Was Christ capable of Sin?

[Consecrated Life]

The vast majority of objections in this thread to the OP are the same objections written different ways, and by alternate user names. Consecrated Life had a post #21 that they deleted immediately before I posted this.

Who is this "they" that you say deleted my post ?
And for what reason did "they" delete my post ?
And user name has always been the same .

 

[Consecrated Life]

Faulty argument.

It was also said that satan left Jesus alone after tempting Him because satan realized He couldn't be tempted at all. Another silly argument as Luke 4:13 tells us clearly that he only left Him until a more opportune time. Just exactly as he operates with us.

Jesus may have looked like us when He walked the earth, but His Spirit was the Spirit of God.
Ours is not.
Today there is an element of darkness in my spirit and in yours .
The scripture tells that only when we see His face will we be EXACTLY like Him.
With no remaining element of darkness in us.
It is this element of darkness that is still with us as Christians that causes us to yield to temptation and commit sin.
Jesus could feel our temptations that we are tempted with , but with no darkness at all in Him He could never yield to sin as a result of being tempted:

1Jo 1:5
.....in him is no darkness at all.

The devil was schooled by Jesus to this fact in the wilderness.
That is why Jesus was able to say of their encounter that Satan saw absolutely NOTHING in Him that he could exploit:

Jhn 14:30
..... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus may have looked like us when He walked the earth, but His Spirit was the Spirit of God.
Ours is not.
Today there is an element of darkness in my spirit and in yours .
The scripture tells that only when we see His face will we be EXACTLY like Him.
With no remaining element of darkness in us.
It is this element of darkness that is still with us as Christians that causes us to yield to temptation and commit sin.
Jesus could feel our temptations that we are tempted with , but with no darkness at all in Him He could never yield to sin as a result of being tempted:

1Jo 1:5
.....in him is no darkness at all.

The devil was schooled by Jesus to this fact in the wilderness.
That is why Jesus was able to say of their encounter that Satan saw absolutely NOTHING in Him that he could exploit:

Jhn 14:30
..... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Very good post CL.

Just a quick aside, I don't want to derail.

What you call the darkness in us is what is generally called the sin nature.
I THINK we discussed this some time ago. Not sure.
No reply really necessary.

 

[Josef]

The vast majority of objections in this thread to the OP are the same objections written different ways, and by alternate user names. Consecrated Life had a post #21 that they deleted immediately before I posted this.

The reason that post and this one of Josef 's are so similar is because they are the same person.

Post #21 that is now very obviously missing from this thread was absolutely ridiculous in its claims that satan had no awareness of who Christ was as the Bible clearly states that the lower demons knew exactly who He was and cried out loud about it - to which they were told by Christ to be silent.

Faulty argument.

It was also said that satan left Jesus alone after tempting Him because satan realized He couldn't be tempted at all. Another silly argument as Luke 4:13 tells us clearly that he only left Him until a more opportune time. Just exactly as he operates with us. We are told to resist the devil and he will flee, but we know that he certainly doesn't flee forever. He always returns when we are vulnerable - just exactly as he operated with Jesus BECAUSE Jesus WAS vulnerable to sin.

Hey All,
I'm infamous. Who knew?
You made me smile F345T.

"Post #21 that is now very obviously missing from this thread was absolutely ridiculous in its claims that satan had no awareness of who Christ was as the Bible clearly states that the lower demons knew exactly who He was and cried out loud about it - to which they were told by Christ to be silent." Quote from F345T

One could argue that Satan did not know who the Christchild was when He was born. I may have said that. I can argue that based on Matthew 2. (Read the whole passage to get the whole account.) Here are the key factors with which I will make my case.


