Bible Study Walking By the Spirit: Basic Christian Living.

[donadams]

I already told you that John is referring only to physical death of sinning believers. Paul, though, is referring to the effects of a spiritually unregenerate life.

Paul is speaking of born again Christians!

Gal 5:5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

 

[GodsGrace]

But, you see, I make a distinction between relationship and fellowship.

Hi T,
This is my favorite parable so I'm happy to discuss it with you.

Those that believe in eternal security (OSAS) always refer to relationship and fellowship.

I don't see that distinction. I understand from the NT that we are all sons of God because He created us, but we are not all sons of God - this would pertain only to believers.
1 John 3:1
John calls us sons of God.

If we are out of fellowship with God, then we are far from Him and are no longer walking toward Him.
We have repented, at some point, but have once again turned our back on Him and are headed the other way as before ... the wrong way. (before we repented,,,,changed our direction).

In the parable of the Prodigal Son what was "lost," what was "dead," was their fellowship with one another, never their father-son relationship. Look at your own relationship to your parents. You could travel to the Moon, or the far side of the Milky Way, the physical separation between you and your folks being absolutely enormous, and you'd still be related to them as their daughter. You could despise your parents fiercely, or they you, and you'd still be their daughter. You could even die (God forbid), and your parents would still be your parents and you their daughter, as your obituary would likely indicate.

I really dislike making human comparisons with biblical matters, but I'll say this:
I would still be my parent's daughter - but they probably would have me out of their will.
(in fact this has happened with one of my friends and their son - very bad relationship).

Jesus said that not everyone who cries Lord Lord would be welcomed, but those that do the will of our Father.
Is a person that has turned away from God doing the will of the Father? Probably not which is why they turn away.

Remaining a daughter has little value if we're out of fellowship.

I have persisting relationships with all sorts of people with whom I have no fellowship. My dentist, my doctor, my new pastor, my brother-in-law, and some of my cousins, for examples. The distinction, then between relationship and fellowship is warranted, the latter term referring to a relationship in which direct, positive, intimate communion takes place between two people. It is this, and only this, that "died" when the Prodigal Son went off into a far country to play the wastrel.

Intimate or not, if we're not walking with God, we're walking away from Him.
Did I already say this?......There is no middle ground.
You're with God or you're against God.

My daughter is born again - my son is not. I once asked Him if He believed in God.
He said He was not committed to God but did not deny Him either.
What would be your reaction to this statement?
Mine is that He is against God, again, there is no middle ground.

Right. But the father did not meet his son as a stranger, as someone rejected, cut off from all connection to himself.

And, on God's part, this never happens throughout scripture.
The lost sheep.
God is always waiting for us to either go to Him or to return to Him if we abandon Him.
God never rejects us...it's we who reject Him.

Instead, the moment the father caught sight of his son, he ran out to him! There was no confession of wrongdoing the son first had to offer, no demonstration of repentance the father demanded of his boy before receiving him back into fellowship with himself, no relationship-restoring procedure the father insisted his wayward boy enact in order to once again be his son.

Agreed. I'd go a step further and say that God already knows before we do when we wish to return to Him.

Instead, everything the father did indicated he still considered his son, his son, hugging his boy and, kissing him before any admission of wrong by his son had been made. And when the son did confess his sin, the father just ignored it, calling for clothes, a ring for his boy and a party to be prepared instead.

Agreed.

I just don't see, then, this severing of all ties, the utter dissolution of the relationship between the Prodigal Son and his father in the parable that the saved-and-lost folk want to say the parable teaches. There's just no good ground for such an idea offered anywhere in the story. But there is in the parable a wonderful picture of the total indissolubility of the relationship of the father to his son. Even the most wretched conduct of his boy could not alter their connection to each other as father and child.

I'd agree with you and all of the above is true too.
But the son did abandon the father.
The father could have gotten sick and died while he was away and there would have been no recourse.
In our case,,,WE would be the one to die. We cannot die separated from God.
There are too many verses that require us to think deeply about this.
We are told to be imitators of Christ....as beloved children.
Ephesians 5:1
If we are not imitators of Christ, as are the lost, do we retain our salvation because we believed at one point, or do we become again like the unbelievers?

