Bible Study Walking By the Spirit: Basic Christian Living.

[Tenchi]

Of course it's the heart. No question.
Does a sinning heart want to honor and love God?
I'd say no----no matter at what point in life this happens.
Before salvation or after salvation.
If we fall back into a sinful life, then we must repent again.

Yes, I agree: Repentance is necessary no matter which side of conversion one is on. In God's family or outside of it, repentance is definitely required. The repentance of a lost person, though, is necessarily different from that of a born-again person. A lost person's repentance is from an entire life lived in rebellion toward God and His Truth; a saved person's repentance is from a contrary-to-identity lapse into self-will and sin, not from total spiritual unregeneracy.

Does a sinning heart desire God? If it was impossible for such a heart to do so, no one would be saved; for all of us are saved out of lives given over to Self and sin, in flagrant rebellion toward God (Titus 3:-35; Ephesians 2:1-9; Colossians 1:21-22). It's no surprise, then, that a saint, though having fallen into sin, still desires to live better, to return to holy fellowship with God. Their sin does not eradicate all desire for God; though, if they persist in their sin, that desire will, in time, cool and eventually disappear entirely. This condition does not develop overnight, after a single wayward moment, but is a progressive thing, continuing against the convicting work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), and the discipline of God (Hebrews 12:5-11).

Ephesians 2:8 states that we are saved by God's grace through faith.

If we have faith, we're saved.
If we do not have faith, how could we be saved?
Nowhere that I can think of in scripture is it stated that we could be saved without faith.
If you have a verse, let me know.

I don't think I indicated that faith had no part to play in bringing a lost person to salvation... Faith, though, doesn't save us. There is only one Savior, only one who can save, and to his saving work we can contribute nothing. Our faith simply puts us in the place where he saves us.

Can't agree with this Tenchi.
God knows no time constraints.
God had already resolved the problem of sin in the Garden.
Jesus has atoned for man's sin from the beginning of time.
Even those in the OT were saved because of Jesus atoning death.
ALL mankind is saved through the propitiatory death of Christ.
1 John 2:2
2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

When, in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, Jesus spoke to his Jewish audience who were still under the Old Covenant (he had not yet made a New Covenant through his atoning work at Calvary), none of them were born-again, as Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be (John 3:5-7). So, though, Jesus's sacrifice of himself on the cross had a retroactive effect, until it had occurred, the Jews were still operating under the old, law-centered, Mosaic Covenant. In light of this, Jesus spoke in his Sermon on the Mount to his mainly Jewish audience in an Old Covenant way, setting a standard for holiness for them beyond the already unattainable Mosaic Law, thus setting the stage for his "new and living way" which would achieve, not mere reconciliation with God, but fellowship with Him (Hebrews 9 -10:22).

I don't see the Sermon on the Mount, then, as addressing Christians under the New Covenant, instructing them on how to live as born-again people or defining the dynamics of their relationship to God as His forever-redeemed children.

I don't understand what the difference would be.
I find it ironical that you would include Hebrews 10:19 for support of your belief.
Hebrews 10:23 warns us that we are TO HOLD FAST the confession of our hope without wavering.

Hebrews 10:11-25
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

This passage describes a state-of-affairs between God and the New Covenant believer that none to whom Jesus was speaking in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 knew anything of, and certainly did not enjoy. Of course, it was impossible that they should, Christ's sacrifice of himself not yet accomplished. When I read this passage and consider how different the dynamic is between myself, a born-again child of God, and those who labored under the Old Mosaic Covenant, I understand how...tertiary Jesus's words in Matthew 7:21-23 are to my life as a New Covenant Christian.

In any case, I don't see Hebrews 10:23 as a warning, but as an exhortation arising from what has been laid out in prior verses about the "new and living way" in which born-again believers stand relative to God. It simply stands to reason that, in light of verses 11-18, verse 23 should follow. This is all it seems to me that the writer of Hebrews is saying in verse 23. Why wouldn't the born-again person "hold fast" such awesome, peace-making, fear-dissolving truth, fully assured of God's acceptance (vs. 22)?