Matthew 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Who do you think was agitating the trouble. Herod knew what this meant. Herod (and Satan causing the trouble), the chief priests and scribes had a good thing going. A king with rightful claim would mess it all up. He wanted to know which child was the Christchild. The wisemen never returned to tell Herod. (Just think, cause I just thought about it while editing; the three wisemen saved the Savior by not returning to Herod.) At the same time an angel tells Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Herod doesn't know. You have to believe Satan didn't know at this point. Because we get this:

Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

What an extreme act to kill one child? Satan is not stupid. That is pretty strong evidence that Satan did not know which child was Jesus. It is not first person confession proof. But I could probably get a conviction on Satan for being the mastermind of a mass murder charge ala Charles Manson. (Google him. What a sicko!)

If I wrote something like that, I will own it all day long and tomorrow too.

Or, maybe, just maybe, the vast number of objections come from a vast number of people who disagree with you.

"It's not me. It's you." (I know that's from a TV show. I just cannot remember which one. But proper credit where due.)

Now let's get back to having an actual discussion.


Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Consecrated Life]

Very good post CL.

Just a quick aside, I don't want to derail.

What you call the darkness in us is what is generally called the sin nature.
I THINK we discussed this some time ago. Not sure.
No reply really necessary.

yes the darkness is our sin nature.
But I did stop short of specifying that although we retain a sin nature the description of it as darkness is more detailed in the fact that as long as we move forward to the Light the darkness in us is fading with each day.
In other words the instances that we actually do sin should become less and less as we move toward the light .
I we do not find ourselves sinning less and less with the passage of time then we need to examine ourselves.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Satan is not all knowing & did not know all things about Jesus's nature before the wilderness encounter.
Until the day we die Satan will never give up his attacks on us, because he knows we remain vulnerable by temptation to sin.
After the wilderness encounter however Satan never again came to Jesus to tempt him.
He always has hope of finding something in us.
He found nothing in the Lord.
The only reason Satan would gave up on Jesus can be that he learned that Jesus invulnerable to be tempted to the point of sinning.
If there was even the slightest possibility there Satan would have never given up tempting Jesus.
The one that was sent to destroy him.

Jhn 14:30
...... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

This is Post #21 of mine.
You will notice that what I have said is that Satan is both not all knowing & did not know ALL things about Christ.
Write that down!
Anybody with a modicum of spiritual discernment should not have to be educated on that fact.

Satan is not all knowing & did not know all things about Jesus's nature before the wilderness encounter.


Jhn 14:30
...... the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

 

[Hopeful 2]

yes the darkness is our sin nature.
But I did stop short of specifying that although we retain a sin nature the description of it as darkness is more detailed in the fact that as long as we move forward to the Light the darkness in us is fading with each day.
In other words the instances that we actually do sin should become less and less as we move toward the light .
I we do not find ourselves sinning less and less with the passage of time then we need to examine ourselves.

You can do away with the darkness, totally, by being reborn from the seed of the One who has no darkness.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You can do away with the darkness, totally, by being reborn from the seed of the One who has no darkness.

There is no darkness in Him at all .
No person in their corrupt body can say that.
We will only be exactly like Him when we see His face, when we are absent from these corrupt bodies.
The difference between a Christain a non-Christian is that the Christian has been made aware of the darkness and is repulsed by it .
Getting back to my prior point that whatever repulses you, you will not want to do.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is no darkness in Him at all .
No person in their corrupt body can say that.

Where do you get "corrupt body" from ?
Do you mean sinful ?
Or just gradual failing over the years ?
Those reborn of God, have a body gendered from the seed of God, and there is no corruption in it.
The skin and bones are just along for the ride, and can't commit sin.

We will only be exactly like Him when we see His face, when we are absent from these corrupt bodies.

We can be exactly like Jesus was in His body of skin and bones.

The difference between a Christain a non-Christian is that the Christian has been made aware of the darkness and is repulsed by it .
Getting back to my prior point that whatever repulses you, you will not want to do.

So, thankfully, Christians won't commit sin !

 

[Consecrated Life]

There is no darkness in Him at all .
No person in their corrupt body can say that.
We will only be exactly like Him when we see His face, when we are absent from these corrupt bodies.
The difference between a Christain a non-Christian is that the Christian has been made aware of the darkness and is repulsed by it .
Getting back to my prior point that whatever repulses you, you will not want to do.

