Was James confused?

[RichardBurger]

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJV

The above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad and to the Gentiles: Greetings. TBM (Taught By Man, [but not in any Bible])

The above is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well.

Which way is correct, the Holy Spirit’s way or man’s way?

 

[francisdesales]

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJV

The above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad and to the Gentiles: Greetings. TBM (Taught By Man, [but not in any Bible])

The above is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well.

Which way is correct, the Holy Spirit’s way or man’s way?

What is your point, Richard? Is this now a thread about various translators, some being wrong?

Regards

 

[mondar]

You are inventing a new set of charecteristics for justification. In both my citations, we are speaking of being "righteous in the eyes of God". Where do we find "men" here? When speaking of salvation, that's all that matters, not the opinions of men. Men don't determine who is saved, God does. Thus, claiming "human requirements" is more smoke and mirrors, which CERTAINLY does not apply to James. Note what he uses as an example: the offering of Isaac. Further exploration of Scriptures will show you are inventing something not there.

Hold on here, I did use the term "human requirements" for faith with reference to Paul's epistles. It is a rather nasty assumption on your part that I was suggesting that faith is generated by the sinful nature of unregenerate men. I am surprised you would think I am saying such a thing.

The human requirement for a quart of milk at the corner grocery store is about $1.50. If I send my chld to the store he has the human requirement for it, but he did not earn it or deserve it, but was given the money by my grace. Nevertheless, it is still the human requirement for the quart of milk. The grocer will only give a person a quart of milk if they have $1.50. Your charges of Pelagianism are mere name calling. In fact, is it not more silly for someone with your theology to call someone with my theology "Pelagian?"

Also, owhere did I suggest that men determine who is saved. Neither did I say that in James men determine who is saved. I did say that the words "show me" appear in verse 18. I did not say who the "me" was in the terms "show me." I merely stated the fact of the existence of the words in verse 18. I also have requested that you exegetically demonstrate the connection of James 2:18 to the context. I am still waiting for some positive statement on your part concerning verse 18.

Now, if you turn your bible to Genesis 22, you'll find that there was no human audience when Abraham was "declared righteous".

Not only this, but God never declared Abraham righteous in Genesis 22, but he did it in Genesis 15:6.

The statement in James 2:21 does not refer to the justificaton of Abraham's salvation, but rather it is the claim of verse 14 and 18 (I have faith) that is justified.

This is the same as in Genesis 12. The contexts are the same, the only difference is that Genesis 12 is the first time Abraham responds, while Genesis 22 is one of many future times Abraham responds.

James does not quote Genesis 12, neither does Genesis 12 refer to justification. Galatians 3:8 calls it the gospel to the Gentiles, but the word justification is not related to Genesis 12.

Now, WHO was a witness to the inner thoughts of Abram when God called him to pick up and move to Palestine? WHO was a witness to the sacrifice of Isaac? God, in both cases. Thus, you invent a false dilineation, your "justification to salvation" .vs your "justification in the eyes of men".

Why then does Moses wait until Genesis 15 to say that Abraham was justified? Why does James never mention Genesis 12. James mentions Genesis 22 as the justification or "fulfillment" of Abrahams declared righteousness in Gensis 15:6.

Nonsense. Genesis 22 has no men clapping and hollering "GOOD GOING, Abraham, we justify you in our eyes". "You da man".

NO! It is GOD HIMSELF who says "NOW I KNOW...". GOD HIMSELF calls Abraham just in Genesis 12 AND Genesis 22. It is your doctrine that forces you to see justification as a one-time event, when clearly, it is not a one-time event. Your dogma does not allow justification as an ongoing process, despite the Scriptures saying that it is.

Justification is not mentioned in Gensis 12 or 22, and only in James 2:21 is the word used with reference to the events in Genesis 22. And in James, because Abraham's works in Genesis 22 function to "show me" your faith, James says that Abraham is justified by WORKS. Otherwise, what do you think James is doing in the context? Do you think verse 18 means nothing to the context? You consistently avoid working with verse 18? Why, does it not fit into your understanding of James 2?

And it is your assertion in whose eyes the works justify in, I made no such comment.

Every time we pass such a test in God's eyes, we are again justified in God's eyes, more just, if you will, as more graces have flown to us from God. God actually SEES US as just, not just pretends we are by legal proclamation.