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

I don't really know why you posted Luke 22:20
We are in the New Covenant.
We must REMAIN in the New Covenant in order to be saved at the end.
We must persevere.
We're member's of the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God has regulations just like any Kingdom has.

Luke 22:20 - the shed blood of Christ in atonement for our sin - is the way in which the New Covenant was achieved. I just offered the verse in support of Hebrews 10:19.

I am in the New Covenant because of what God has done through Christ for me, not because of what I have done for myself. I don't, then, get into a relationship with God by dint of my work, my right action, but by the gift of God extended to me in Jesus, my Savior. If I don't enter into God's family and kingdom on the basis of my doings, why should I think I remain in it on this basis? Thinking that it is up to me to retain my salvation is to make myself a co-Savior with Jesus: He gets me in to God's family, but I keep myself in it. This is "another Gospel," as all Jesus + "Gospels" are, not the True Gospel of Salvation in Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5).

I persevere in my faith in Christ because the Holy Spirit dwells within me, imparting to me in himself the ability and desire to do so (Philippians 2:13). As in all things in my walk with God, the impetus and power to move into relationship with God and to continue in it is God's.

John 6:44
John 16:8
2 Timothy 2:25
Jude 1:24-25
Philippians 1:6
1 Thessalonians 5:23-25
1 Peter 5:10

Jesus NEVER stated that all we need to do is believe in Him and we will be saved.
He said more statements like the following:

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Does someone who has walked away from God fit into the above statements?
I believe so.

Jesus never stated that all we need to do is believe in Him and we'll be saved?

John 3:16
John 6:28-29
John 7:37-39

If we add our obedience to the "recipe" of our salvation, we elevate ourselves to co-Savior with Jesus, we make ourselves contributors to our salvation. But the whole reason we need a Savior is that we are utterly unable in our sinfulness to be our own savior.

Romans 5:6
Romans 8:5-8
Titus 3:3
Ephesians 2:1-3

Being sin-corrupted, rebellious, wayward people, we cannot ever meet God's standard of righteous perfection. Even when we are obedient, it is from lives that are always fouled by sin so subtle and secret we cannot see it for what it is. We are powerfully self-deceived creatures and desperately need the work of God, first to save us from the consequences of our innate wickedness, and then to save us from ourselves. Thinking to contribute to the perfect work of Christ by way of our "good" deeds, then, is akin to a child thinking to make the banquet his mother has made better by adding his mud-pie to it.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

In the verse itself, "obey the Son" is made clear: "believes in the Son."

John 3:31-35
31 "He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
32 "What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
33 "He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true.
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
35 "The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.

Verse 36, in context, is referring to the testimony of the Son, who speaks the word of God, that John the Baptist speaking in the passage above said must be believed in order that one might have eternal life. It seems very clear to me that "obey the Son" means to accept his testimony as true and so believe that he is "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." (See also John 3: 15, 16, 18)

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Does John 5:29 actually teach that a born-again person's deeds have salvific power?
John 5:24-29
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

In context, it seems to me that "those who have done good" and so are resurrected to life (vs. 29) are those who have done what verse 24 describes: "hears my word and believes him who sent me." These are the spiritually "dead" who "hear the voice of the Son" and live (vs. 25, Ephesians 2:1). I don't see, then, that this passage supports a works-salvation view.

How about John 15:6? Does it teach a saved-and-lost (which is works-salvation by another name) doctrine?

John 15:1-6
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

As I understand it, this passage offers a contrasting parallelism between the saved person (verses 1-5) and the lost person (vs. 6). It isn't the same person in verse 6 as in verses 1-5. The one abiding in Christ is the saved person and the one who is not is, obviously, the lost person, which is why the person described in verse 6 ends up "thrown into the fire."

In verse 6, Jesus didn't say "If you don't abide in me...," employing the pronoun "you," as he had done in speaking of his disciples abiding in himself in verses 3-5. Jesus's view widened out to "anyone" in verse 6, to those in contrast to his own disciples, in particular, those one who were not in the Vine (i.e. who were not saved). This establishes the idea that two different kinds of people are being put in contrasting parallel to each other in John 15:1-6, not the same kind of person.