Where do you get "corrupt body" from ?
Do you mean sinful ?
Or just gradual failing over the years ?
Those reborn of God, have a body gendered from the seed of God, and there is no corruption in it.
The skin and bones are just along for the ride, and can't commit sin.

We can be exactly like Jesus was in His body of skin and bones.

So, thankfully, Christians won't commit sin !

It is obvious we disagree as to whether or not our sin nature remains in our flesh until the day we depart these bodies & that we become acutely & sometimes painfully aware of this fact post-salvation in a way that we never were pre-salvation.
In this regard I am fully satisfied & confident to share the belief that the author of Amazing Grace also had & held close to his heart until the day he died .
He also believing it to be scriptural :

At the age of 82, Newton said, "My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner — and that Christ is a great Savior!"

 

[Hopeful 2]

It is obvious we disagree as to whether or not our sin nature remains in our flesh until the day we depart these bodies & that we become acutely & sometimes painfully aware of this fact post-salvation in a way that we never were pre-salvation.
In this regard I am fully satisfied & confident to share the belief that the author of Amazing Grace also had & held close to his heart until the day he died .
He also believing it to be scriptural :

At the age of 82, Newton said, "My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner — and that Christ is a great Savior!"

If he was still a great sinner at 82, it manifests his lack of repentance from sin and failure to be reborn of God's perfect seed.
God will not reside in a polluted "temple".

 

[Consecrated Life]

If he was still a great sinner at 82, it manifests his lack of repentance from sin and failure to be reborn of God's perfect seed.
God will not reside in a polluted "temple".

You must then believe Newton's Hymn "Amazing Grace" to a product of Satan's polluted spirit rather than the Holy Spirit ?
It has to have come from one or the other .

 

[Hopeful 2]

You must then believe Newton's Hymn "Amazing Grace" to a product of Satan's polluted spirit rather than the Holy Spirit ?
It has to have come from one or the other .

If that spirit, or that song, had produced a faithful man, it would be easy to tell from whence it came.
But what ever years he had after his song, produced only a man who was lamenting his disobedience to God.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You must then believe Newton's Hymn "Amazing Grace" to a product of Satan's polluted spirit rather than the Holy Spirit ?
It has to have come from one or the other .

If that spirit, or that song, had produced a faithful man, it would be easy to tell from whence it came.
But what ever years he had after his song, produced only a man who was lamenting his disobedience to God.

You forgot to offer me my choice dressing with that word salad you served up.
Look , I'll make it even less complicated for you .
A simple yes or no will make clear your belief which spirit was behind the writing of " Amazing Grace"

Do you believe it was the ungodly "polluted spirit" that wrote "Amazing Grace" ?
That's a yes or no ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

You forgot to offer me my choice dressing with that word salad you served up.
Look , I'll make it even less complicated for you .
A simple yes or no will make clear your belief which spirit was behind the writing of " Amazing Grace"

Do you believe it was the ungodly "polluted spirit" that wrote "Amazing Grace" ?
That's a yes or no ?

An unrepentant man wrote it.

 

[Consecrated Life]

An unrepentant man wrote it.

Much has been written over the years about John Newton, the author of Amazing Grace , entire books written even, by many well known & renowned Christian evangelists ,pastors, writers.
You are the only person I have ever heard or read call him unrepentant.
Can you name any other prominent Christian you have ever heard call him " unrepentant" ?
Or are you the first as far as you know ?

At the age of 82, Newton said, "My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner — and that Christ is a great Savior!"

 

[Josef]

An unrepentant man wrote it.

Hey All,
Do you know the story of how John Newton came to write Amazing Grace?
You would not call him unrepentant if you did know.