I'll just give you 2 verses .... there are many.
Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard...

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”


I don't know how the above can be overlooked or misunderstood.


1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Tenchi


2 of 2

Yes, I hear this interpretation of the parable often. See my response to it above.

Again:

Was the son actually, physically dead? No.

Jesus is speaking about spiritual death...not physical death.
He was dead and is alive AGAIN.
No one was resurrected in this parable.
The son became spiritually dead.
He was living in darkness.
Light cannot live with darkness.

Was the relationship between father and son ever utterly dissolved? No.

What, then, was "dead"? Only one possibility reasonably exists: their fellowship with each other.

The verse does not state the above.
You're reading into it.

Does the "lostness" of the father's son equate to the "lostness" of those who have no relationship to God as their heavenly Father? Making a parallel of this sort doesn't seem reasonable to me since, in the case of the parable, there is a father-son relationship but, in the case of the unbeliever's condition, no such relationship exists at all.

John said that a person that lives in sin or practices sin is of the devil.
1 John 3:8

Whether this happens before one is saved or after he walks away from salvation is the same...the result is the same.

Yes, we are all of us in need of salvation. But once we are saved by Jesus and adopted into God's family, we are forever linked to God through Christ, we are "accepted in the Beloved" with whom God is always perfectly pleased. Our acceptance with God, then, is also always unchanging. His acceptance of us rests in the infinite perfection of our Savior, not in us. And so, we have Hebrews 13:5, Romans 8:31-39 and John 10:27-29.

Hebrews 13:5
God will never desert us. Our heart will be strengthened by grace.
Through Him, then, let us offer up a sacrifice of praise to God.
Hebrews 13:6-14 and before verse 5 we have a list of what to do or not do.
What if we don't adhere to this list??

Romans 8:31-39
Nothing can separate us except ourselves.

John 10:27-29
Ditto

It's always struck me as...very peculiar that people want to operate under the fear of salvation-lost in their walk with God, resisting the reality that in Christ they are fully and permanently accepted and loved by God.

1 John 4:16-19
16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
19 We love because he first loved us.

But the above says that AS HE IS SO ALSO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD.
What if we're not like HIM in this world?

Everywhere we read how we are to behave.

I don't operate under the fear of losing my salvation.
And remember that this could work the other way too....
We had a member right here that stated he could blaspheme the Holy Spirit and still be saved.

We are saved by grace through faith.
Then the NT continues to tell us things to DO, and behaviors we are to conform to.

Just because we believed in God one time in our lives, will not carry us through to the end.

Jesus said we will be judged by our good works.
John 5:28

 

[Tenchi]

Paul is speaking of born again Christians!

Gal 5:5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:18-25
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

The letter to the Galatians is addressed to born-again believers, yes; but this doesn't mean that everything in the letter is about born-again believers. The above passage illustrates this. In it, Paul contrasts two different sorts of people and two opposite ways of living that they take up. There are those "led by the Spirit" who are "not under the law" (vs. 18) and those who do the "works of the flesh," which Paul lists in verses 20 and 21. The latter, Paul warns, "will not inherit the kingdom of God" (vs. 21) implying that such deeds were characteristic of the person not yet in God's kingdom. Unlike these fleshly, spiritually-unregenerate people, those who "live by the Spirit," which is to say those who are born-again by the Holy Spirit (1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5), will experience the fruit of the Spirit in their lives (vs. 22-23) as they "keep in step" or "walk in/by the Spirit" (vs. 25).

I don't, then, see that Paul has in view in this passage only one sort of person, the born-again believer, in whose life the "fruit" of the Spirit is manifesting but whose life is also characterized commonly by the works of the flesh. Instead, Paul is using a common, Jewish, literary device called a parallelism (in this case, a contrasting one) which holds two distinct and separate things in parallel to each other. Paul, therefore, has two opposite types of people in view in the passage above, not a single type with two opposite types of living. So, then, the above passage doesn't serve as proper ground for a saved-and-lost doctrine.

 

[Tenchi]

Hi T,
This is my favorite parable so I'm happy to discuss it with you.

Those that believe in eternal security (OSAS) always refer to relationship and fellowship.

