Was James confused?

[francisdesales]

What do you consider to be works of faith?

If we have to do any works that are mentioned in the law of Moses to be justified before God then we are back under the law of Moses.

Paul, in Romans 4, notes that Abraham was declared righteous.

Did Abraham JUST believe, or would you say his actions spoke of his faith (as James himself notes when referring to what Abraham DID when about to offer Isaac).

A work of faith would be an action that stems from a love and trust in God. Merely stating one has faith, but having no actions is a dead faith, as if Abraham had never left his home in Iraq. Giving a glass of water, as in Mat 25, can be an act of faith working in love.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

However, according to Paul who referenced Gen. 15 Abraham was justified before God solely because he believed God's promises that were made to him and that is not what James said.

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

As you can see Paul said that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James referenced an event that took place many years after Gen 15, an event recorded in Genesis 22, years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old. This is the same thing I said in the orginal post on this thread.

Romans 4:1-7
Abraham Justified by Faith (Genesis 17:10) 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

I think you answered your own question. We have two events and two references. The right to be called a son of God is unearned. It depends on faith. (Paul) Many people hear and believe God is One (James), but when their faith is put to the test, they fold. Abraham didn’t break faith with God.

What made Abraham righteous was that he believed God. He was justified by faith. But a lot of time passed between the promise and the birth of Isaac. But Abraham didn’t lose faith. He never doubted God. Isaac was born. Then God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. So Abraham was put to the test. Gen. 22

God wanted to know - Does Abraham fear God? Will Abraham withhold his son? Will Abraham do whatever I ask of him? Will Abraham break faith with God? But Abraham showed the LORD that he feared God. He didn't break faith with God. He was willing to sacrifice Isaac and he believed God would keep his promise, and Isaac would be his heir.

So, many people are justified by faith. But when they are put to the test, they fail. They don't fear God.

They don't do what they know they are supposed to do. They don't show kindness or mercy and they don't forgive. So James says their faith is dead.

 

[RichardBurger]

However, according to Paul who referenced Gen. 15 Abraham was justified before God solely because he believed God's promises that were made to him and that is not what James said.

Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)

As you can see Paul said that God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that Abraham did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James referenced an event that took place many years after Gen 15, an event recorded in Genesis 22, years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old. This is the same thing I said in the orginal post on this thread.

Romans 4:1-7
Abraham Justified by Faith (Genesis 17:10) 4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
NKJV

I think you answered your own question. We have two events and two references. The right to be called a son of God is unearned. It depends on faith. (Paul) Many people hear and believe God is One (James), but when their faith is put to the test, they fold. Abraham didn’t break faith with God.

What made Abraham righteous was that he believed God. He was justified by faith. But a lot of time passed between the promise and the birth of Isaac. But Abraham didn’t lose faith. He never doubted God. Isaac was born. Then God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. So Abraham was put to the test. Gen. 22

God wanted to know - Does Abraham fear God? Will Abraham withhold his son? Will Abraham do whatever I ask of him? Will Abraham break faith with God? But Abraham showed the LORD that he feared God. He didn't break faith with God. He was willing to sacrifice Isaac and he believed God would keep his promise, and Isaac would be his heir.

So, many people are justified by faith. But when they are put to the test, they fail. They don't fear God.

They don't do what they know they are supposed to do. They don't show kindness or mercy and they don't forgive. So James says their faith is dead.

No one living in sinful flesh can love others ALL THE TIME. No one living in sinful flesh can forgive others ALL THE TIME. No one living in sinful flesh can show mercy ALL THE TIME. Does that mean their faith is on a seesaw, up and down?

Does that mean we are better than another because we think we are doing those things more than others? There are many on these forums that preach good works and then go about disparaging those that disagree with them and all the time they think they are loving others. Its like the Pharsees who thought they were keeping the law of Moses when they were plotting murder.

If anyone thinks they are doing good works then they really ought to see if it is true. Many do good works because of what James said and not because they want to and if they are doing them because of what James said their works are selfish since they intend to profit by them.

As for me my faith is not in works. My faith is in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and there is no way I can make you see my faith. But God sees it and that is all that matters.

What others can see is that I place no faith in my works. I give Jesus ALL THE CREDIT.