Alternatively, the passage deals with spiritual fruitfulness, not with being in the Vine or not. It is certainly fruitfulness that is occupying Christ's thoughts, the word "fruit" appearing five times in the first five verses. Verse 6 is in contrast to the first five verses, describing a spiritually unfruitful person whose spiritual usefulness is described in terms of a branch that is so useless as to be good only for use as fuel for a fire.

I just don't see, in light of these things, that the passages you've offered make a good case for the idea that we are co-Saviors with Jesus, adding our obedience to his saving work in order for it to stick.

Being a daughter that does not obey God is of little value.
God desires our love and our obedience.
Jesus cannot only be our Savior,
He must be our Lord too.
Back to Matthew 7....Those who do the will of the Father.

Which will begins with loving God with all of one's being, not going to church, or casting out demons, or singing in the choir, or doing miracles, or taking Communion, or prophesying in Christ's name. It's entirely possible to do all of these things while disobeying the First and Great Commandment, which is what I think Matthew 7:21-23 illustrates.

The Parable of the Two Sons...
Which one did the Father's will?

Both did, eventually. And though the sons lived in radically different ways, both were sons of their father.

I'm speaking of abandoning God. A conscious decision to not serve Him any longer.

This happens in a myriad of ways in the life of every believer when they resent their spouse, or get annoyed with their children, or snarl at a fellow driver on the road who's driving obnoxiously, or watch a t.v. show that is worldly and full of sin, or indulge in vain imaginings, or curse at the lawnmower when it won't start, ignore an opportunity to love their neighbor, and so on. All sin, short-lived or persistent, big or small, are instances of rebellion toward God, a choosing of our own will and way over His. But God is faithful and does not accept us on the basis of our obedience and goodness but upon the perfect saving work of His Son on our behalf.

Persons that are not saved because they never had faith,
or because they've decided to abandon God, are not part of the family of God.

In either case, they are lost.

No, for the reasons I've already laid out in this thread in various posts, I don't think God's word teaches this at all. When Scripture says NO ONE is able to pluck God's sheep out of His (or Christ's) hand (John 10:27-29), it necessarily means even the "sheep" him/herself. NO ONE is quite universal.

Are you saying that God forces us to remain with Him?
Are you saying that once we become saved we lose our free will to leave God if we no longer wish to serve Him?
Sounds a bit reformed and I know you're not reformed, so maybe you could think over the above statement?

As I explained, there are many things God does to us that we can't reverse. I believe Scripture makes it quite plain that our salvation, our adoption into His family, is one of these things. We are made "new creatures in Christ, old things are passed away" (2 Corinthians 5:17) and this alteration of our nature, this addition of a new nature, is unalterable. This is a metamorphosis of the nature of our being, not merely the taking on of a new relationship with God. And just like I have no power to abandon the nature of my physical being, I cannot just cast off the spiritual regeneration resulting from my conversion.

I can certainly live in rebellion to what God has done to me in making me one of His own, of course, just as I can act to defy God's purposes in making my physical being the way He did, abusing my body, employing it in unnatural, against-design ways. But, again, doing these unnatural things physically cannot dissolve the physical nature of my being, it cannot undo the fundamental humanness God has made me to possess. Likewise, I can act in total contradiction to my second birth, carrying on as though I had never been regenerated spiritually, but this will never reverse the spiritual change to my being God has enacted upon me.

Is this God forcing me to remain with Him? No, though a "new creature in Christ," I'm just as free as the Prodigal Son to wander away from my heavenly Father and off into sin, if I so choose. And just as the Prodigal Son never ceased to be his father's son no matter how wayward he was, I never cease to be God's adopted son though I may grow wayward, too.

And, trust me, I have thought over all of my beliefs very thoroughly.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Cannot sin?

Why do we need to watch and pray? Matt 26:41
Resist the devil? James 4:7
Resist sin? Heb 12:4
Suffer for Christ’s sake Phil 1:29
Deny Thyself carry the cross Matt 10:38
1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

Thks

We do those things, and more, to remain in Christ so we don't commit sin.
The fruit of God's seed will never be liars, adulterers, thieves, or murderers.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Nope. See post #70.

Can apple seeds ever bear plums ?