This is from the Library of Congress

The Creation of Amazing Grace

Arguably the best-known Christian hymn is "Amazing Grace." Its text, a poem penned in 1772 by John Newton, describes the joy and peace of a soul uplifted from despair to salvation through the gift of grace. Newton's words are also a vivid autobiographical commentary on how he was spared from both physical and spiritual ruin. It relates the happy ending of the tale of a defiant man who manages again and again to escape danger, disease, abuse, and death, only to revert to "struggles between sin and conscience." [ 1 ]

Newton was born in 1725 in Wapping, a London suburb that thrived on shipping and sea trade. His father, a merchant ship captain, was often away on sea voyages that typically lasted two to three years. During one of these absences, Newton's mother succumbed to tuberculosis, leaving him in the temporary care of her friends, the Catlett family in Kent. His father remarried and Newton was placed in boarding school. He stayed in close contact with the Catletts, however, primarily because of their daughter, Mary, whom he eventually wed. Mary was the cornerstone of Newton's existence. No matter what befell him, his goal always was to return to her.

In spite of the powerful message of "Amazing Grace," Newton's religious beliefs initially lacked conviction. Raised far afield of the prevailing Anglican traditions, Newton's youth was marked by religious confusion and, as he later confirmed, a lack of moral self-control and discipline. His father was educated as a Catholic by Jesuits in Spain and his mother was a so-called Nonconformist Christian who rejected the liturgy-based worship of the Church of England.

Nevertheless, Newton's life, rife with the "dangers, toils and snares" at which his text hints, repeatedly brought him face-to-face with the notion that he had been miraculously spared. On one occasion, he was thrown from a horse, narrowly missing impalement on a row of sharp stakes. Another time, he arrived too late to board a tender that was carrying his companions to tour a warship; as he watched from the shore, the vessel overturned, drowning all its passengers. Years later, on a hunting expedition in Africa on a moonless night, he and his companions got lost in a swamp. Just when they had resigned themselves to death, the moon appeared and they were able to return to safety. Such near-death were commonplace in Newton's life.

Yet no matter how many times he was rescued, Newton relapsed into his old habits, continuing to defy his religious destiny and attempting to dissuade others from their beliefs. Of all of the sins to which he later confessed, his habit of chipping away at the faith of others remained heaviest on his heart.

In 1744 Newton was press-ganged--taken by force into service in the Royal Navy. He was disgraced, relieved of his post, and traded for another man from a passing merchant ship, a slave vessel.

Beginning his career in slave trading, Newton soon became tempted by its profits. Merchants believed that trafficking in human trade was justified since slavery was permitted in the Bible as long as slaves were treated with dignity and kindness. [ 2 ] That Newton engaged in the slave trade in such a manner was demonstrated by the willingness of slaves to secretly carry his letters to port to send to Mary.

Despite a promising start with a slaver off the coast of Sierra Leone, Newton once again found himself in tough straits. Felled by malaria, he was at the mercy of the slaver's native mistress, whose abuse reduced him to the condition of the "wretch" he later described in "Amazing Grace." He recovered, however, but was soon to face another trial during which he was strengthened and inspired by Thomas à Kempis' Imitation of Christ.

Newton was aboard ship one night when a violent storm broke out. Moments after he left the deck, the crewman who had taken his place was swept overboard. Although he manned the vessel for the remainder of the tempest, he later commented that, throughout the tumult, he realized his helplessness and concluded that only the grace of God could save him. Prodded by what he had read in Kempis, Newton took the first--albeit small--step toward accepting religion. In the words of his hymn, this incident marked "the hour I first believed."

Upon his safe return home in the late 1740s, Newton immediately wrote to the Catlett family to plead his case for Mary's hand, although he could offer her no financial security. When Mary herself replied that she would consider his suit, he returned to slaving to better his fortunes, this time on a ship full of slaves bound across the Atlantic to Charleston, South Carolina.

Newton wed Mary Cartlett in 1750. A changed man, he accepted the helm of a ship bound for Africa. This time, he encouraged the sailors under his charge to prayer rather than taunt them for their beliefs. He also began to ensure that every member of his crew treated their human cargo with gentleness and concern. However, it would be another 40 years until Newton openly challenged the trafficking of slaves.