Do they? Well, that's good. So does the Bible:

2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1 John 1:3
3 ...our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

I don't see that distinction. I understand from the NT that we are all sons of God because He created us, but we are not all sons of God - this would pertain only to believers.

We are all God's creatures, beings created by Him, but we are not all His adopted children (Galatians 4:5-7). Such a relationship to God is only possible through the Holy Spirit indwelling a person (1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9-16; John 14:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20). For those who are "temples of the Holy Spirit," two states are possible: 1.) living in/by the Spirit, which is simply to be made alive spiritually by the Spirit and 2.) walking in/by the Spirit, which is characterized by the constant control of the Holy Spirit ("led of the Spirit - Romans 8:14; Galatians 5:18; Romans 6:13-22). Only in the latter circumstance can the born-again person truly enjoy fellowship - direct, personal, intimate communion - with God. As I understand it from God's word, there are these two very clear, distinct, fundamental states in which a born-again person can live.

If we are out of fellowship with God, then we are far from Him and are no longer walking toward Him.
We have repented, at some point, but have once again turned our back on Him and are headed the other way as before ... the wrong way. (before we repented,,,,changed our direction).

I agree that being out of fellowship with God is to no longer be walking rightly with Him. But as the parable of the Prodigal Son, or lost sheep illustrate, this doesn't mean the end of one's relationship to God as His child. This is because that relationship isn't anchored in us but in Christ and so is inviolate.

I really dislike making human comparisons with biblical matters,

Well, I refer to your human relationship to your parents because Jesus's own Prodigal Son parable uses this relationship in illustration of his points.

Will have to continue the rest of my answer to your posts later.

 

[donadams]

Galatians 5:18-25
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

The letter to the Galatians is addressed to born-again believers, yes; but this doesn't mean that everything in the letter is about born-again believers. The above passage illustrates this. In it, Paul contrasts two different sorts of people and two opposite ways of living that they take up. There are those "led by the Spirit" who are "not under the law" (vs. 18) and those who do the "works of the flesh," which Paul lists in verses 20 and 21. The latter, Paul warns, "will not inherit the kingdom of God" (vs. 21) implying that such deeds were characteristic of the person not yet in God's kingdom. Unlike these fleshly, spiritually-unregenerate people, those who "live by the Spirit," which is to say those who are born-again by the Holy Spirit (1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5), will experience the fruit of the Spirit in their lives (vs. 22-23) as they "keep in step" or "walk in/by the Spirit" (vs. 25).

I don't, then, see that Paul has in view in this passage only one sort of person, the born-again believer, in whose life the "fruit" of the Spirit is manifesting but whose life is also characterized commonly by the works of the flesh. Instead, Paul is using a common, Jewish, literary device called a parallelism (in this case, a contrasting one) which holds two distinct and separate things in parallel to each other. Paul, therefore, has two opposite types of people in view in the passage above, not a single type with two opposite types of living. So, then, the above passage doesn't serve as proper ground for a saved-and-lost doctrine.

If you choose to sin you move from grace to a fallen state requiring repentance

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now nocondemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If walk after the spirit, but if by the flesh (sin) there is condemnation

 

[donadams]

Live & walk by the spirit!

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

A big “if”?

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4)
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

Ex 20 obey the Ten Commandments
Deut. 6:4 obey the two greatest commandments
Matt 28:20 obey christ’s commandments
Acts 1:2 obey christ’s commandments
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ
Mk 13:13 endure to the end
Matt 24:14 endure to the end
1 Jn 2:24-25 abide and continue in Christ
Rom 8:17 suffer with Christ
Rom 11:22 continue or be cut off
Col 1:21-23 if you continue
Col 2-5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:11-13 suffer
Phil 1:29 suffer for Christ’s sake
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 fall away
Heb 12:22-25 lost if we turn away
1 Jn 5:16 sin unto death

We still have free will and can choose (volition) to reject Christ and the faith and renounce our baptism

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Abide in faith, but not faith alone!

 

[Tenchi]

If you choose to sin you move from grace to a fallen state requiring repentance

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now nocondemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

If walk after the spirit, but if by the flesh (sin) there is condemnation

This is just contradiction. There's no engagement with my points at all. Just contradiction. You're not actually discussing this issue which makes me think you just want to declare your views not test them or perhaps learn.