So? What does this have to do with the context of James 2? It certainly is not an exegetical comment. What verse and phrase are you talking about? Where is God the one who "actually SEES US as just" in James 2. James does not tell us who the "show me" concerns. He is not talking about justification in God or mans sight, that is a red herring and it is not the point James is making. James simply says that by works is a man just in "says he has faith" (see verse 14).

Francis, your off on a dog trail that is unrelated to the context and main question of James 2.

Let me chart it like this...
James ---- works leads to justification of the claim "I have faith."
Paul ----- Faith leads to justification before the divine judge, God.

Again, you ignore my citation, that says "and GOD declared them righteous". Just because James speaks about showing one's faith by works does NOT mean he is awaiting the approval of men!!! WRONG, my friend. He knows he is just in God's eyes already, he doesn't need man's approval.

The whole thing of mans approval is getting old. What text are you referring to above... Genesis 15:6? If that is the text you are referring to, I have certainly made numerous references.

Justification is by God in both chronologies. James is merely speaking of manifesting the gift already given, our justification from GOD.

Again, you refuse to see the semantic range of the word "justify."

Lets look at a few other contexts and I will demonstrate the impossibility of your assumption. All quotes from ASV.
*** Deu 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, and the judges judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked;
There is an obvious legal context here. The judge, or elders of the city who function as judges are to "justify the righteous." Judges do not send them to heaven, but they pronounce them innocent. The acquit them from a criminal charge. Here the scripture uses the term "justify" not to refer to salvation, but to a earthly courtroom decision.

In your view, if a reference to justification always means saved, then human earthly judges just saved the innocent person in a courtroom case.

***Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to Jehovah.
Again, a possible courtroom setting, but it could be otherwise. If an employer declares an employee innocent of a charge that they cheated, that would apply to this text. Of course the employer is not bringing the evil employee to heaven, but he is justifying the dishonest employee who helped the company by selling flawed merchandise. Not a salvific setting for this verse.

I think there are a few other references to the concept of justification not being related to salvation.

So then, are you working with the context to determine the meaning of the term "justify" in the context of James 2? Or do you assume that the word "justify" refers to salvation?

Again, James is not using the term "justify" in Chapter 2 as a reference to salvation. He uses the term in the sense of verse 18. "show me" your faith. If you can "show me" works, then you claim to faith is justified.

Justification is displayed by our faithful obedience to God, whether one picks up his entire family and moves to Palestine or whether he is about to sacrifice his only child to God. THESE are manifestations of faithful obedience, evidence that God has declared one righteous and just.

Isn't it clear that in both cases, Abraham displayed his faith through an obedient work???

********** Now I suspect you approach the issue with a presupposition. You presuppose that because both James and Paul quote the same text, that this proves you point. You have not even considered that they are quoting the same OT text to establish two different (but no contradictory) points. Why is this so shocking? Are you saying that each verse of scripture has only one application?

You missed the boat while busily making your "presupposition" accusation, blindly ignoring your own - that justification is a one-time event and that's it...

In both cases that I cited from, God declared them righteous, two different events - God declared Abraham righteous, just.

Now, once we are done with this wild goose chase of yours, you will again have to address the fact that Paul and James have different definitions of faith, since they BOTH are speaking of being made just in God's eyes, being saved, justified...

LOL, my "wild goose chase" goes to verse 18. You still refuse to look at verse 18. In doing this you miss the context of the passage and then incorrectly define the term "justify" in verse 21 and later. Verse 21 and the term "justify" needs to be read in light of the context of verses 18 and 14.

You refuse to say anything exegetical about the relationship of verse 18 and verse 21. Say something about verse 18. Don't avoid it, it is there, deal with verse 18. Our conversation will absolutely remain stuck unless you deal with verse 18 and see that the term "justify" in 21 refers to the man in verse 18 who says "show me." How does the man in verse 18 show his faith? Works! and so when you get to verse 21, how does Abraham justify his claim to faith? The faith of Genesis 15? He shows his works n Genesis 22.

Hint, notice no reference in James to Genesis 12!!!!

--- The rest of the post is deleted to avoid more reduncy.

 

[RichardBurger]

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings. NKJV

The above was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

James 1:1
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad and to the Gentiles: Greetings. TBM (Taught By Man, [but not in any Bible])

The above is the same verse re-written, by man, to make it written to the grace church as well.

Which way is correct, the Holy Spirit’s way or man’s way?

What is your point, Richard? Is this now a thread about various translators, some being wrong?

Regards

Are you playing dumb??? The point is obvious.