 

[donadams]

We do those things, and more, to remain in Christ so we don't commit sin.
The fruit of God's seed will never be liars, adulterers, thieves, or murderers.

But you said can’t sin!

We with the help of grace etc. choose to be faithful

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I agree: Repentance is necessary no matter which side of conversion one is on. In God's family or outside of it, repentance is definitely required. The repentance of a lost person, though, is necessarily different from that of a born-again person. A lost person's repentance is from an entire life lived in rebellion toward God and His Truth; a saved person's repentance is from a contrary-to-identity lapse into self-will and sin, not from total spiritual unregeneracy.

Agreed.

Does a sinning heart desire God? If it was impossible for such a heart to do so, no one would be saved; for all of us are saved out of lives given over to Self and sin, in flagrant rebellion toward God (Titus 3:-35; Ephesians 2:1-9; Colossians 1:21-22). It's no surprise, then, that a saint, though having fallen into sin, still desires to live better, to return to holy fellowship with God. Their sin does not eradicate all desire for God; though, if they persist in their sin, that desire will, in time, cool and eventually disappear entirely. This condition does not develop overnight, after a single wayward moment, but is a progressive thing, continuing against the convicting work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), and the discipline of God (Hebrews 12:5-11).

Agreed here too.
I'm not talking about a sin or sinning.
I'm talking about abandoning God.
We all sin. But we don't live lives of sin.
Contrast 1 John 1 and 2:1 and 1 John 3:9
Sinning and living a life of sin are totally different.
Salvation is not lost every time we sin.

But, as you stated - if the person continuous in the sin and their desire for God is eradicated because they persist, and the desire will cool and eventually disappear entirely (your words) will that person still be saved?

What I'm talking about IS going against the work of the Holy Spirit.

I don't think I indicated that faith had no part to play in bringing a lost person to salvation... Faith, though, doesn't save us. There is only one Savior, only one who can save, and to his saving work we can contribute nothing. Our faith simply puts us in the place where he saves us.

No, you didn't indicate that faith has no part in salvation.
What I was pointing out is the Ephesians 2:8 states that we are saved by faith.
If our faith dies (for whatever reason) then we can no longer be saved since it is by faith that we are saved.

But then you state above that faith does not save us and that we have only one Savior.
This is confusing.
God's grace, through our faith, saves us and not by our own works.
Works do not save...only our faith in Jesus (John 3:16) can save us.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about works. I do think we work for God after we're saved....this is how we obey Him. It's all Jesus spoke of.

When, in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7, Jesus spoke to his Jewish audience who were still under the Old Covenant (he had not yet made a New Covenant through his atoning work at Calvary), none of them were born-again, as Jesus told Nicodemus he had to be (John 3:5-7). So, though, Jesus's sacrifice of himself on the cross had a retroactive effect, until it had occurred, the Jews were still operating under the old, law-centered, Mosaic Covenant. In light of this, Jesus spoke in his Sermon on the Mount to his mainly Jewish audience in an Old Covenant way, setting a standard for holiness for them beyond the already unattainable Mosaic Law, thus setting the stage for his "new and living way" which would achieve, not mere reconciliation with God, but fellowship with Him (Hebrews 9 -10:22).

OK. Understood. This goes to how I said that the Holy Spirit accompanied us in the OT, but in the NT the Holy Spirit dwells in us. (He accompanies us too - He is our paraclete).

Also, I'll just add that Jesus made it more difficult to follow Him....not easier. As is plainly stated in Matthew 5.

I don't see the Sermon on the Mount, then, as addressing Christians under the New Covenant, instructing them on how to live as born-again people or defining the dynamics of their relationship to God as His forever-redeemed children.

I understand what you're saying....but wouldn't you agree that ALL of Jesus' teachings are for all humanity?
The entire sermon spanning the 3 chapters in Matthew is for all people.
Paul expounded on the theology of the New Testament/New Covenant. The difference between the OC and the NC is precisely the the idea that we have to be changed from the inside out.

Let's not forget that persons were saved in the OC too. Again, by their faith.
The difference between the old and the new was that now we had a God we could see and love for what He did for us - Jesus. Now we had a visible motive for following God and for being obedient because we could see Jesus hanging on that cross.