 

[donadams]

This is just contradiction. There's no engagement with my points at all. Just contradiction. You're not actually discussing this issue which makes me think you just want to declare your views not test them or perhaps learn.

Jn 15:1-4

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

You can’t say the branches are not saved (process of salvation) or not born again or spirit filled cos they were in Christ and connected to the vine!

The apostolic church is the mystical body of Christ.

A limb that has a cut off from the body dies, life remains with the body!

Serious Sin causes spiritual death and requires repentance before physical death makes the separation permanent. 1 Jn 5:16

 

[donadams]

This is just contradiction. There's no engagement with my points at all. Just contradiction. You're not actually discussing this issue which makes me think you just want to declare your views not test them or perhaps learn.

One at a time and we can discuss them, go

 

[Tenchi]

Jn 15:1-4

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

You can’t say the branches are not saved (process of salvation) or not born again or spirit filled cos they were in Christ and connected to the vine!

The apostolic church is the mystical body of Christ.

A limb that has a cut off from the body dies, life remains with the body!

Serious Sin causes spiritual death and requires repentance before physical death makes the separation permanent. 1 Jn 5:16

"Takes away" or "cuts off" in verse 2 is actually a bad translation of "airo(o)" which actually means "to lift up" - a rendering of "airo(o)" that comports far better both with the actual practices of vineyard dressers of Christ's time and with the larger context of his words in the passage and in the whole of the New Testament. According to the ancient historian, Pliny, unfruitful branches were trimmed of "sucker sproutings" and lifted up off the ground where damp and shadow stifled growth and fruitfulness. (See: “Viticulture and John 15:1-6” by Gary W. Derickson)

There are so many instances, too, in the NT where God says to us that He endures with His struggling, wayward children, working to advance them in their fellowship with Himself, not cut them off!

1 Corinthians 1:7-9
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

Philippians 1:6
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Psalm 103:8-14
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.
9 He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.
14 For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust.

Titus 3:2-7
2 to malign no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing every consideration for all men.
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I read these passages and in their light see clearly that was has been rendered "takes away" or "cuts off" in John 15:2 ought to be translated in the way that comports much better with these passages (and, as I pointed out, the viticulture practices of Christ's time): "lifts up."

There are also, of course, the many instances in the NT where sinning saints are clearly in view: 1 Corinthians 3:5, 6, 11, Galatians 3;1-3, Romans 6:1-6, 1 John 1:8-10; 1 John 2:1, Revelation 2-3, etc.. How does one make sense of these (and many other similar passages) if one takes John 15:2 as you want to assert, donadams? No such believers could exist if "airo(o)" in John 15:2 truly means "cut off" or "takes away." But there they are in Scripture, confounding the "takes away" rendering of John 15:2 over and over again.

 

[Tenchi]

One at a time and we can discuss them, go

How about you read my posts, understand them, and then respond to what's actually in them rather than just reflexively copy-pasting your already-prepared talking points that only very tangentially have anything to do with my posts? Constantly, you simply talk past what I've pointed out, ignoring my actual arguments, and toss out lists of verses that you have just assumed obviously teach what you think they do. But as my posts have repeatedly demonstrated - my last one to you a good example - your assumptions are by no means warranted. Nonetheless, because you aren't actually really interacting with my posts, you respond with off-point verses/passages that make whatever point you feel like making but which almost entirely ignore what I've written. Having done this all throughout our exchange in this thread, you now ask me to do so again "one at a time"? When you've shown me you can deal directly and seriously with what I've already written, I will have motivation to do as you've asked me to do in the quotation above.

 

[Tenchi]

Jesus said that not everyone who cries Lord Lord would be welcomed, but those that do the will of our Father.
Is a person that has turned away from God doing the will of the Father? Probably not which is why they turn away.

Remaining a daughter has little value if we're out of fellowship.