Some three years after his marriage, Newton suffered a stroke that prevented him from returning to sea; in time, he interpreted this as another step in his spiritual voyage. He assumed a post in the Customs Office in the port of Liverpool and began to explore Christianity more fully. As Newton attempted to experience all the various expressions of Christianity, it became clear that he was being called to the ministry.

Since Newton lacked a university degree, he could not be ordained through normal channels. However, the landlord of the parish at Olney was so impressed with the letters Newton had written about his conversion that he offered the church to Newton; he was ordained in June 1764.

In Olney, the new curate met the poet William Cowper, also a newly-born Christian. Their friendship led to a spiritual collaboration that completed the inspiration for "Amazing Grace," the poem Newton most likely penned around Christmas of 1772. Some 60 years later in America, the text was set to the hymn tune, "New Britain," to which it has been sung ever since.

The Former Slaver against Slavery
Even though many of England's great shipping cities prospered from the slave trade, social critics began to speak out against the practice by the mid-18th century. By the 1780s, the powerful voice of William Wilberforce (pictured to the right) was added to this chorus.

Wilberforce, a Member of Parliament, was the nephew of one of Newton's London friends. Inspired by the former slave trader, and paralleling Newton's own conversion, Wilberforce began to question his role in life. Although Newton, then a lowly Olney curate, was convinced that Wilberforce was just another wealthy politician, he persuaded him to crusade for change and use his station in life and his powerful friends (including Prime Minister Pitt) to seek reform. One of the chief topics for such advocacy was abolition. In fact, Wilberforce wrote in his journal on October 28, 1787, that one of the two goals that had been set before him was "the suppression of the Slave Trade."

Newton joined in the fight for the abolition of slavery by publishing the essay "Thoughts upon the African Slave Trade." Because Christians still felt that slavery was justified in the Bible, Newton and Wilberforce wisely avoided building their protests on a religious platform. Instead, they condemned the practice as an inhumane treatment of their fellow men and women. Newton, speaking strongly from his own experiences, also proposed that the captors were in turn brutalized by their callous treatment of others and cited offences including torture, rape, and murder. Newton's friend, the poet William Cowper, joined their fight by writing pro-abolition poems and ballads.

In 1789 Wilberforce introduced a "Bill for the Abolition of Slavery" in Parliament. The bill faced opposition in both Houses, but the forces against enactment became weaker each time it came up for a vote. The bill finally was passed by the House of Commons in 1804 and by the House of Lords in 1807 after which King George III declared it law.

There is no direct link between "Amazing Grace" and the abolition of slavery in Britain. Nonetheless, the hymn was written by a man who was moved to speak out against something from which he had once profited. In an essay Newton said: "I hope it will always be a subject of humiliating reflection to me . . . that I was once an active instrument in a business at which my heart now shudders." Thus, it seems fitting that his hymn has become for so many--including those fighting for Civil Rights--an anthem against all forms of social injustice.


1. Information for this essay was drawn in great part from Steve Turner's book "Amazing Grace: The Story of America's Most Beloved Song" (New York: HarperCollins, 2002). We are grateful to the author for allowing us to quote his book liberally. [back to text]

2. As Turner notes, the Quakers and Anabaptists were the only Christians to speak out against slavery (p. 50). [back to text]

Please educate yourself before you malign others Hopeful 2. You will save yourself some embarrassment.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

Much has been written over the years about John Newton, the author of Amazing Grace , entire books written even, by many well known & renowned Christian evangelists ,pastors, writers.
You are the only person I have ever heard or read call him unrepentant.

Who am I to disagree with his own words ?
Why do you disagree with him ?

Can you name any other prominent Christian you have ever heard call him " unrepentant" ?
Or are you the first as far as you know ?

I have no idea if anyone else disagrees with Newton's own obituary.

At the age of 82, Newton said, "My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner — and that Christ is a great Savior!"

It seems he is in agreement with me.
If a man is a sinner, he is unrepentant.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Do you know the story of how John Newton came to write Amazing Grace?
You would not call him unrepentant if you did know.