But let me spell it out to you. Man says the things written in James was written for the Gentile grace church. HOWEVERRRRRRR, James didn't say that.

 

[francisdesales]

Are you playing dumb??? The point is obvious.

But let me spell it out to you. Man says the things written in James was written for the Gentile grace church. HOWEVERRRRRRR, James didn't say that.

I still am not sure of your point. James is part of the inerrant, inspired-by-God Scriptures. They are not teaching two different Gospels, one for Jews and one for Gentiles.

 

[francisdesales]

Hold on here, I did use the term "human requirements" for faith with reference to Paul's epistles. It is a rather nasty assumption on your part that I was suggesting that faith is generated by the sinful nature of unregenerate men. I am surprised you would think I am saying such a thing.

Surprised? You have said as much during the Matthew 7 discussions and did not deny my Pelagian accusations on 5 or 6 occasions. There's no need for drama on "nasty assumptions". I don't have a "Mondar" manual that tells me what you believe for all time. I go based on what you write. And when you tell me an unregenerated man cast out demons in the name of Christ, I got to tell you, I'm worried and perhaps you need to revisit the Council of Orange again. I gave you a number of opportunities to explain yourself, but I didn't see anything, so I think I was reasonable to think you became a Pelagian.

However, your comment ignores my statement and is more smoke and mirrors. You claim James is talking about being saved "in the human eyes", when I have told you over and over that this cannot be true, since James uses the example of Abraham who was justified before GOD'S eyes when about to sacrifice Isaac.

The human requirement for a quart of milk at the corner grocery store is about $1.50...

We aren't talking about economics, where humans set the price of an item. We know that salvation cannot be bought, at any price, so, again, this analogy has no place here, at least for me, because I don't believe that salvation can be purchased. Do you agree?

Your charges of Pelagianism are mere name calling. In fact, is it not more silly for someone with your theology to call someone with my theology "Pelagian?"

Are you going to discuss the issue or are you going to try to turn the tables on me and say I am a name-caller, when I have asked you 5 or 6 times on this accusation and you never denied it. Do you believe that an unregenerated man can cast out devils in the name of Jesus Christ??? It appears that you do. Is James counseling unregenerated men to love the poor, etc, who CANNOT do this without BEING regenerate in the first place? It appears that you are.

Isn't your argument of the Pelagian mindset - that James would counsel men to do love WITHOUT Christ, that Jesus would say that His power was not evident when men were casting out demons in HIS NAME, since "men can do this without God"???

Mondar, You deny teaching Pelagianism, but really, isn't that what this is? The unregenerate, never saved man is expected to do good deeds of love that are salvific?? Isn't this the teaching of Pelagius?

Also, owhere did I suggest that men determine who is saved. Neither did I say that in James men determine who is saved. I did say that the words "show me" appear in verse 18. I did not say who the "me" was in the terms "show me."

Really? Perhaps you should look at your post. You told me that James was speaking of a "different" salvation than Paul, one of "human requirements". "Human requirements" means that humans determine the necessary action and requirements to be saved, do they not? Thus, to you, James is merely speaking about man being saved in the eyes of men, justified in the eyes of men, since they fulfill human requirements of being just.

If that is not what you meant, I would ask that you clarify yourself, because now we are just going in circles to avoid the obvious and simple conclusion that I have already made, but one that your theology does not accept...

I merely stated the fact of the existence of the words in verse 18. I also have requested that you exegetically demonstrate the connection of James 2:18 to the context. I am still waiting for some positive statement on your part concerning verse 18.

I already have. I'll summarize again, my friend. The outward display of a work is the external sign of a living faith. A loving and obedient work shows (for God and for men) that we have a living faith. Without this loving and obedient work, our faith is dead faith.

Now, if you turn your bible to Genesis 22, you'll find that there was no human audience when Abraham was "declared righteous".

Not only this, but God never declared Abraham righteous in Genesis 22, but he did it in Genesis 15:6.

The statement in James 2:21 does not refer to the justificaton of Abraham's salvation, but rather it is the claim of verse 14 and 18 (I have faith) that is justified.

??? You are ignoring my post, yet again...

Did you read James 2:23 and the exact same words Paul uses to describe the justification of Abraham in Romans and Galatians?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

Note, James is speaking about a man being justified at the altar while offering Isaac. Note, James uses the "Abraham believed God and it was reputed to him to justice". "NOW I KNOW", says God. Wasn't James already justified? But "NOW I KNOW". Mondar, doesn't it appear that God is always testing us and justifying us based upon our response to Him???