When Jesus told that dreadful story in Matthew 7:21-23 that he did, his main emphasis was on "doing the will of the Father." Those who thought they'd been doing His will never said a word, though, about obeying His First and Great Commandment. A strange thing, eh? If I was going to make a case from my obedience to God for my entrance into His kingdom, I'd start with the command God says is at the top of the heap, the most important one. But they don't. They talk about other things, good things, but not the best thing, the first and great thing, that has to do with their heart, not their external conduct.

Anyway, it's obvious that one who is disobeying God, who has "turned away from Him," is not doing His will. But, I would point out that Jesus's story in Matthew 7:21-23 was given to Jews under the context of the Old Covenant. He had not yet atoned for mankind's sin and so said nothing in his Sermon on the Mount about having done so, about the need to trust in him as Savior and submit to him as Lord, about the indwelling, spiritually-regenerating, empowering Holy Spirit, about the "new and living way," the "New Covenant in his blood" that his work at Calvary would create (Hebrews 10:19-22; Luke 22:20), and the adoption of God of all those redeemed and reconciled to Himself through Jesus Christ. All of these things, though, make an enormous difference to what it means for a person to wander from God.

The born-again child of God is connected to God in a way none of those under the Old Covenant were, none of those Jews to whom Jesus was speaking in his Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 were reconciled and adopted by God as "joint-heirs with Christ," none could call out to Him "Abba! Father!" (Romans 8:15) as you and I can today. And so, in light of all these things, I don't read Matthew 7:21-23, as instructive, or pertaining, to born-again children of God, to those fully and eternally "accepted in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:6; John 10:27-29)

I don't know what you mean exactly by "little value"? Your born-again status makes a huge difference, even when you might be wandering from your Heavenly Father. The lost sheep was found because it was the shepherd's sheep. The lost coin was searched for and discovered because it was the possession of the one who searched for it. Wayward though he'd been, the Prodigal Son returned to his father and was eagerly accepted by him because he was his father's son. And eternally, one's adoption has obvious and everlasting value.

Intimate or not, if we're not walking with God, we're walking away from Him.
Did I already say this?......There is no middle ground.
You're with God or you're against God.

Yes. But for the wayward believer this doesn't mean salvation-lost.

My daughter is born again - my son is not. I once asked Him if He believed in God.
He said He was not committed to God but did not deny Him either.
What would be your reaction to this statement?
Mine is that He is against God, again, there is no middle ground.

Yes, I'd agree with you here. But what is true for your son in his wandering from a God who is only his wrathful Judge (John 3:36) is not true for your daughter who knows God, not as Judge, but as her Heavenly Father. Being in God's family, a joint-heir with Christ, makes a big difference to how God deals with us when we grow rebellious. See Hebrews 12:5-11

And, on God's part, this never happens throughout scripture.
The lost sheep.
God is always waiting for us to either go to Him or to return to Him if we abandon Him.
God never rejects us...it's we who reject Him.

You give to yourself more power in your relationship to God here, than I think you have good grounds for doing. The salvation of any person is, in the final analysis, something that God does to/for them, not something they achieve for themselves. And like the work of God in other domains, God's work in saving us is not something we can reverse as we wish.

He didn't consult me when He decided to make me; I exist (forever) whatever feeling about doing so I may have and there's nothing I can do that will dissolve this fact. God made me a certain way physically and, again, He didn't consult me first, or give me the power to alter my physical dimensions, or sex, or the shape or placement of my liver, intestines, lungs or brain, etc., or who my parents or siblings are. When, then, God makes me a "new creature in Christ," He does not consult me about the nature or details of what He does, applying to me for any adjustments I'd like to make to His redemptive, spiritually-enlivening work. It's His work He's doing, after all, not mine, and so I have no direct power over how and what He does to save me.

And so, just as I can't tell the brain surgeon whose removing my brain tumor how best to operate on me, directing the actual surgery he performs on me and its results, I can't direct God in the saving work He enacts in my spiritual second-birth. And just as I can't undo the life-saving, surgical results of the brain surgeon's work, I can't undo God's life-saving spiritual surgery that He performs on me in redeeming me from myself and making me one of His. It's done and can't be undone. Once in God's hand, NO ONE - not even I, myself - can take me out of His hand.

If we are not imitators of Christ, as are the lost, do we retain our salvation because we believed at one point, or do we become again like the unbelievers?