 

[MarkT]

No one living in sinful flesh can love others ALL THE TIME. No one living in sinful flesh can forgive others ALL THE TIME. No one living in sinful flesh can show mercy ALL THE TIME. Does that mean their faith is on a seesaw, up and down?

Does that mean we are better than another because we think we are doing those things more than others? There are many on these forums that preach good works and then go about disparaging those that disagree with them and all the time they think they are loving others. Its like the Pharsees who thought they were keeping the law of Moses when they were plotting murder.

If anyone thinks they are doing good works then they really ought to see if it is true. Many do good works because of what James said and not because they want to and if they are doing them because of what James said their works are selfish since they intend to profit by them.

As for me my faith is not in works. My faith is in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and there is no way I can make you see my faith. But God sees it and that is all that matters.

What others can see is that I place no faith in my works. I give Jesus ALL THE CREDIT.

The word ‘justify’ has the opposite meaning of condemned, and there’s a ‘prison’ connotation to it, as in, condemned to prison, and released from prison, as in, the prisoners are released from prison - cleared of blame, made guiltless, as in, the prisoners are released from prison. On what grounds? The law of sin and death condemned us to death. But the law of liberty set us free.

So when you are ‘justified’ you are released from prison. Your debt has been paid, God has forgiven you. Now you are free. However, if you do not forgive your brother his debt (a work), God will cast you out. See the parable Mt. 18:23-35 ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all your debt because you be-sought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.’

Now you are free, are you also free to act irresponsibly? Can you forget God? Can you say you are now out of reach? God can’t get you.

I agree there are those who do good works to be seen. But what do they have to do with you. They don’t fear God. They don’t do what they are supposed to do. They are wise in their own eyes.

You say you’re not perfect. O.K. But why do you think Jesus gave us the Lord’s prayer? Because he knew once we were set free, we would do right all the time? Or is it because he knew we wouldn’t?

The fear of God is the fear of consequences and the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. Be wise. If you don’t fear God, you will forget him. If there are no consequences, why should you fear God?

My brothers, pray the Lord’s prayer daily, and not just when you are in church, and never doubt God will forgive you your trespasses; because you don’t know when our Lord will return. Keep it in your heart at all times. Dwell upon it. And pray in secret so it's between you and God; not to be seen by men. Do it in your room. I'm not sure how effective prayer in church is. It may not be effective at all.

Don’t go to sleep thinking he is delayed. Show kindness and mercy at all times. Forgive those who trespass against you. Let the word of God be active in you.

 

[RichardBurger]

No one living in sinful flesh can love others ALL THE TIME. No one living in sinful flesh can forgive others ALL THE TIME. No one living in sinful flesh can show mercy ALL THE TIME. Does that mean their faith is on a seesaw, up and down?

Does that mean we are better than another because we think we are doing those things more than others? There are many on these forums that preach good works and then go about disparaging those that disagree with them and all the time they think they are loving others. Its like the Pharsees who thought they were keeping the law of Moses when they were plotting murder.

If anyone thinks they are doing good works then they really ought to see if it is true. Many do good works because of what James said and not because they want to and if they are doing them because of what James said their works are selfish since they intend to profit by them.

As for me my faith is not in works. My faith is in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and there is no way I can make you see my faith. But God sees it and that is all that matters.

What others can see is that I place no faith in my works. I give Jesus ALL THE CREDIT.

The word ‘justify’ has the opposite meaning of condemned, and there’s a ‘prison’ connotation to it, as in, condemned to prison, and released from prison, as in, the prisoners are released from prison - cleared of blame, made guiltless, as in, the prisoners are released from prison. On what grounds? The law of sin and death condemned us to death. But the law of liberty set us free.

So when you are ‘justified’ you are released from prison. Your debt has been paid, God has forgiven you. Now you are free. However, if you do not forgive your brother his debt (a work), God will cast you out. See the parable Mt. 18:23-35 ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all your debt because you be-sought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.’

Now you are free, are you also free to act irresponsibly? Can you forget God? Can you say you are now out of reach? God can’t get you.

I agree there are those who do good works to be seen. But what do they have to do with you. They don’t fear God. They don’t do what they are supposed to do. They are wise in their own eyes.