The same words Paul uses in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 to describe the promise given to Abraham...

As it is written: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Know ye therefore, that they who are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing, that God justifieth the Gentiles by faith, told unto Abraham before: In thee shall all nations be blessed. Gal 3:6-8

What shall we say then that Abraham hath found, who is our father according to the flesh. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. Romans 4:1-3

Genesis 12 describes this first calling, where, by faith (according to Hebrews 11...), Abraham went out, with his entire family, based upon the promise made by God.

And the Lord said to Abram: Go forth out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and out of they father's house, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and magnify thy name, and thou shalt be blessed. I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee, and IN THEE shall all the kindred of the earth be blessed: So Abram went out as the Lord had commanded him, and Lot went with him: Abram was seventy-five years old when he went forth from Haran. Genesis 12:1-4

So we have three events in Abraham's life where, by faith, He trusted and obeyed God, and was considered righteous and just in the eyes of God. Both James and Paul use the Genesis 15 citation to refer to 2 different events in Abraham's life to say that, as a result, Abraham was justified in the eyes of God.

Thus, the conclusion seems obvious, that BOTH writers had the same idea of justification and salvation, since they referred to the same citation to call Abraham just in God's eyes, pointing to two different events in the life of Abraham. This tells us that :

1. Abraham was not justified one time in God's eyes. He was justified on a number of occasions.
2. James and Paul must have the same thing in mind regarding salvation, but different definitions to define "faith" and "works".

This is at the heart of the Protestant/catholic disagreement on 'sola fide'. Definitions, Mondar. Not entirely, but it is a huge part of our disagreement.

This is the same as in Genesis 12. The contexts are the same, the only difference is that Genesis 12 is the first time Abraham responds, while Genesis 22 is one of many future times Abraham responds.

James does not quote Genesis 12, neither does Genesis 12 refer to justification. Galatians 3:8 calls it the gospel to the Gentiles, but the word justification is not related to Genesis 12.

I disagree, the act of Abram was "by faith", just as the Genesis 15 act was "by faith", as in Hebrews 11

Abram listened to God, and by faith, left the land of his fathers, based upon the promises given by God. He was thus justified in Genesis 12. Now, see what else Paul writes on Abraham to back up what I am saying:

By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he abode in the land, dwelling in cottages, with Isaac and Jacob, the co-heirs of the same promise. For he looked for a city that hath foundations; whose builder and maker is God. By faith also Sara herself, being barren, received strength to conceive seed, even past the time of age; because she believed that he was faithful who had promised, For which cause there sprung even from one (and him as good as dead) as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. Heb 11:8-12

Note, Paul makes no distinction, as you do. It is "BY FAITH", that Abraham/Abram obeys and trusts in God, in several different events... ALL are salvific events, faith working in loving obedience to God, trusting in Him, even in the face of not appearing to be possible. BY FAITH is the means by which Abram gets up and leaves his home. JUST as by faith, he believes and acts in Genesis 15.

You are not Pelagian, are you? "By faith" is from God and Abram is justified by God in Genesis 12.

The first time Abraham is considered just, then, is in Genesis 12. He is again declared so in Genesis 15 (as Hebrews notes, "by faith" he does those things), and again Genesis 22, James understands another act of living faith that justifies Abraham in the eyes of God. Clearly, Paul's definition of "BY FAITH" would include an obedient and trusting act that God would do what He promised. This makes a man just in God's eyes, since man is returning the gift of Grace to respond to God's gift.

Paul and James overlap in their useage of the citation of Genesis 15. Is it justification that differs in the two different events described? No, it cannot be different. What must be different is what Paul means by "By FAITH" and what James means by "one cannot be saved by faith alone" - then going on to include justification by works.

The answer, thus, must be that to PAUL, "by faith" refers to "faith working in love", it cannot be mere trust and belief in God, since Paul describes an ACTION of Abraham. Going, Sacrificing, etc. James narrows "faith" to include "a belief in God". He then states "dead faith" vs "living faith", the "living" meaning the manifesting, the "showing" as per v 18, of Living faith, which equals "by faith" of Paul.

Thus, Paul's "BY FAITH" = "by works, faith is perfected". Both mean the same thing : "x believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice"

Regards

 

[RichardBurger]

Are you playing dumb??? The point is obvious.

