Was Christ capable of Sin?

[WIP]

If "we" do these things regularly, "we" are without love.

Pretty much.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I never cease to be amazed by the popular ongoing debates among Christianity.

Some topics/concepts seem so obvious, but I realize the Truth of Scripture is not obvious to all as many do not have Spiritual Discernment. The notion that Christ was incapable of sin floors me. When we understand the true magnitude of the Gospels, and what Christ (God) accomplished in the flesh, it becomes impossible to consider that Jesus may have been incapable of sin.

Jesus was incapable TO sin, but capable OF sin. If not, how did he take all sins of mankind onto himself? This is called substitutionary atonement, that Christ died for OUR sins. "The messiah will be cut off, but not for himself."

 

[Hopeful 2]

Pretty much.

How about...If we do these things at all, we are without love. ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Agreed. Jesus could not sin because His divine nature is sovereign; it controls ALL THINGS including the human nature of Christ.

Jesus' human nature did not exist till 2000 years ago. If Jesus' human nature could act independently of His divine nature then it would be impossible to the divine nature to be ALL KNOWING of those future events because even God cannot know what something will do in the future before said entity existed.

(Because the most fundamental maxim of all reason, and all science, and all philosophy is the maxim, "ex nihilo nihil fit" out of nothing, nothing comes.)

What's your opinion on "substitutionary atonement"? This theology suggests that Jesus took over the sins of the world as John the baptist declared by becoming (or absorning) all sins of mankind on the cross, and because of that, he died on the cross, for "the wages of sin is death", but in His case, not his own sins, but yours and mine, therefore "the Messiah will be cut off but not for himself." Substitutionary atonement is taught in the hymn the Power of the Cross, originally by Kirstyn Getty, the chorus reads:

'Tis the power of the cross
Christ became sin for us
Took the blame
Bore the wrath
We stand forgiven at the cross.

If this is true, though, then I'm afraid the answer to the OP's question is yes. This is a paradox though, that He as the sacrificial lamb must be sinless as much as a regular sacrificial lamb must be spotless, and yet He died as a sin offering, a payment for our ransom.

 

[Fastfredy0]

What's your opinion on "substitutionary atonement"?

I read the book James Boyce Systematic Theology – The Atonement of Christ (theories and pros and cons) and came to the conclusion that each theory had questionable assertions. At that point I decided that the theories of Atonement were not solutions but intelligent guesses so I put those idea aside for the most part.

When I come upon questions like this I think of the attributes of God and whether I can use them to solve (at least an intelligent guess) the question.
God is immutable, God knows all things ... therefore He has always known all things and knew in His humiliation (taking on human attributes) that the human nature of the body that he occupied would not fail God's purpose. Whatever you see on earth (all history) is according to God's purpose/plan for His glory and pleasure. God does not take pleasure or glory from God's failure because He determines all things (He always gets His way) and thus cannot fail. We CANNOT influence God (Job 35:7-8)

Aside: Wow, you live in Taiwan. News media here makes it sound like China may invade in the next 10 years.

 

[port4]

Christ was capable of sin , but there was no chance he would sin . This was known before his birth .

The Bible is the Word of God. It states that Jesus did not sin. If you read the Old Testament you will understand why the sacrifice for our sin, Jesus, had to be spotless. He was 100% God and 100% man. If he had been a sinner nothing on the cross would have been accomplished. We would all be going to hell.

 

[hawkman]

The Bible is the Word of God.

A Christian bible is the translated Word of God .

It states that Jesus did not sin.

Check .

If you read the Old Testament you will understand why the sacrifice for our sin, Jesus, had to be spotless.

Why yes , that is why I said what I said below in my post .

there was no chance he would sin . This was known before his birth .

If you understood the OT prophecy you would have known the Christ would not sin .

He was 100% God and 100% man.

Question for you , does God ever get hungry or tired ?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Question for you , does God ever get hungry or tired ?

Yes and No. His divine nature is never hungry and cannot die. His human nature can get hungry and die. God is spirit which means he has not material characters for if he did He could not be omnipresent. But He is a Spirit that is capable of occupying human form and while doing so (which is does from 2000 years ago and will continue to do so forever) that human form is called God though some of its characteristics like being hungry or tired contradict His divine essence. Like putting a hand into a puppet; the physical puppet is limited by the nature of a puppet yet it has extraordinary attributes because a hand operates it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I read the book James Boyce Systematic Theology – The Atonement of Christ (theories and pros and cons) and came to the conclusion that each theory had questionable assertions. At that point I decided that the theories of Atonement were not solutions but intelligent guesses so I put those idea aside for the most part.

