Was Jesus a pacifist?

[Free]

Did I say that Christians should use violence in the face of persecution?
No, I did not.

It was very strongly implied.

But I do so now. I do not see Christianity as teaching that I must allow myself, my family, my neighbors to be raped and murdered by ISIS worshipers of Satan if I have the ability to resist them even with deadly force.

So, now that you have explicitly stated it, please post just one verse that supports Christians using violence in the face of persecution:

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm 67 years old.
No one has ever attacked my wife or I.

So because of your experience, you think everyone should be like you.
How about the women who experienced gang raping as a method of warfare?
How about the people who are subjected to genocide because they are the wrong tribe or have the wrong politics or are the wrong color?
Because you have been blessed with a peaceful life does not mean that everyone else will have the same.

We are protected by the blood of Jesus.

So what happened to the Christians who were beheaded and their women raped and sold as sex slaves by Muslim Jihadists?
Why weren't they protected by the blood of Jesus?
When a Moro in the Philippines murders a Christian, why isn't he protected by the3 blood of Jesus.
You are ignoring all the evidence to the contrary of your unchallenged pacifism.
It's easy to be a pacifist when ho one ever attempts to do you harm.
But that's not the entirety of the real world.
It's just the pretty bubble that you live in.

 

[Free]

So because of your experience, you think everyone should be like you.
How about the women who experienced gang raping as a method of warfare?
How about the people who are subjected to genocide because they are the wrong tribe or have the wrong politics or are the wrong color?
Because you have been blessed with a peaceful life does not mean that everyone else will have the same.

So what happened to the Christians who were beheaded and their women raped and sold as sex slaves by Muslim Jihadists?
Why weren't they protected by the blood of Jesus?
When a Moro in the Philippines murders a Christian, why isn't he protected by the3 blood of Jesus.
You are ignoring all the evidence to the contrary of your unchallenged pacifism.
It's easy to be a pacifist when ho one ever attempts to do you harm.
But that's not the entirety of the real world.
It's just the pretty bubble that you live in.

What do you think Jesus means in this passage?

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
Mat 10:30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. (ESV)

 

[Jim Parker]

It was very strongly implied.
So, now that you have explicitly stated it, please post just one verse that supports Christians using violence in the face of persecution:

Right after you post the verse that says that a Syrian Christian should let his wife and daughters be raped and then his whole family be murdered by being doused with gasoline and set afire rather than resist such evil with any and every means at his disposal.

All this pacifism sounds very pretty when someone is not faced with the very ugly realities of the depth and outrageous depravity of evil in this world. Are you saying you would do nothing to prevent you wife and daughters being gang raped and murdered by 100 Jihadists? Even if you had the ability to resist you would just stand there?

"Don't worry, sweetie! You'll go to heaven just as soon as they're finished raping you and after they set you on fire."

How about love your wife and children?
How about doe everything you can to protect them?
Does that sound like a Christian thing to you?


Here's scripture that says not to tolerate evil.
"You must purge the evil from among you." (DT 13:5; 17:7, 12; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21, 22, 24; 24:7)

 

[Jim Parker]

What do you think Jesus means in this passage?

It means what he said.
Don't fear those people.
He didn't say, let them murder your family after they're through raping and beating them and putting their cigarettes out on them and using them for bayonet practice.

 

[Drew]

At the other end of the Bible we find Jesus again at the head of the armies of heaven.
Rev 19:11-13 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

It seems to me that these revelations of Jesus make it impossible to consider Him to be a pacifist.

iakov the fool

Metaphor, rather obviously.

Revelation is chock full of images of violence for which Jesus is responsible.

Jesus - the prince of peace, the one who encourages us to love enemies, and return evil with good.

Do you not see the problem?

I would be stunned if even a handful of scholars think that John is telling us Jesus will return in order to commit mass slaughter.

 

[Jim Parker]

The early church in colonial America also had witch trials.

The term "early church" is used to refer to the church of the first few centuries not the 17th century.

 

[Jim Parker]

Metaphor, rather obviously.

Obvious to you, apparently.
Did the people of Canaan think the invasion of the Israelites was a metaphor?