But let me spell it out to you. Man says the things written in James was written for the Gentile grace church. HOWEVERRRRRRR, James didn't say that.

I still am not sure of your point. James is part of the inerrant, inspired-by-God Scriptures. They are not teaching two different Gospels, one for Jews and one for Gentiles.

Your bias keeps you from seeing the truth. I agree that the Scriptures are inspired by God but what has that to do with who the book of James was written to?

The book of James is still the inspired word of God even though it is not addressed to the Gentile grace church and is not intended to be used by those under grace. I am amazed that you can't see that.

God had a hidden secondary purpose for the death of Jesus on the cross. From Jesus, and the preaching of the "Kingdom of Heaven," to this time in which we now live is a new dispensation and it was not mentioned in the O.T. it was not mentioned in the first 4 books of the N.T. nor was it mentioned in the Jewish writings of the 12. This new gospel was ""hidden in God"" and revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus, Acts 9:3-6 and Eph 3:8-9.

All that was written "to the Jews" in the O.T. and the N.T. was written "to the Jews," not to the Gentiles. Is it necessary for us to understand them? YES. If we don't then we are missing the foundation for understanding who Jesus is and the shift to the gospel of God's grace. The message of salvation by God's grace, "alone," given to Paul, was without precedence. It was not in the Jewish relationship with God. The Jewish relationship was a religious one of "faith + works to show that faith" (James 2:24). However, the gospel of God's grace requires no works whatsoever. God has done all the works that are necessary on the cross. As Paul said;

Rom 4:5-6 (NKJ)
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

 

[n2thelight]

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

"Faith without works is dead", it is a dead faith. To put it another way, your faith as well as yourself are a fake. Many people today say that works are not necessary when you are a Christian. God is very natural in every thing that He does, and anything that will not work God does away with. When it is no longer of use, it returns back to its original elements. Rust or oxidation returns steel back to iron, oxygen and the elements that it was made of. Plants that die are decomposed to their original elements, and in faith, when the faith does not produce the natural order that it is intended to produce, it returns to what it was at the start. The natural order of any faith in Jesus Christ is to produce the works that your faith is suppose to produce. God gives each of us some form of gifts that He expects us to use and strengthen our faith. When we do not use those gifts, our faith dies, and returns to what we were before receiving the faith.

In the case of the handicapped, they have a very special gift, and their testimony means far more than someone that is old and without works. When the unbeliever sees someone handicapped that is a believer and has faith and works, it goes a long way in turning them to Christ. In Revelation 14:13 we are told exactly what we can take with us when we leave this life in our flesh bodies.

Revelation 14:13 "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforeth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them' "

Your works are the only thing that you take with you, for your works are already written in the book. It is what your eternal garment that you will be wearing for all eternity is made of. John was doing the writing as the Holy Spirit of Jesus is doing the talking, and telling John exactly what to write. Your labors are what you do in the flesh, not the spirit, it is what you do while in your flesh body. Your labors are your works and those things that you do for Christ and each of them follow you to heaven when you die, or at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your works are what shows the quality of man or woman, boy or girl that you are.

James 2:21 "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?"

Our Lord Jesus Christ hadn't walked the earth during the time of Abraham, and the faith teachers had not been born yet. Abraham was judged by the works and acts that he did by God, and God found Abraham to be righteous through those righteous acts. He had the faith to believe that God said what He meant, and Abraham acted on those words. Abraham was to old to have a child, and God comes along and gives Abraham and Sarah the ability to give birth to Isaac, which was a miracle birth. Sarah's womb was years past bearing age, for she is one hundred years old at the time of Isaac's birth. Isaac was a miracle child.

God had promised Abraham that "the seed of Isaac would be as the stars in the heavens and the sands of the sea", and Abraham believed God. Then when God asked Abraham to kill his son on an altar as a sacrifice to Him, Abraham was willing to do it, for Abraham trusted God, and knew that somehow God would raise Isaac from the dead if necessary to keep His Word. It was God's Word that was at stake, and Abraham did not question how God would do what He said that He would do. What mattered to Abraham was that he obey exactly as God instructed him to do. That is what is called "works", it is complete obedience to God's Word. Abraham knew that God would not lie, and that God was in control and would hold his hand with the blade in it, if that is what God desired.

This is works and putting your faith into action. This is why Abraham's works are counted as faith. This is stated again in Hebrews 11:8; "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he wit out, not knowing whither he went."

Hebrews 11:9 "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;"

God asked Abraham to do something, and He did it without question.