This is not an intelligent guess, but rather a conclusion of one key verse where Jesus prophesied to Nicodemus that the Son of Man must be lifted up like Moses lifted up the (bronze) serpent in the desert, that's a direct reference of a story in Numbers, where God sent "fiery serpents" to sting disobedient Israeilites, then he ordered Moses to built a brozen serpent and hang it on a pole, those who were stricken may go to the serpent and gaze at it, and they'll be healed. This serpent is the symbol of sin and avatar of Satan, Jesus was comparing himself with it, he must become sin and be crucified on the cross to pay for our sins.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I read the book James Boyce Systematic Theology – The Atonement of Christ (theories and pros and cons) and came to the conclusion that each theory had questionable assertions. At that point I decided that the theories of Atonement were not solutions but intelligent guesses so I put those idea aside for the most part.

This is not an intelligent guess, but rather a conclusion of one key verse where Jesus prophesied to Nicodemus that the Son of Man must be lifted up like Moses lifted up the (bronze) serpent in the desert, that's a direct reference of a story in Numbers, where God sent "fiery serpents" to sting disobedient Israeilites, then he ordered Moses to built a brozen serpent and hang it on a pole, those who were stricken may go to the serpent and gaze at it, and they'll be healed. This serpent is the symbol of sin and avatar of Satan, Jesus was comparing himself with it, he must become sin and be crucified on the cross to pay for our sins.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Aside: Wow, you live in Taiwan. News media here makes it sound like China may invade in the next 10 years.

Try one year. This year.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Try one year. This year.

wow ... what is your probability on that in your opinion? We've heard rumors for several years.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

wow ... what is your probability on that in your opinion? We've heard rumors for several years.

Why wait for several years, when China is broke with sky high employment rate, and the US is at the brink of a civil war? Also, it's not just Taiwan, you've got full blown wars in Ukrain and the middle east, and Venezuela's potential invasion in Gueyana, US military is already stretched thin, and the democrats' top priority will be rigging election over international affiars, this is once in a lifetime opportunity to make a move, wait for a few years, all they have would be grandmas and grandpas, considering their fast aging population.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

PS: Unemployment rate, man. Sorry for the typo.

 

[hawkman]

Yes and No. His divine nature is never hungry and cannot die. His human nature can get hungry and die. God is spirit which means he has not material characters for if he did He could not be omnipresent. But He is a Spirit that is capable of occupying human form and while doing so (which is does from 2000 years ago and will continue to do so forever) that human form is called God though some of its characteristics like being hungry or tired contradict His divine essence. Like putting a hand into a puppet; the physical puppet is limited by the nature of a puppet yet it has extraordinary attributes because a hand operates it.

Hmmm , are you saying while Jesus walked the earth before his death and resurrection His human nature was on the front burner while His divine nature was on the back burner ? You use a stove don't you Fastfredy0 ? At least this is the way it appeared to those that saw Jesus walk the earth .

Good post from you .

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hmmm , are you saying while Jesus walked the earth before his death and resurrection His human nature was on the front burner while His divine nature was on the back burner ? You use a stove don't you @Fastfredy0 ? At least this is the way it appeared to those that saw Jesus walk the earth .

The hypostatic union is a bit of a mystery to everyone. I'm good with an analogy like:

• God is the hand operating a human puppet.
• God put on a suit of human flesh
• Christ's human nature is a computer hooked up to the internet the divine nature and can assess some information but the human nature's hard drive has limited space.

All analogies fail at some point.

 

[F345T]

Hey All,
I revisited the OP and made comments under each section. I know we are late into the thread. But it took me awhile to think about it and organize my thoughts.

"Some topics/concepts seem so obvious, but I realize the Truth of Scripture is not obvious to all as many do not have Spiritual Discernment. The notion that Christ was incapable of sin floors me. When we understand the true magnitude of the Gospels, and what Christ (God) accomplished in the flesh, it becomes impossible to consider that Jesus may have been incapable of sin."
Quote from F345T

No it is not.
The Bible expressly declares that Jesus was sinless. The writer of Hebrews tells us that He was "holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners" (Heb. 7:26, NASB). One cannot be separate yet still be the same. The apostle Paul boldly asserts that He "knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21) It is His God nature that makes Him separate.