1 Corinthians 3:1, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 6:1-3, 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 2:1, Revelation 2-3. Saints sin. They don't cease to be saints when they do. It seems to me the NT is crystal clear about this.

Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard...

Is this a warning of salvation-lost, though? Or is this the construction you've assumed is present in Paul's words? Is Paul speaking in verse 23 of salvation, or of being presented to God "holy, blameless and beyond reproach" at the Final Judgment? These aren't the same thing.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Here, Paul indicates that it's possible for one to stand before God on Judgment Day receiving no reward of any kind from Him, with the "smoke of hell on their clothes," who will still enter God's kingdom as one of His adopted children.

The reconciling, redeeming work of Christ in our lives is aimed at presenting us to God at the Final Judgment as people who are "holy, blameless and above reproach. But we have to participate in this, exercising faith in Christ's finished work, not being shifted from our settled confidence in our spiritual position in him by which we are made "partakers of the divine nature" in our daily experience (2 Peter 1:3-4). If we don't, we'll end up at the Final Judgment, not cast out from God, but bereft of any reward and "smelling of smoke." This is how I understand what Paul wrote to the Colossians.

Out of time for now. Will write more later.

 

[Hopeful 2]

When Jesus told that dreadful story in Matthew 7:21-23 that he did, his main emphasis was on "doing the will of the Father." Those who thought they'd been doing His will never said a word, though, about obeying His First and Great Commandment. A strange thing, eh? If I was going to make a case from my obedience to God for my entrance into His kingdom, I'd start with the command God says is at the top of the heap, the most important one. But they don't. They talk about other things, good things, but not the best thing, the first and great thing, that has to do with their heart, not their external conduct.

Anyway, it's obvious that one who is disobeying God, who has "turned away from Him," is not doing His will. But, I would point out that Jesus's story in Matthew 7:21-23 was given to Jews under the context of the Old Covenant. He had not yet atoned for mankind's sin and so said nothing in his Sermon on the Mount about having done so, about the need to trust in him as Savior and submit to him as Lord, about the indwelling, spiritually-regenerating, empowering Holy Spirit, about the "new and living way," the "New Covenant in his blood" that his work at Calvary would create (Hebrews 10:19-22; Luke 22:20), and the adoption of God of all those redeemed and reconciled to Himself through Jesus Christ. All of these things, though, make an enormous difference to what it means for a person to wander from God.

The born-again child of God is connected to God in a way none of those under the Old Covenant were, none of those Jews to whom Jesus was speaking in his Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 were reconciled and adopted by God as "joint-heirs with Christ," none could call out to Him "Abba! Father!" (Romans 8:15) as you and I can today. And so, in light of all these things, I don't read Matthew 7:21-23, as instructive, or pertaining, to born-again children of God, to those fully and eternally "accepted in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:6; John 10:27-29)

I don't know what you mean exactly by "little value"? Your born-again status makes a huge difference, even when you might be wandering from your Heavenly Father. The lost sheep was found because it was the shepherd's sheep. The lost coin was searched for and discovered because it was the possession of the one who searched for it. Wayward though he'd been, the Prodigal Son returned to his father and was eagerly accepted by him because he was his father's son. And eternally, one's adoption has obvious and everlasting value.



Yes. But for the wayward believer this doesn't mean salvation-lost.



Yes, I'd agree with you here. But what is true for your son in his wandering from a God who is only his wrathful Judge (John 3:36) is not true for your daughter who knows God, not as Judge, but as her Heavenly Father. Being in God's family, a joint-heir with Christ, makes a big difference to how God deals with us when we grow rebellious. See Hebrews 12:5-11


You give to yourself more power in your relationship to God here, than I think you have good grounds for doing. The salvation of any person is, in the final analysis, something that God does to/for them, not something they achieve for themselves. And like the work of God in other domains, God's work in saving us is not something we can reverse as we wish.

He didn't consult me when He decided to make me; I exist (forever) whatever feeling about doing so I may have and there's nothing I can do that will dissolve this fact. God made me a certain way physically and, again, He didn't consult me first, or give me the power to alter my physical dimensions, or sex, or the shape or placement of my liver, intestines, lungs or brain, etc., or who my parents or siblings are. When, then, God makes me a "new creature in Christ," He does not consult me about the nature or details of what He does, applying to me for any adjustments I'd like to make to His redemptive, spiritually-enlivening work. It's His work He's doing, after all, not mine, and so I have no direct power over how and what He does to save me.