Revelation is chock full of images of violence for which Jesus is responsible.

So why dismiss them?

Jesus - the prince of peace, the one who encourages us to love enemies, and return evil with good.

Yeah. That's the same Jesus who led the armies of the Lord against the Canaanites.
That's the same God who ordered that Israel wipes every last man, woman, child and oldster and all their animals off the face of the earth. God told Israel not to allow any of them to live and to show no pity.
Why do you think God, who does not change, who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, changed?

He does tell us to love our enemies. It is not loving to allow our enemy to continue to kill people.
In fact, it would be stupid.
In time of war, loving your enemy is treating wounded and captured enemy soldiers humanely.
It doesn't mean throw down your arms and let them have whatever they want.

I would be stunned if even a handful of scholars think that John is telling us Jesus will return in order to commit mass slaughter.

Be stunned.
What do you think the passage I cited was talking about?
What are all the warlike passages talking about?
Explain the metaphor?

 

[Free]

Right after you post the verse that says that a Syrian Christian should let his wife and daughters be raped and then his whole family be murdered by being doused with gasoline and set afire rather than resist such evil with any and every means at his disposal.

All this pacifism sounds very pretty when someone is not faced with the very ugly realities of the depth and outrageous depravity of evil in this world. Are you saying you would do nothing to prevent you wife and daughters being gang raped and murdered by 100 Jihadists? Even if you had the ability to resist you would just stand there?

"Don't worry, sweetie! You'll go to heaven just as soon as they're finished raping you and after they set you on fire."

How about love your wife and children?
How about doe everything you can to protect them?
Does that sound like a Christian thing to you?


Here's scripture that says not to tolerate evil.
"You must purge the evil from among you." (DT 13:5; 17:7, 12; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21, 22, 24; 24:7)

Red herring. You stated that Christians are to use violence in the face of persecution. I have asked for just one verse. Since you won't answer, I'll save you the trouble and state what we both know to be true: there is no verse that supports Christians using violence in the face of persecution. Additionally, the NT isn't silent on the issue either, which we also both know to be true.

Mat 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Mat 5:10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Mat 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
Mat 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Mat 10:21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death,
Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Mat 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Mat 10:24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household.

Luk 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer,
Luk 21:15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.
Luk 21:16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death.
Luk 21:17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.
Luk 21:19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

Joh 15:18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
Joh 15:21 But all these things they will do to you on account of my name, because they do not know him who sent me.

Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them.

1Pe 3:9 Do not repay evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary, bless, for to this you were called, that you may obtain a blessing.

1Pe 3:14 But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled,

(All ESV.)

There are probably others but that should suffice.

 

[Free]

It means what he said.
Don't fear those people.
He didn't say, let them murder your family after they're through raping and beating them and putting their cigarettes out on them and using them for bayonet practice.

I agree it means what he said. And what else did he say? I even bolded the part that you didn't address. Do you agree that "even the hairs of your head are all numbered" means that God has ordained a certain amount of time on this earth for everyone, and that when our time is up, it's up, that there is nothing man can do to change that?

 

[Jim Parker]

Red herring. You stated that Christians are to use violence in the face of persecution.

Misquote.
I do not believe a Christian should be a pacifist.

I wasn't talking about persecution. (hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.)
That's not the topic of this thread.

I was talking about PACIFISM. (the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means.)
That IS the topic of this thread.

If you want to talk about the proper response to persecution then why not start another thread on that topic?

 

[godsquadgeek]

WHOA!!!
The early church ADDRESSED and REFUTED doctrinal errors.
The early church refuted the error that Christ was a creature (like the JWs today), that His will was replaced by the divine will, that He only seemed to have suffered, that He was not born as God-in-flesh but as the Christ, and other heresies.
The early church refuted the teaching that the Holy Spirit was less than God, that He is not a person but simply the power of God. (as the JWs teach today) By refuting these errors, the early church established the doctrine of the trinity.
They refuted the end time doctrinal error of a literal 1000 year reign at the second ecumenical counsel.

So, exactly what doctrinal errors did the early church teach as a necessary doctrine of Christianity?