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

This is how any man is judged by God or another man; you are judged by what you do that others can see. It is important to confess Christ to others, and repent of your sins to the Heavenly Father in Jesus name, but the degree that others will believe you, is by the action that you do through your works. Works will not save you alone, it is faith that saves you, and what makes your faith believable is the works that are produced by your faith. It is impossible for anyone to have faith in our Father and His Word, and know His overall plan, and not be doing works in your life. The one produces the other. You simply cannot pray for the wisdom from God, and the blessings from God, and not do something about it through your works. It is an impossibility.

http://www.theseason.org/james/james1.htm

As for who the Book was written to,he tells you.....

James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

 

[MarkT]

That’s right. The tree is made good or it is made bad. The good tree produces good fruit in season.

Try to be like your heavenly Father and show yourselves to be his sons. Give good gifts to those who ask. Love God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Love your neighbour as yourself. Forgive men their trespasses. Don’t judge, for your Father judges no one. He has given all judgment to his Son. If you do these things you are doing well.

 

[RichardBurger]

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

In my honest opinion the above verse was never intended to be preached in the grace church. People may think that when they do a good work it proves their faith but I certainly don't see it as doing it. What I see is that they place their faith, trust, confidence and hope in their works just as the Jewish people were doing.

Many people do good works and never claim to believe in God. -- I prove my faith when I refuse to think any good works I do will give me a ticket into heaven; when I completely depend on God to cover my sins in the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ and refuse to accept the idea I can insure my salvation by any good that I do. My faith is proven by my complete trust in God; not my attempts at works. -- Do I have good works??? God knows!!!

Romans 10:10-11
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV

These verses are the ones to preach in the grace church.

 

[MarkT]

But we need to understand both things; faith and works. Our works are imperfect. That’s why Jesus taught us how to pray. Jesus said, if you have faith and never doubt, then whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive. When we pray the Lord's prayer, we ask for forgiveness. If we are depending on works, then our works have to be perfect. Let us do what Jesus said. Let us pray. And Peter said, ‘above all hold unfailing love for one another since love covers a multitude of sins.’ Peter 4:8 So do that. But remember the man who was cast out because he wasn't wearing a wedding garment. Mt. 22:12

The righteousness of God is faith; it’s a gift. When we put our confidence in Jesus Christ, our salvation is assured. Through faith, he becomes our righteousness, our garment, our covering; he covers our nakedness. We can say Abraham was righteous before God because he had faith. In other words, he was covered, or not naked, before God. He had faith.

Salvation depends on faith. But ultimately both salvation and faith depend on God.

 

[MarkT]

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

In my honest opinion the above verse was never intended to be preached in the grace church. People may think that when they do a good work it proves their faith but I certainly don't see it as doing it. What I see is that they place their faith, trust, confidence and hope in their works just as the Jewish people were doing.

Many people do good works and never claim to believe in God. -- I prove my faith when I refuse to think any good works I do will give me a ticket into heaven; when I completely depend on God to cover my sins in the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ and refuse to accept the idea I can insure my salvation by any good that I do. My faith is proven by my complete trust in God; not my attempts at works. -- Do I have good works??? God knows!!!

Romans 10:10-11
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
NKJV

These verses are the ones to preach in the grace church.

But I wouldn't say James disagrees with Paul.

1 Corinthians 13:2 RSV
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

To add to that. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the peacemakers.

You should try to see the love of God, the love of his Son, the love we have for our brethren, the peace that comes from God, the mercy of God; try to see these things as being the works of God or the works of the law of liberty.

 

[MarkT]

Basically we can see two laws now - the law of sin and death and the law of liberty which freed us from the law of sin and death. One is at work in our flesh and one is at work in our spirit - our heart and soul and mind.

 

[RichardBurger]

But I wouldn't say James disagrees with Paul.

1 Corinthians 13:2 RSV
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

To add to that. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the peacemakers.

You should try to see the love of God, the love of his Son, the love we have for our brethren, the peace that comes from God, the mercy of God; try to see these things as being the works of God or the works of the law of liberty.

Why thank you Mark, now I see that I am to see the love of God!!!!!!!!
What a judgemental statement. You don't know anything about my heart.

Romans 14:1-4
The Law of Liberty 14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
NKJV

 

[MarkT]

MarkT wrote:But I wouldn't say James disagrees with Paul.

1 Corinthians 13:2 RSV
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

To add to that. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the peacemakers.