"The entire point of the accomplishments of Christ, and His overcoming sinful flesh and defeating death, all rests upon the foundation of His vulnerability and weakness living as a mortal man in a flesh body. Hebrews tells us that He lowered and humbled Himself in order to take on a flesh body and to become obedient. None of that is possible, nor makes any sense at all, if Christ was incapable of sinning." Quote from F345T

How is it not possible for God to keep God's Word? The dual nature of Jesus (100% God and 100% man) would not allow sin. We cannot separate the two natures.

"It is the devil's style to come down from upon high and perform miracles and gain a following all while being incapable of failure. That is the polar opposite of what God Almighty would do. God humbled Himself to a degree that we cannot imagine, entered into sinful, fallible, vulnerable flesh and overcame every single temptation and desire common to man, and even some that would only apply to God, and annihilated the curse of original sin, blazing a permanent path for all men to follow who would ever come to love and desire God. To claim that Jesus was incapable of failure is to rob Him of all that He accomplished, all that He sacrificed and all the love that He poured out for fallen man." Quote from F345T

Satan uses guile and deceit to accomplish his evil, not miracles. Satan is a created being. Satan is also not incapable of failure. Every believer is proof that Satan can and does fail.
To claim that Jesus was incapable of failure is to acknowledge His God nature. God is not robbed of anything by what you or I might say.

"It is literally offensive to those who understand the profound nature of God's humility to even consider that He did not put Himself into a position where He could fall short. The very glory of God Almighty in the flesh rests upon the accomplishment and sacrifice of His willingness to subject Himself to such misery and abuse all for the sake of His beloved people. If He were not able to fail, then He didn't give up anything at all and He was never in any danger of any kind." Quote from F345T

It is impossible for God to sin. Therefore Jesus could not"fall short." Do you believe Jesus didn't give up anything to become a human so He could die for us.? Think of what he had to endure during the crucifixion. All the time, at any time, Jesus could have called twelve legions of angels to rescue Him. To have that kind of power, and not use it: Jesus gave up plenty.

If Jesus' glorified body is now incapable of sin, then what was its condition prior to His death and sacrifice on the Cross? We can see through the Scriptures that we will be transformed into sinless glorified bodies only after we have accomplished our life of endurance and following Christ's ways. Thirty three years is not a very long life in man's experience, but to live that long completely without the slightest sin, even accidentally, is an absolute miracle and a wonder that only Christ could accomplish in the flesh - it is also one of many proofs of Jesus being God. Quote from F345T

You are errently comparing your life to Christ's life. Jesus does not need transformation as you or I do. The only transformation after the resurrection of Jesus was in His humanity. Actually, I take that back. There was a transformation on the cross. When Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world, He was forsaken by the father. We cannot leave that out.
The gospel writers recorded the observable changes in His humanity. After the resurrection could mask His identity, or just appear in their midst.
But as God, Jesus was/is without sin. The transformation you are referring to, for us, happeds after the last trump; after the dead are raised incorruptible.
You cannot help yourself. Every once in a while you speak what you really know.

" . . . only Christ could accomplish in the flesh . . . "

Why was it, " . . . an absolute miracle and a wonder that only Christ could accomplish in the flesh . . . "?
Because Jesus had/has a dual nature that was/is fully integrated.

We steal God's glory when we claim that He wasn't capable of failure. That is a prideful show that only the devil would put on to bask in his great power and might. Everything that Jesus did was a testament to purity, honesty, selflessness, righteousness and perseverance. All of those qualities are stripped of Christ when we say that He had no ability to have sinned at any given moment of temptation. Quote from F345T
How does one steel from One who is infinite? Whatever is God's, He has. Whatever you have comes from God. He allows us to have. You cannot steel from God.

Jesus is still God. He humbled Himself when He limited His glory by becoming flesh and blood. Saying Jesus had/has no ability to sin acknowledges His Godliness. A person has to ignore His Godliness to say He could sin.

The devil would not have tried so hard to tempt Christ in the wilderness, nor would he have specially tailored the temptations to Christ's desires, if Christ was incapable of sinning. Unlike us, Christ was tempted to turn a stone into bread at a moment of extreme hunger and fatigue. None of that would have taken place if Christ wasn't truly and sincerely in the thick of the battle to fight off the temptation to sin. Quote from F345T

Of course Satan would have tried hard. he knows what is going to happen to him. Enticing Jesus to sin would mean victory for Satan. Jesus was weekend by His fast. Typical Satan, he attacks our weak points. Satan was attacking Jesus' humanity. Satan knew Jesus' God nature would not sin. he also assumed a non-integration of natures.

