searched high-and-low for the coin was because it was her coin. She had a relationship to the lost coin as its possessor and so was determined to find the coin when it was lost. The woman wasn't searching for just any old coin that she was hoping she might find, right? She had a particular coin in mind: Her coin; the coin that belonged to her; the coin that was related to her as her possession.

The same thing is evident in the story of the Prodigal Son, as I've already explained. Always in the story he was his father's son. Never had the son actually died. And immediately upon his return, the father acknowledged his relationship with his son and restored fellowship with him, embracing, kissing, clothing and holding a party for his returned son. Here, too, then, separation - being "lost" - doesn't dissolve relationship.

On what basis does God accept any of us? On the basis of our fellowship with Him? No. ONLY on the basis of our being "in Christ" (Romans 13:14; Galatians 3:27; 2 Corinthians 5:17). We are "accepted in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:7) who is perfect; because he is perfect, he is always accepted by God; and because we are in Christ, who is perfect and always accepted by God, we, too, are always accepted by God. This is the ONLY basis upon which God accepts us and is the ONLY basis upon which He continues to accept us.



Yes. But this is physical death, not spiritual.

You can repent from physical death?

Baptism is physical acts 8 they go down into the water
Acts 22:16 wash away sin

Sharing do we have any part or role to play in redemption?

 

[GodsGrace]

But you're just reading the parable in the way convenient to your view. As Christ tells it, he confirms, over and over, the relationship between father and son.

Luke 15:11-24
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons.
12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them.

Tenchi,
Think of this:
The father gave the son his inheritance. 2/3 because he was the eldest.
He would receive no further inheritance from the father.
He might have still been the son legally - but their relationship was broken.
Had the son never returned home...it would already have ended on the day he left the father.

13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs.
16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger!

I perish here with hunger...
The son was lost and alone.
He realized what a terrible mistake he made.

18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’

The son said he had sinned against heaven and his father.
He asked for forgiveness.
The son stated he was no longer worthy to be called a son.

20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’
22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet.
23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate.

The father was a merciful father and accepted the son back.
Just like our Father God would accept us back if we ever wandered away.
Great was the father's joy. There is more joy in heaven over one repentant sinner...

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

Jesus is telling this parable.
Jesus is teaching us something.
Jesus is saying: "For this my son was DEAD,
and is ALIVE AGAIN.
If the son was alive AGAIN, it means he was lost until this point.
Also, HE WAS LOST, and is FOUND.

Lost from what?

We are all LOST, and we must all be saved.
If one is lost, they're lost.
You can't be lost and saved at the same time.

So, in what way, then, was the son "dead"? He wasn't physically dead.

Spiritually.

And he was always his father's son throughout the story, which the father acknowledges by both his actions and words, running out to meet his returning son, hugging and kissing him before the son even gets a word out, and then calling his child "son" as he explained his command to his servants to prepare a celebration.

This would happen with God Father too.
This is the point Jesus was making.
We will always be welcomed by the Father.

Paul is writing this to the brethren:

James 2:19
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

So, how was the son "dead, and is alive again"? Well, the father explained: "He was lost and is found." The father wasn't speaking of real death, only of separation from his son and the resulting loss of fellowship with him. But this separation never dissolved their familial relationship, as the parable makes very clear.

Your interpretation of what the father meant when he said, "My son is dead" just ignores completely the substance of the parable, denying what is plainly related in it so that you can maintain your view. This ought to alarm you. Your determination to deny the plain facts of God's word in order to sustain a viewpoint is a kind of willful blindness to His Truth that can only have catastrophic spiritual results.

If fellowship is broken with God,,,spiritual death ensues.
Jesus said that we are either with Him or against Him. There is no middle ground.
Mark 9:40

 

[donadams]

1. 1 John 5:16
   If any man see his brother sin a sinwhich is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinunto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
2. 1 John 5:17
   All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi,
Think of this:
The father gave the son his inheritance. 2/3 because he was the eldest.
He would receive no further inheritance from the father.
He might have still been the son legally - but their relationship was broken.
Had the son never returned home...it would already have ended on the day he left the father.