You say you’re not perfect. O.K. But why do you think Jesus gave us the Lord’s prayer? Because he knew once we were set free, we would do right all the time? Or is it because he knew we wouldn’t?

The fear of God is the fear of consequences and the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom. Be wise. If you don’t fear God, you will forget him. If there are no consequences, why should you fear God?

My brothers, pray the Lord’s prayer daily, and not just when you are in church, and never doubt God will forgive you your trespasses; because you don’t know when our Lord will return. Keep it in your heart at all times. Dwell upon it. And pray in secret so it's between you and God; not to be seen by men. Do it in your room. I'm not sure how effective prayer in church is. It may not be effective at all.

Don’t go to sleep thinking he is delayed. Show kindness and mercy at all times. Forgive those who trespass against you. Let the word of God be active in you.

You said "You say you’re not perfect. O.K. But why do you think Jesus gave us the Lord’s prayer? Because he knew once we were set free, we would do right all the time? Or is it because he knew we wouldn’t?

This has to be a joke. You seem to think you do right ALL THE TIME. Jesus came to save the sick; the sinners of this world. But you seem to think He makes a person perfect in this world and that is not supported by the scriptures or history.

Galatians 3:3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
NKJV

I will tell you where your religious idea that we become perfect in the flesh leads.

A tragic story:

When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.

It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him.

I found that he had been talking to some Christians that were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning. He wanted to stop sinning but he said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it in your mind. He wanted to know what I believed about it.

I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves; to do for them what they could not do, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to trust that it has saved you.

I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.

It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of the self-righteous does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. They don't go in themselves (because they still sin too) and they prevent others that would go in from doing so, all because they want to see themselves as better, and more righteous, than others.

Matt 23:11-13
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
(NKJ)

If I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their trust (faith) in Him.

But the religious want to make a show that they do not sin any longer.

Now if you wish to say that I should have told him I no longer sinned in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today.

But you won't be able to see this because you think you are perfect.

 

[MarkT]

You said "You say you’re not perfect. O.K. But why do you think Jesus gave us the Lord’s prayer? Because he knew once we were set free, we would do right all the time? Or is it because he knew we wouldn’t?

This has to be a joke. You seem to think you do right ALL THE TIME. Jesus came to save the sick; the sinners of this world. But you seem to think He makes a person perfect in this world and that is not supported by the scriptures or history.

I said just the opposite of what you think I said. I didn't say I was perfect. If I did right all the time (never sinned), then I wouldn't need to pray the Lord's prayer. But I do. I pray the Lord's prayer all the time. The reason I do is that I don't do right all the time (I sin). Therefore I need to pray. Maybe I should clarify this. I did not say that I never sin. Suffice it to say that I do. And my conscience convicts me. However praying the Lord's prayer is doing right. In that respect I am doing right all the time. Hope I'm not confusing you.

The only thing perfect in this world is God's way.

 

[Logos57]

James 2:14-17
14) What doth it profit, my brethren, through a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15) If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food.
16) And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to body; what doth if profit.
17) Even so faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
If you will notice this passage in James, sounds very similiar to a passage in I John
I John 3:17-18
17) But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteh up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the Love of God in him?
18) My little children let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and truth.
Even the Book of Proverbs has a similiar statement:
Proverbs 3:27-29
27) Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it.
28) Say not unto thy neighbour, Go and come again, and tomorrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee.
29) Devise not evil against thy neighbour, seeing he dwelleth securely by thee.

By the way notice this statement of James before he gives his lecture of faith and works:
If ye fufil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself ye do well:
James 2:8
This commandment is record all though the New Testament Jesus mention the two Greatest commandments 1) Love God and 2) Love thy Neighbour, (Matthews 22:37-39) than states:
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:40

Paul records this in Romans 13:8-10; and even says that the bond of perfectness is charity/love (Colossians 3:14). Paul even says without Charity/Love even with his faith he is nothing (I Corinthians 13:2).
But Paul says the same thing that James does in Galatians 5:6, 13:
6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
13) For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty only use not liberty for an occassion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Paul prayed for the Thessalonians, saying "Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love..." (I Thessalonians 1:3). One again Paul connects faith and love/works. James has just repeated what Paul say but a little differently. My apologies for a long post.