Christ showed us exactly how we are to live and fight against sin in our lives and we are to look to our Champion in order to remember His great accomplishments and find the strength to do so ourselves. There is no rational possibility that He could have been immune to sin in the flesh. If that had been the case, there would have been no purpose whatsoever to incarnate and He would never have realized any of His glorious accomplishments for all mankind. Quote from F345T

If we have to fight against sin, it means we are susseptable to sin. We have a sin nature. Jesus did not. Jesus was born into humanity through Mary. He retained His God nature through the Holy Spirit. That is what makes Jesus unique in all of humanity. Again, Satan does not attack Jesus' God nature. His humanity was weak from starvation. Satan attacks Jesus where He was vulnerable. It was still a valid temptation because Jesus was on the verge of starving to death. (We know this because after it was over angels came and ministered to Him.) How easy would it have been, for God the man, to turn stones into bread to keep His humanity from starvation. Before the resurrection, with the possible exception of a teachable moment, like walking on the water, Jesus never used His God nature to make His human life easier than yours or my lives. He could have. He is God. So He did not. The temptations were not done to prove that Jesus could have sinned. The temptations were allowed to prove Jesus was God; and thus worthy to be a pure and Holy sacrifice. Amen!

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

The vast majority of objections in this thread to the OP are the same objections written different ways, and by alternate user names. Consecrated Life had a post #21 that they deleted immediately before I posted this.

The reason that post and this one of Josef 's are so similar is because they are the same person.

Post #21 that is now very obviously missing from this thread was absolutely ridiculous in its claims that satan had no awareness of who Christ was as the Bible clearly states that the lower demons knew exactly who He was and cried out loud about it - to which they were told by Christ to be silent.

Faulty argument.

It was also said that satan left Jesus alone after tempting Him because satan realized He couldn't be tempted at all. Another silly argument as Luke 4:13 tells us clearly that he only left Him until a more opportune time. Just exactly as he operates with us. We are told to resist the devil and he will flee, but we know that he certainly doesn't flee forever. He always returns when we are vulnerable - just exactly as he operated with Jesus BECAUSE Jesus WAS vulnerable to sin.

 

[F345T]

Here's what it all comes down to. Is everybody reading along? All one or two of you, under many user names?

If Jesus did not fully experience the difficulty of sin temptation, He could not be our High Priest. PERIOD.

We all know full well that He IS our High Priest BECAUSE He fully experienced the temptations to sin in the flesh. He "strived against sin to the point of blood" just like Heb. 12:4 tells us that He did.

None of us have yet resisted sin to the point of shedding our blood like Jesus did, ... BUT JESUS DID!!!!

Jesus resisted, and "strived against", the very human temptation to sin to the point that He died on the Cross without having EVER ONCE given in to that temptation.

Every other argument against Christ's peccability is 100% faulty. And don't anyone make the ridiculous claim that this is only MY words. It is the Bible that has made this VERY CLEAR.

 

[Free]

The vast majority of objections in this thread to the OP are the same objections written different ways, and by alternate user names. Consecrated Life had a post #21 that they deleted immediately before I posted this.

The reason that post and this one of Josef 's are so similar is because they are the same person.

Post #21 that is now very obviously missing from this thread was absolutely ridiculous in its claims that satan had no awareness of who Christ was as the Bible clearly states that the lower demons knew exactly who He was and cried out loud about it - to which they were told by Christ to be silent.

First, stop making false accusations. The two users are not, and obviously not, the same person. Second, post #21 is exactly where it always has been and has not been deleted.

 

[hawkman]

If Jesus did not fully experience the difficulty of sin temptation, He could not be our High Priest. PERIOD.

We all know full well that He IS our High Priest BECAUSE He fully experienced the temptations to sin in the flesh. He "strived against sin to the point of blood" just like Heb. 12:4 tells us that He did.

None of us have yet resisted sin to the point of shedding our blood like Jesus did, ... BUT JESUS DID!!!!

Jesus resisted, and "strived against", the very human temptation to sin to the point that He died on the Cross without having EVER ONCE given in to that temptation.

Every other argument against Christ's peccability is 100% faulty. And don't anyone make the ridiculous claim that this is only MY words. It is the Bible that has made this VERY CLEAR.

I agree with the above ^^^^^^ .

Here's what it all comes down to. Is everybody reading along? All one or two of you, under many user names?

I do not agree with the part above ^^^^ I bolded . Don't get caught up in a conspiracy where there is none .
We would like to see you to continue to post on this forum .