And so, just as I can't tell the brain surgeon whose removing my brain tumor how best to operate on me, directing the actual surgery he performs on me and its results, I can't direct God in the saving work He enacts in my spiritual second-birth. And just as I can't undo the life-saving, surgical results of the brain surgeon's work, I can't undo God's life-saving spiritual surgery that He performs on me in redeeming me from myself and making me one of His. It's done and can't be undone. Once in God's hand, NO ONE - not even I, myself - can take me out of His hand.



1 Corinthians 3:1, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 6:1-3, 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 2:1, Revelation 2-3. Saints sin. They don't cease to be saints when they do. It seems to me the NT is crystal clear about this.



Is this a warning of salvation-lost, though? Or is this the construction you've assumed is present in Paul's words? Is Paul speaking in verse 23 of salvation, or of being presented to God "holy, blameless and beyond reproach" at the Final Judgment? These aren't the same thing.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Here, Paul indicates that it's possible for one to stand before God on Judgment Day receiving no reward of any kind from Him, with the "smoke of hell on their clothes," who will still enter God's kingdom as one of His adopted children.

The reconciling, redeeming work of Christ in our lives is aimed at presenting us to God at the Final Judgment as people who are "holy, blameless and above reproach. But we have to participate in this, exercising faith in Christ's finished work, not being shifted from our settled confidence in our spiritual position in him by which we are made "partakers of the divine nature" in our daily experience (2 Peter 1:3-4). If we don't, we'll end up at the Final Judgment, not cast out from God, but bereft of any reward and "smelling of smoke." This is how I understand what Paul wrote to the Colossians.

Out of time for now. Will write more later.

If your fruit is of the devil. you will join the devil in the lake of fire.

 

[GodsGrace]

When Jesus told that dreadful story in Matthew 7:21-23 that he did, his main emphasis was on "doing the will of the Father." Those who thought they'd been doing His will never said a word, though, about obeying His First and Great Commandment. A strange thing, eh? If I was going to make a case from my obedience to God for my entrance into His kingdom, I'd start with the command God says is at the top of the heap, the most important one. But they don't. They talk about other things, good things, but not the best thing, the first and great thing, that has to do with their heart, not their external conduct.

Anyway, it's obvious that one who is disobeying God, who has "turned away from Him," is not doing His will. But, I would point out that Jesus's story in Matthew 7:21-23 was given to Jews under the context of the Old Covenant. He had not yet atoned for mankind's sin and so said nothing in his Sermon on the Mount about having done so, about the need to trust in him as Savior and submit to him as Lord, about the indwelling, spiritually-regenerating, empowering Holy Spirit, about the "new and living way," the "New Covenant in his blood" that his work at Calvary would create (Hebrews 10:19-22; Luke 22:20), and the adoption of God of all those redeemed and reconciled to Himself through Jesus Christ. All of these things, though, make an enormous difference to what it means for a person to wander from God.

The born-again child of God is connected to God in a way none of those under the Old Covenant were, none of those Jews to whom Jesus was speaking in his Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7 were reconciled and adopted by God as "joint-heirs with Christ," none could call out to Him "Abba! Father!" (Romans 8:15) as you and I can today. And so, in light of all these things, I don't read Matthew 7:21-23, as instructive, or pertaining, to born-again children of God, to those fully and eternally "accepted in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:6; John 10:27-29)

I don't know what you mean exactly by "little value"? Your born-again status makes a huge difference, even when you might be wandering from your Heavenly Father. The lost sheep was found because it was the shepherd's sheep. The lost coin was searched for and discovered because it was the possession of the one who searched for it. Wayward though he'd been, the Prodigal Son returned to his father and was eagerly accepted by him because he was his father's son. And eternally, one's adoption has obvious and everlasting value.



Yes. But for the wayward believer this doesn't mean salvation-lost.