I didn't say the cardinal doctrines were in error, I said that they should not be our examples. Since the rise of dispensationalism, biblical literalness has taken a turn for the better. Early church did not believe in the rapture. They believed also in prayers for the dead.

 

[Free]

Misquote.
I do not believe a Christian should be a pacifist.

I wasn't talking about persecution. (hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs.)
That's not the topic of this thread.

I was talking about PACIFISM. (the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means.)
That IS the topic of this thread.

If you want to talk about the proper response to persecution then why not start another thread on that topic?

What was a misquote? You clearly stated that you think Christians can use violence in the face of persecution. Are you now saying you didn't understand what you said?

 

[godsquadgeek]

1. Where is there any reference to self-defense?

2. You conveniently ignore verse 37. Simple verse lookup exercise for you: please write out verse 37.

I have explained to you numerous times that your interpretation of verse thirty seven is flawed and makes assumptions. For example: jesus deceiving others for the sake of a lie is sinful. And I believe jesus to be without sin.

 

[jasonc]

Lead the charge Jim, you got the motorcycle
You also have all the rapists and murders in your neighborhood
None of that stuff around here

No crime in your county?so why hide your name if you truly believe that? Please I lived in a smaller county in.my youth aND murders happened then,rape is often by someone you date,or a friend. My sister waa raped by her bf,and a family friend.seldom ,or rare is it when a rapist is a stranger.

Please back up your claim of 0 crime by postimg the county data.

 

[godsquadgeek]

I am not going to debate what constitutes a "lie".

What is beyond debate - precisely because the words are so clear - is that Jesus is setting things this up so He will be seen as a transgressor. You can make all the arguments you like, but they do not change what Jesus actually said.

I think you do make jesus a transgressors with your interpretations, because you literally make him deceiver of others for the sake of a lie. And you know this.

 

[Drew]

I have explained to you numerous times that your interpretation of verse thirty seven is flawed and makes assumptions. For example: jesus deceiving others for the sake of a lie is sinful. And I believe jesus to be without sin.

Please just write out verse 37.

You can't, of course.

Because, it plainly shows why Jesus orders the swords - to fulfill a prophecy that He be seen a transgressor.

 

[Drew]

I think you do make jesus a transgressors with your interpretations, because you literally make him deceiver of others for the sake of a lie. And you know this.

What did Jesus do in the temple? He made a cord, overturned tables and drove people out.

If I did this at your church, you would judge me to be a sinner.

So why is Jesus not a sinner for doing this?

 

[Drew]

I think you do make jesus a transgressors with your interpretations, because you literally make him deceiver of others for the sake of a lie. And you know this.

Suppose someone says: "Go out and buy yourselves cheeseburgers, for I want people to think you are gluttons."

Using your reasoning, we have the freedom to do this with this statement:

Go out and buy yourselves cheeseburgers, for I want people to think you are gluttons.for you need food.

This little back and forth between us is really about the psychology of denial. It is unimaginable to me how you rationalize re-writing what Jesus says! Yes, Jesus is engaged in a form of trickery. And yes we normally think of trickery as sliding into the category of sin. But the fact that this challenges our thinking certainly does not give us the right to do what you are doing - editing the words of our Lord.

Plus, as I have shown, Jesus does pther things that appear to be sinful - the threatening and disruptive behaviour in the temple, for example.

 

[godsquadgeek]

Suppose someone says: "Go out and buy yourselves cheeseburgers, for I want people to think you are gluttons."

Using your reasoning, we have the freedom to do this with this statement:

Go out and buy yourselves cheeseburgers, for I want people to think you are gluttons.for you need food.

This little back and forth between us is really about the psychology of denial. It is unimaginable to me how you rationalize re-writing what Jesus says! Yes, Jesus is engaged in a form of trickery. And yes we normally think of trickery as sliding into the category of sin. But the fact that this challenges our thinking certainly does not give us the right to do what you are doing - editing the words of our Lord.

Plus, as I have shown, Jesus does pther things that appear to be sinful - the threatening and disruptive behaviour in the temple, for example.

That would be hamburger deception, for the sketch of a lie. I am unsure if you fully grasp what sin is.