Hebrews 10:11-25
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,
25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

This passage describes a state-of-affairs between God and the New Covenant believer that none to whom Jesus was speaking in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 knew anything of, and certainly did not enjoy. Of course, it was impossible that they should, Christ's sacrifice of himself not yet accomplished. When I read this passage and consider how different the dynamic is between myself, a born-again child of God, and those who labored under the Old Mosaic Covenant, I understand how...tertiary Jesus's words in Matthew 7:21-23 are to my life as a New Covenant Christian.

First, let me look up tertiary.
Hmmm. Not sure I understand it.

I think we agree on the before and after. I think we're expressing ourselves in different ways.
It would need to be said that Paul is the person that took all the information he had available to him and extracted from it the entire theology of the NC.
Come to Me all ye who labor and are heaven laden, and I will give you rest....

Loving God with the heart is more difficult than just following a set of rules.
It can also be easier....depending which side you stand on.

IF we love God....His rules will be EASIER to follow.
The OC people did not have this idea. All they knew was the Law and the Law kills.

In any case, I don't see Hebrews 10:23 as a warning, but as an exhortation arising from what has been laid out in prior verses about the "new and living way" in which born-again believers stand relative to God. It simply stands to reason that, in light of verses 11-18, verse 23 should follow. This is all it seems to me that the writer of Hebrews is saying in verse 23. Why wouldn't the born-again person "hold fast" such awesome, peace-making, fear-dissolving truth, fully assured of God's acceptance (vs. 22)?

Continued below.

A warning and an exhortation are the same. In fact, an exhortation is more forceful than a warning.

As to holding fast....
Why would any mention be made of HOLDING FAST, if it were not possible to LET GO.
??

The very fact we are waned/exhorted tells us that what we're being warned against is possible.

 

[Hopeful 2]

But you said can’t sin!

1 John 3:9 says "cannot commit sin".

We with the help of grace etc. choose to be faithful

Agreed.
Those who commit sin choose to be unfaithful.

 

[Tenchi]

Can apple seeds ever bear plums ?

Please see post #70.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Please see post #70.

Can you get grapes from a fig tree ?
Can liars and thieves possibly be born of God's seed ?

 

[Tenchi]

Can you get grapes from a fig tree ?
Can liars and thieves possibly be born of God's seed ?

Already answered in post #70. Give it a read.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Already answered in post #70. Give it a read.

Your "escape act" was a failure.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars. adulterers, thieves, or murderers.
Why ?
Because God's seed remains in them. (1 John 3:9)

 

[Tenchi]

Your "escape act" was a failure.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars. adulterers, thieves, or murderers.
Why ?
Because God's seed remains in them. (1 John 3:9)

Your red-herrings aren't helping you escape the truth I've already explained in post #70.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Your red-herrings aren't helping you escape the truth I've already explained in post #70.

You beleive grape vines can bear figs !

 

[Tenchi]

Agreed here too.
I'm not talking about a sin or sinning.
I'm talking about abandoning God.
We all sin. But we don't live lives of sin.
Contrast 1 John 1 and 2:1 and 1 John 3:9
Sinning and living a life of sin are totally different.
Salvation is not lost every time we sin.

Right. Sin doesn't dissolve our adoption by God. We aren't saved on the basis of our goodness and we can't be unsaved on the basis of badness.

The Prodigal Son, for example, abandoned his father but remained a son to his father nonetheless.

The Israelites, time and time again, abandoned their God for lesser gods, inevitably growing rebellious and vile in the seasons of peace and prosperity God granted them. Did God cast His Chosen People aside, forsaking them forever when they abandoned Him? No. He brought them low and in doing so prompted them to draw near to Him for succor, but He never utterly rejected His own, dissolving all connection to them. Always His ultimate goal in throwing His Chosen People into a "bed of suffering" was restoration. The Israelites on their end may have turned from their God but He on His end remained faithful to them, His connection to them intact no matter their waywardness.

But, as you stated - if the person continuous in the sin and their desire for God is eradicated because they persist, and the desire will cool and eventually disappear entirely (your words) will that person still be saved?