This is from the Library of Congress

The Creation of Amazing Grace

Arguably the best-known Christian hymn is "Amazing Grace." Its text, a poem penned in 1772 by John Newton, describes the joy and peace of a soul uplifted from despair to salvation through the gift of grace. Newton's words are also a vivid autobiographical commentary on how he was spared from both physical and spiritual ruin. It relates the happy ending of the tale of a defiant man who manages again and again to escape danger, disease, abuse, and death, only to revert to "struggles between sin and conscience." [ 1 ]

Newton was born in 1725 in Wapping, a London suburb that thrived on shipping and sea trade. His father, a merchant ship captain, was often away on sea voyages that typically lasted two to three years. During one of these absences, Newton's mother succumbed to tuberculosis, leaving him in the temporary care of her friends, the Catlett family in Kent. His father remarried and Newton was placed in boarding school. He stayed in close contact with the Catletts, however, primarily because of their daughter, Mary, whom he eventually wed. Mary was the cornerstone of Newton's existence. No matter what befell him, his goal always was to return to her.

In spite of the powerful message of "Amazing Grace," Newton's religious beliefs initially lacked conviction. Raised far afield of the prevailing Anglican traditions, Newton's youth was marked by religious confusion and, as he later confirmed, a lack of moral self-control and discipline. His father was educated as a Catholic by Jesuits in Spain and his mother was a so-called Nonconformist Christian who rejected the liturgy-based worship of the Church of England.

Nevertheless, Newton's life, rife with the "dangers, toils and snares" at which his text hints, repeatedly brought him face-to-face with the notion that he had been miraculously spared. On one occasion, he was thrown from a horse, narrowly missing impalement on a row of sharp stakes. Another time, he arrived too late to board a tender that was carrying his companions to tour a warship; as he watched from the shore, the vessel overturned, drowning all its passengers. Years later, on a hunting expedition in Africa on a moonless night, he and his companions got lost in a swamp. Just when they had resigned themselves to death, the moon appeared and they were able to return to safety. Such near-death were commonplace in Newton's life.

Yet no matter how many times he was rescued, Newton relapsed into his old habits, continuing to defy his religious destiny and attempting to dissuade others from their beliefs. Of all of the sins to which he later confessed, his habit of chipping away at the faith of others remained heaviest on his heart.

In 1744 Newton was press-ganged--taken by force into service in the Royal Navy. He was disgraced, relieved of his post, and traded for another man from a passing merchant ship, a slave vessel.

Beginning his career in slave trading, Newton soon became tempted by its profits. Merchants believed that trafficking in human trade was justified since slavery was permitted in the Bible as long as slaves were treated with dignity and kindness. [ 2 ] That Newton engaged in the slave trade in such a manner was demonstrated by the willingness of slaves to secretly carry his letters to port to send to Mary.

Despite a promising start with a slaver off the coast of Sierra Leone, Newton once again found himself in tough straits. Felled by malaria, he was at the mercy of the slaver's native mistress, whose abuse reduced him to the condition of the "wretch" he later described in "Amazing Grace." He recovered, however, but was soon to face another trial during which he was strengthened and inspired by Thomas à Kempis' Imitation of Christ.

Newton was aboard ship one night when a violent storm broke out. Moments after he left the deck, the crewman who had taken his place was swept overboard. Although he manned the vessel for the remainder of the tempest, he later commented that, throughout the tumult, he realized his helplessness and concluded that only the grace of God could save him. Prodded by what he had read in Kempis, Newton took the first--albeit small--step toward accepting religion. In the words of his hymn, this incident marked "the hour I first believed."

Upon his safe return home in the late 1740s, Newton immediately wrote to the Catlett family to plead his case for Mary's hand, although he could offer her no financial security. When Mary herself replied that she would consider his suit, he returned to slaving to better his fortunes, this time on a ship full of slaves bound across the Atlantic to Charleston, South Carolina.