Yes, I'd agree with you here. But what is true for your son in his wandering from a God who is only his wrathful Judge (John 3:36) is not true for your daughter who knows God, not as Judge, but as her Heavenly Father. Being in God's family, a joint-heir with Christ, makes a big difference to how God deals with us when we grow rebellious. See Hebrews 12:5-11


You give to yourself more power in your relationship to God here, than I think you have good grounds for doing. The salvation of any person is, in the final analysis, something that God does to/for them, not something they achieve for themselves. And like the work of God in other domains, God's work in saving us is not something we can reverse as we wish.

He didn't consult me when He decided to make me; I exist (forever) whatever feeling about doing so I may have and there's nothing I can do that will dissolve this fact. God made me a certain way physically and, again, He didn't consult me first, or give me the power to alter my physical dimensions, or sex, or the shape or placement of my liver, intestines, lungs or brain, etc., or who my parents or siblings are. When, then, God makes me a "new creature in Christ," He does not consult me about the nature or details of what He does, applying to me for any adjustments I'd like to make to His redemptive, spiritually-enlivening work. It's His work He's doing, after all, not mine, and so I have no direct power over how and what He does to save me.

And so, just as I can't tell the brain surgeon whose removing my brain tumor how best to operate on me, directing the actual surgery he performs on me and its results, I can't direct God in the saving work He enacts in my spiritual second-birth. And just as I can't undo the life-saving, surgical results of the brain surgeon's work, I can't undo God's life-saving spiritual surgery that He performs on me in redeeming me from myself and making me one of His. It's done and can't be undone. Once in God's hand, NO ONE - not even I, myself - can take me out of His hand.



1 Corinthians 3:1, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 6:1-3, 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 2:1, Revelation 2-3. Saints sin. They don't cease to be saints when they do. It seems to me the NT is crystal clear about this.



Is this a warning of salvation-lost, though? Or is this the construction you've assumed is present in Paul's words? Is Paul speaking in verse 23 of salvation, or of being presented to God "holy, blameless and beyond reproach" at the Final Judgment? These aren't the same thing.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Here, Paul indicates that it's possible for one to stand before God on Judgment Day receiving no reward of any kind from Him, with the "smoke of hell on their clothes," who will still enter God's kingdom as one of His adopted children.

The reconciling, redeeming work of Christ in our lives is aimed at presenting us to God at the Final Judgment as people who are "holy, blameless and above reproach. But we have to participate in this, exercising faith in Christ's finished work, not being shifted from our settled confidence in our spiritual position in him by which we are made "partakers of the divine nature" in our daily experience (2 Peter 1:3-4). If we don't, we'll end up at the Final Judgment, not cast out from God, but bereft of any reward and "smelling of smoke." This is how I understand what Paul wrote to the Colossians.

Out of time for now. Will write more later.

There's a lot here Tenchi.
1 Cor 3:11-15 is used by the CC to justify purgatory.
Wrong.
And I also don't believe it's saying what you've posted.
Too late here - Tomorrow.

 

[Tenchi]

There's a lot here Tenchi.
1 Cor 3:11-15 is used by the CC to justify purgatory.
Wrong.

Yes, it's an extraordinarily...thin interpretation of the passage that the RC folk make to twist it 'round in support of purgatorial "purification."

 

[Tenchi]

If your fruit is of the devil. you will join the devil in the lake of fire.

Nope. Saints sin. See 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 2:1, Revelation 2-3, Romans 6:1-2, Galatians 3:1-3, etc.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is speaking about spiritual death...not physical death.
He was dead and is alive AGAIN.
No one was resurrected in this parable.
The son became spiritually dead.
He was living in darkness.
Light cannot live with darkness.

Amen. Irrefutable.

Spiritual death, thus requiring repentance to be reconciled back to the father.



JLB

 

[Tenchi]

Amen. Irrefutable.

Spiritual death, thus requiring repentance to be reconciled back to the father.



JLB

Nope. Entirely refutable. Just read my posts throughout this thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, it's an extraordinarily...thin interpretation of the passage that the RC folk make to twist it 'round in support of purgatorial "purification."

Agreed.
I hurt my hand and cant reply to your long post.
Hope to be able to type in a couple of days.
Not ignoring you...