You should try to see the love of God, the love of his Son, the love we have for our brethren, the peace that comes from God, the mercy of God; try to see these things as being the works of God or the works of the law of liberty.


Why thank you Mark, now I see that I am to see the love of God!!!!!!!!
What a judgemental statement. You don't know anything about my heart.

Romans 14:1-4
The Law of Liberty 14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

I meant to say those things come from God by the Spirit of God. Those things are God working in us. A lot of things come by reading. But God made us read and he gave us understanding.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

According to James, Abraham was justified by works. Which is correct. He was shown to be righteous.

Abraham showed the LORD that he feared God. The word, ‘justify’ has a ‘show to be just or right’ meaning. Can a man be righteous and his deeds not show it? You can’t really separate the two things.

You can’t say you have faith and hate your brother. You can’t see your brother or sister are in need of food and clothing and say to them, ‘Go in peace. God will take care of you’ without giving them what they need for the body. It’s not right.

 

[mondar]

Hold on here, I did use the term "human requirements" for faith with reference to Paul's epistles. It is a rather nasty assumption on your part that I was suggesting that faith is generated by the sinful nature of unregenerate men. I am surprised you would think I am saying such a thing.

Surprised? You have said as much during the Matthew 7 discussions and did not deny my Pelagian accusations on 5 or 6 occasions.

I dont remember seeing this. Possibly I did not think it worth responding to such foolish accusations.

There's no need for drama on "nasty assumptions". I don't have a "Mondar" manual that tells me what you believe for all time. I go based on what you write. And when you tell me an unregenerated man cast out demons in the name of Christ, I got to tell you, I'm worried and perhaps you need to revisit the Council of Orange again. I gave you a number of opportunities to explain yourself, but I didn't see anything, so I think I was reasonable to think you became a Pelagian.

Yes, and you think the regenerate can go to hell....
Mat 7:14 For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

To say that I am Pelagian, because I suggest that the unregenerate cast out demons only shows a tremendous lack of knowledge on your part what Pelagianism actually was in history. The 2nd council of Orange condemned Pelagius' views because Pelagius took a position of "free will" as opposed to the view that the will is enslaved by our Adamic nature. Your theology is a "free will" position, and is closer to Pelagianism then mine.

Here are free will clauses from 2nd Council of Orange (http://www.crivoice.org/creedorange.html)
CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, "The will is prepared by the Lord" (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 23. Concerning the will of God and of man. Men do their own will and not the will of God when they do what displeases him; but when they follow their own will and comply with the will of God, however willingly they do so, yet it is his will by which what they will is both prepared and instructed.

I did say that the unregenerate cast out demons, I did not say they were doing the works of God and earned their salvation by those works.

Also, nowhere did I suggest that men determine who is saved. Neither did I say that in James men determine who is saved. I did say that the words "show me" appear in verse 18. I did not say who the "me" was in the terms "show me."

Really? Perhaps you should look at your post. You told me that James was speaking of a "different" salvation than Paul, one of "human requirements".

This is getting old now. No, I did not say that James and Paul were speaking of a different salvation. Neither did I speak of "human requirements." Actually, I am tired of you suggesting I said things I did not say. See you later.

 

[RichardBurger]

MarkT wrote:But I wouldn't say James disagrees with Paul.

1 Corinthians 13:2 RSV
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

To add to that. Blessed are the merciful. Blessed are the peacemakers.

You should try to see the love of God, the love of his Son, the love we have for our brethren, the peace that comes from God, the mercy of God; try to see these things as being the works of God or the works of the law of liberty.


Why thank you Mark, now I see that I am to see the love of God!!!!!!!!
What a judgemental statement. You don't know anything about my heart.

Romans 14:1-4
The Law of Liberty 14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

I meant to say those things come from God by the Spirit of God. Those things are God working in us. A lot of things come by reading. But God made us read and he gave us understanding.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

According to James, Abraham was justified by works. Which is correct. He was shown to be righteous.

Abraham showed the LORD that he feared God. The word, ‘justify’ has a ‘show to be just or right’ meaning. Can a man be righteous and his deeds not show it? You can’t really separate the two things.

You can’t say you have faith and hate your brother. You can’t see your brother or sister are in need of food and clothing and say to them, ‘Go in peace. God will take care of you’ without giving them what they need for the body. It’s not right.

However, according to Paul who referenced Gen. 15 Abraham was justified before God solely because he believed God's promises that were made to him and that is not what James said.