Newton wed Mary Cartlett in 1750. A changed man, he accepted the helm of a ship bound for Africa. This time, he encouraged the sailors under his charge to prayer rather than taunt them for their beliefs. He also began to ensure that every member of his crew treated their human cargo with gentleness and concern. However, it would be another 40 years until Newton openly challenged the trafficking of slaves.

Some three years after his marriage, Newton suffered a stroke that prevented him from returning to sea; in time, he interpreted this as another step in his spiritual voyage. He assumed a post in the Customs Office in the port of Liverpool and began to explore Christianity more fully. As Newton attempted to experience all the various expressions of Christianity, it became clear that he was being called to the ministry.

Since Newton lacked a university degree, he could not be ordained through normal channels. However, the landlord of the parish at Olney was so impressed with the letters Newton had written about his conversion that he offered the church to Newton; he was ordained in June 1764.

In Olney, the new curate met the poet William Cowper, also a newly-born Christian. Their friendship led to a spiritual collaboration that completed the inspiration for "Amazing Grace," the poem Newton most likely penned around Christmas of 1772. Some 60 years later in America, the text was set to the hymn tune, "New Britain," to which it has been sung ever since.

The Former Slaver against Slavery
Even though many of England's great shipping cities prospered from the slave trade, social critics began to speak out against the practice by the mid-18th century. By the 1780s, the powerful voice of William Wilberforce (pictured to the right) was added to this chorus.

Wilberforce, a Member of Parliament, was the nephew of one of Newton's London friends. Inspired by the former slave trader, and paralleling Newton's own conversion, Wilberforce began to question his role in life. Although Newton, then a lowly Olney curate, was convinced that Wilberforce was just another wealthy politician, he persuaded him to crusade for change and use his station in life and his powerful friends (including Prime Minister Pitt) to seek reform. One of the chief topics for such advocacy was abolition. In fact, Wilberforce wrote in his journal on October 28, 1787, that one of the two goals that had been set before him was "the suppression of the Slave Trade."

Newton joined in the fight for the abolition of slavery by publishing the essay "Thoughts upon the African Slave Trade." Because Christians still felt that slavery was justified in the Bible, Newton and Wilberforce wisely avoided building their protests on a religious platform. Instead, they condemned the practice as an inhumane treatment of their fellow men and women. Newton, speaking strongly from his own experiences, also proposed that the captors were in turn brutalized by their callous treatment of others and cited offences including torture, rape, and murder. Newton's friend, the poet William Cowper, joined their fight by writing pro-abolition poems and ballads.

In 1789 Wilberforce introduced a "Bill for the Abolition of Slavery" in Parliament. The bill faced opposition in both Houses, but the forces against enactment became weaker each time it came up for a vote. The bill finally was passed by the House of Commons in 1804 and by the House of Lords in 1807 after which King George III declared it law.

There is no direct link between "Amazing Grace" and the abolition of slavery in Britain. Nonetheless, the hymn was written by a man who was moved to speak out against something from which he had once profited. In an essay Newton said: "I hope it will always be a subject of humiliating reflection to me . . . that I was once an active instrument in a business at which my heart now shudders." Thus, it seems fitting that his hymn has become for so many--including those fighting for Civil Rights--an anthem against all forms of social injustice.


1. Information for this essay was drawn in great part from Steve Turner's book "Amazing Grace: The Story of America's Most Beloved Song" (New York: HarperCollins, 2002). We are grateful to the author for allowing us to quote his book liberally. [back to text]

2. As Turner notes, the Quakers and Anabaptists were the only Christians to speak out against slavery (p. 50). [back to text]

Please educate yourself before you malign others Hopeful 2. You will save yourself some embarrassment.

Who am I to disagree with Newton's own words ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

I have no idea if anyone else disagrees with Newton's own obituary.

It seems he is in agreement with me.
If a man is a sinner, he is unrepentant.

For me I'll stand with Paul and with John Newton :
1Ti 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

At the age of 82, Newton said, "My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: that I am a great sinner — and that Christ is a great Savior!"

As for yourself , you have said you can name no Christian living or dead who thinks what you think.
Which comes as no surprise to me by the way