It isn't ever on the basis of our interest, or faithfulness, or good deeds that we are saved. We are saved solely because we have trusted in the saving work of our Savior on our behalf and are thereby placed "in him" as a result. Standing before God in Christ, I am accepted by God; for Christ, being perfect, is always accepted by God and so I, being in him, clothed in his perfection, am always accepted by God, too. (Romans 13;14; Galatians 3:27: Ephesians 1:1-13, etc.)

No, you didn't indicate that faith has no part in salvation.
What I was pointing out is the Ephesians 2:8 states that we are saved by faith.
If our faith dies (for whatever reason) then we can no longer be saved since it is by faith that we are saved.

Well, this makes us our own Savior, doesn't it? If my faith is salvific, then I save myself, it seems to me.

But, if I, say, have faith in my dentist to fix a broken tooth, do I fix my tooth or does my dentist? If I sat in his dental chair, trusting my dentist to fix my tooth for days, or weeks, or even months, but he never actually worked on my tooth, would my broken tooth get fixed? Would my faith in my dentist repair my tooth? Or does my trust in his ability to fix my tooth just put me in the chair so that my dentist can restore my tooth?

But then you state above that faith does not save us and that we have only one Savior.
This is confusing.
God's grace, through our faith, saves us and not by our own works.
Works do not save...only our faith in Jesus (John 3:16) can save us.

Is it our faith that saves us or the Object of our faith, the Savior, Jesus Christ? See my analogy above about the dentist.

I don't want to turn this into a debate about works. I do think we work for God after we're saved....this is how we obey Him. It's all Jesus spoke of.

Our salvation is to be worked out, absolutely (Philippians 2:12). But not in order to maintain or preserve our salvation. The "fruit" of my salvation is just that: fruit - which is to say, the by-product, or result of my salvation. That "fruit" simply manifests the truth of salvation; it doesn't preserve or contribute to it in a maintaining sort of way.

I find it helpful to think of an apple tree in regards to this matter. Is it necessary to an apple tree being an apple tree that it bear apples? Or, with or without apples, is an apple tree an apple tree? What if the apple tree is too immature to bear fruit, a mere sprig sprouting from the dirt? Is it not an apple tree? If it isn't, how will it ever bear apples? What if the apple tree is malnourished, growing in nutrient-depleted soil and able only to barely maintain its life, let alone produce apples? Is it not, therefore, an apple tree? Again, if it isn't, how, then, will it ever bear apples? The apple tree might also be afflicted with disease and destructive pests, or suffering in a drought, and both cases unable to bear apples. Again, the absence of fruit under these conditions wouldn't mean the apple tree is not an apple tree.

If good conditions allow, a healthy, well-watered apple tree will inevitably produce apples but this doesn't mean that bearing apples is necessary to being an apple tree. In the same way, a genuinely born-again Christian will inevitably - if good conditions allow - produce spiritual "fruit," but this doesn't mean that a Christian MUST produce such "fruit" in order to be a Christian. They might be simply too spiritually-immature to bear spiritual "apples"; they might be spiritually malnourished and/or diseased by poor , or outright false, teaching; they might be plagued by a spiritual "pest," some deeply-established sinful thinking and/or behavior, that, until it is removed from their life, powerfully hinders the development of any spiritual "fruit." Like the apple tree that doesn't bear apples, the Christian who has no spiritual fruit in their life - no good works - is not, therefore, not an apple tree.

OK. Understood. This goes to how I said that the Holy Spirit accompanied us in the OT, but in the NT the Holy Spirit dwells in us. (He accompanies us too - He is our paraclete).

In the record of the OT, the Holy Spirit came upon and then left certain people (e.g. Samson), but He did not indwell them in the way he does New Covenant believers.

I'm not clear on the distinction you've made here between the Holy Spirit dwelling in the born-again believer, making of him/her his "temple" (1 Corinthians 3:16; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20) and his "accompanying" believers, too. Wouldn't he inevitably do the latter because of the former?

Also, I'll just add that Jesus made it more difficult to follow Him....not easier. As is plainly stated in Matthew 5.

Impossible in our own strength, yes. But not in his.