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

As you can see Paul said that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that Abraham did.  Paul accurately reports this.  It seems that James referenced an event that took place many years after Gen 15, an event recorded in Genesis 22, years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old. This is the same thing I said in the orginal post on this thread.

Romans 4:1-7
Abraham Justified by Faith (Genesis 17:10) 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

 

[francisdesales]

Your bias keeps you from seeing the truth. I agree that the Scriptures are inspired by God but what has that to do with who the book of James was written to?

The book of James is still the inspired word of God even though it is not addressed to the Gentile grace church and is not intended to be used by those under grace. I am amazed that you can't see that.

My bias??? LOL!!!

Who cares whether James was written to a Christian church on the moon. It is written to Christians, and ALL Christians are under grace. NO Christian is under the Law anymore - if so, then the death of Jesus is of no value. Haven't you looked at the letter to the Hebrews in your bible study?

James is not writing to Jews, but Christians - many of which are likely Jewish Christians, meaning, they originally were Jewish, not that they still practice circumcision and hand washing and other such rituals. In addition, we don't know if OTHER GENTILES existed WITHIN this community. That it is largely of a Jewish Christian background does not rule out that some Gentiles live within the community.

Whatever James says in James 2 applies equally to Gentile Christians as well. This "two gospel" notion is nonsense, and the Council of Jerusalem makes that clear. Alllowances will be made to not scandalize Jews converting, but the Gospel remains applicable to both. That Christ died to redeem men and that the Kingdom of God is at hand. Circumcision is as nothing, and James never makes it a point that this OR the Mosaic Law has salvific meaning anymore.

You are misinterpeting the Gospel of Grace, which certainly DOES NOT MEAN WE no longer have to do "works of faith". Romans never says that.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

This is getting old now. No, I did not say that James and Paul were speaking of a different salvation. Neither did I speak of "human requirements." Actually, I am tired of you suggesting I said things I did not say. See you later.

Anyone can go back and read the posts and see what you wrote, and even if you edit stuff out, it will still be there in my reply posts to you. Really, Mondar, why do you think I was surprised on some of your responses?

The Pelagian accusation remains, the attempts to call the audience of James "unregenerate" remains, the "human requirements" remains, and so does the "James is talking about a different salvation than Paul" in your posts - all which you now contradict that you didn't say...

What you deny in this post are clearly shown for anyone interested in seeing how you say one thing and then change what you are saying a few posts later.

I did say that the unregenerate cast out demons, I did not say they were doing the works of God and earned their salvation by those works.

Another non-sequitar, since NO ONE believes that works earns salvation. Furthermore, what did Christ say about a kingdom divided again???


Orange does not tell us that unregenerate men can do works of love that are salvific, as you claim in your posts. The "no, you are Pelagian" is just childish without any support.


If I was you and had made so many contradictory statements, I also would "see you later"...

 

[RichardBurger]

Your bias keeps you from seeing the truth. I agree that the Scriptures are inspired by God but what has that to do with who the book of James was written to?

The book of James is still the inspired word of God even though it is not addressed to the Gentile grace church and is not intended to be used by those under grace. I am amazed that you can't see that.

My bias??? LOL!!!

Who cares whether James was written to a Christian church on the moon. It is written to Christians, and ALL Christians are under grace. NO Christian is under the Law anymore - if so, then the death of Jesus is of no value. Haven't you looked at the letter to the Hebrews in your bible study?

James is not writing to Jews, but Christians - many of which are likely Jewish Christians, meaning, they originally were Jewish, not that they still practice circumcision and hand washing and other such rituals. In addition, we don't know if OTHER GENTILES existed WITHIN this community. That it is largely of a Jewish Christian background does not rule out that some Gentiles live within the community.

Whatever James says in James 2 applies equally to Gentile Christians as well. This "two gospel" notion is nonsense, and the Council of Jerusalem makes that clear. Alllowances will be made to not scandalize Jews converting, but the Gospel remains applicable to both. That Christ died to redeem men and that the Kingdom of God is at hand. Circumcision is as nothing, and James never makes it a point that this OR the Mosaic Law has salvific meaning anymore.

You are misinterpeting the Gospel of Grace, which certainly DOES NOT MEAN WE no longer have to do "works of faith". Romans never says that.

Regards

What do you consider to be works of faith?

If we have to do any works that are mentioned in the law of Moses to be justified before God then we are back under the law of Moses.