But, you see, I make a distinction between relationship and fellowship. In the parable of the Prodigal Son what was "lost," what was "dead," was their fellowship with one another, never their father-son relationship. Look at your own relationship to your parents. You could travel to the Moon, or the far side of the Milky Way, the physical separation between you and your folks being absolutely enormous, and you'd still be related to them as their daughter. You could despise your parents fiercely, or they you, and you'd still be their daughter. You could even die (God forbid), and your parents would still be your parents and you their daughter, as your obituary would likely indicate.

I have persisting relationships with all sorts of people with whom I have no fellowship. My dentist, my doctor, my new pastor, my brother-in-law, and some of my cousins, for examples. The distinction, then between relationship and fellowship is warranted, the latter term referring to a relationship in which direct, positive, intimate communion takes place between two people. It is this, and only this, that "died" when the Prodigal Son went off into a far country to play the wastrel.

The father was a merciful father and accepted the son back.
Just like our Father God would accept us back if we ever wandered away.
Great was the father's joy. There is more joy in heaven over one repentant sinner...

Right. But the father did not meet his son as a stranger, as someone rejected, cut off from all connection to himself. Instead, the moment the father caught sight of his son, he ran out to him! There was no confession of wrongdoing the son first had to offer, no demonstration of repentance the father demanded of his boy before receiving him back into fellowship with himself, no relationship-restoring procedure the father insisted his wayward boy enact in order to once again be his son. Instead, everything the father did indicated he still considered his son, his son, hugging his boy and, kissing him before any admission of wrong by his son had been made. And when the son did confess his sin, the father just ignored it, calling for clothes, a ring for his boy and a party to be prepared instead.

I just don't see, then, this severing of all ties, the utter dissolution of the relationship between the Prodigal Son and his father in the parable that the saved-and-lost folk want to say the parable teaches. There's just no good ground for such an idea offered anywhere in the story. But there is in the parable a wonderful picture of the total indissolubility of the relationship of the father to his son. Even the most wretched conduct of his boy could not alter their connection to each other as father and child.

Jesus is telling this parable.
Jesus is teaching us something.
Jesus is saying: "For this my son was DEAD,
and is ALIVE AGAIN.
If the son was alive AGAIN, it means he was lost until this point.
Also, HE WAS LOST, and is FOUND.

Lost from what?

We are all LOST, and we must all be saved.
If one is lost, they're lost.
You can't be lost and saved at the same time.

Yes, I hear this interpretation of the parable often. See my response to it above.

Again:

Was the son actually, physically dead? No.

Was the relationship between father and son ever utterly dissolved? No.

What, then, was "dead"? Only one possibility reasonably exists: their fellowship with each other.

Does the "lostness" of the father's son equate to the "lostness" of those who have no relationship to God as their heavenly Father? Making a parallel of this sort doesn't seem reasonable to me since, in the case of the parable, there is a father-son relationship but, in the case of the unbeliever's condition, no such relationship exists at all.

Yes, we are all of us in need of salvation. But once we are saved by Jesus and adopted into God's family, we are forever linked to God through Christ, we are "accepted in the Beloved" with whom God is always perfectly pleased. Our acceptance with God, then, is also always unchanging. His acceptance of us rests in the infinite perfection of our Savior, not in us. And so, we have Hebrews 13:5, Romans 8:31-39 and John 10:27-29.

It's always struck me as...very peculiar that people want to operate under the fear of salvation-lost in their walk with God, resisting the reality that in Christ they are fully and permanently accepted and loved by God.

1 John 4:16-19
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.

 

[Tenchi]

1. 1 John 5:16
   If any man see his brother sin a sinwhich is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinunto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
2. 1 John 5:17
   All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I already told you that John is referring only to physical death of sinning believers. Paul, though, is referring to the effects of a spiritually unregenerate life.