Philippians 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.

Isaiah 40:29-31
29 He gives strength to the weary, And to him who lacks might He increases power.
30 Though youths grow weary and tired, And vigorous young men stumble badly,
31 Yet those who wait for the LORD Will gain new strength; They will mount up with wings like eagles, They will run and not get tired, They will walk and not become weary.

I understand what you're saying....but wouldn't you agree that ALL of Jesus' teachings are for all humanity?

There is much value in Christ's words in his Sermon on the Mount for Christians. In the Sermon, Jesus is describing the character of a perfect life, I think, and makes this clear in his remark in Matthew 5:48. The how of such a life is nowhere offered by Christ to his audience in his Sermon, however (for the reason I already explained) and so it is a mistake for a Christian to think about the Sermon on the Mount as providing practical advice on Christian living. It describes the shape of such living but not the means by which such a shape might be achieved., that means residing solely in the Person of the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18; Romans 8:13; Ephesians 3:16, Galatians 5:16, 25).

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

Paul expounded on the theology of the New Testament/New Covenant. The difference between the OC and the NC is precisely the the idea that we have to be changed from the inside out.

Indeed.

Let's not forget that persons were saved in the OC too. Again, by their faith.

Oh? In the New Covenant sense? If so, wouldn't this mean that Christ needn't have died? If folk were able to be saved in the OT without the atoning work of Jesus, why did he sacrifice himself on the cross? There was another way for people to be saved, right?

The difference between the old and the new was that now we had a God we could see and love for what He did for us - Jesus. Now we had a visible motive for following God and for being obedient because we could see Jesus hanging on that cross.

Oh? I don't see this spelled-out in Scripture. Can you show me chapter and verse grounding what you've asserted here, please? I've always understood Scripture to say that Jesus came to be the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 John 4:9-10, etc.), not merely to be God "with skin on." From what I can see in God's word, Christ's chief purpose in coming was not to prove God loved humanity but to establish a "new and living way" by which lost sinners could be reconciled to God and enjoy direct, personal, daily fellowship with Him. (See Hebrews 9-10:22)

It would need to be said that Paul is the person that took all the information he had available to him and extracted from it the entire theology of the NC.

Is this what he claimed?

Galatians 1:11-12
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Which Paul, after a time, submitted to the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem for their approval.

Galatians 2:1-2
1 Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also.
2 It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

So convinced were the early leaders of the Church of the truth of Paul's understanding of the faith given to him by Christ that the apostle Peter acknowledged that Paul was actually writing inspired Scripture:

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 ... just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Paul, then, wasn't just a really clever guy "putting the pieces together," so to speak, forming up from his own ingenuity and knowledge of the OT his own doctrines of the Christian faith.

Come to Me all ye who labor and are heaven laden, and I will give you rest....

This was Paul's priority, too.

1 Corinthians 2:2-5
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

IF we love God....His rules will be EASIER to follow.

Easier? More than "easier"; a delight to obey!

A warning and an exhortation are the same. In fact, an exhortation is more forceful than a warning.

Oh? If I exhort my nephew to do his best in his soccer game, am I warning him, too? About what? I simply want to encourage him and show him I'm interested in his success in the sport, that's all.

As to holding fast....
Why would any mention be made of HOLDING FAST, if it were not possible to LET GO.
??

Well, of course, it is possible to "let slip" the truth, lured away from it by the World, the Flesh and the devil, by wolves in sheeps' clothing, and by false and fleshly doctrines of demons. But I think the "hold fast" injunction is more akin to the exclamation "Wow! Keep 'em in a safe place! Lots of people would steal these, if they could," by a guy whose friend has just shown him his million-dollar coin collection. The guy shown the coin collection doesn't mean to advise the obvious but to express that he understands the enormous value of what he's been shown. This is what I think the writer of Hebrews intended to do in Hebrews 10:23. So amazing and awesome, so valuable, is the "new and living way" the born-again believer possesses the writer of Hebrews gives a "Keep it safe!" sort of exhortation, not to warn or threaten the believer, but to express the great preciousness of what they have in Jesus Christ.

Anyway, thanks for confab! I always enjoy chewing on this stuff!