Was Jesus against organized religion?

[francisdesales]

Jesus came once for all to eradicate temple observance in the temporal world.

Where does Jesus say He came to eradicate Temple observance in the temporal world??? Far from it! He came to UNITE temporal worship with heavenly worship. Clearly, you need to re-read Hebrews without your bias that forces you to conclude an "either/or" situation. We no longer have to worship in THE Temple at Jerusalem. But this does not mean that ALL temporal worship on earth is now defunct and worthless. This is an idiotic conclusion. The first Christians CONTINUED to worship in the Temple UNTIL they were booted out... Their worship CONTINUED outside of the Temple in their own temples. Now that the Mediator has come, has BECOME man, our worship can be united to heavenly worship, worship in the Temple made without human hands.

Again, yours is the common Protestant mistake of "replacement" theology. Christ came as a Mediator so that we could go WITH Him to the Father, not that He would replace us, take our place, etc, while we wallow here below. I have already discussed this - you agreed, and then, you show you continue to believe in the "replacement" theology. We are being divinized in Christ. He is not replacing us, covering us with a sheet while we remain a dirty mound of manure...

God commanded men to worship Him on earth for a variety of reasons, all good. God did NOT change His mind, making Jesus do it all for us while we no longer reap the benefits of divine worship given to God. No, the work of Jesus in the heavenly temple is united with our earthly worship - calling it "perfect".

I am trying to explain spiritual things to a carnal obstinate person.

You are not able to explain that Jesus was against organized religion, so you must revert to condescension. Proof positive on your "spirituality"...

Those who worship must do so in Spirit and truth. There is a real temple in heaven...this is where we are bold to enter. You cannot understand spiritual things. You are stuck in an "organized" time warp according to the flesh.

The real temple is in heaven, but it does not REPLACE it. Worship of God CONTINUES HERE ON EARTH!!! We worship God in church in Spirit and Truth BECAUSE the Spirit of Truth is there, in the flesh, in the Eucharistic elements and the Community of the Faithful... Christ is there, "bringing us into the Temple" in heaven through OUR liturgical actions.

Too bad you didn't learn that while a Catholic. Perhaps you never would have left and now your worship is much muted...

Acts 7:48-51 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

No one is resisting the Holy Spirit when we worship in temporal churches! Typical false dichotomies on matters you fail to understand...

2 Corinthians 6:16-17 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

As usual, you twist the Scriptures out of context. You know well that Paul is refering to pagan temples and meat sacrificed within them, nothing to do with Christian churches that offer up the "meat" of Jesus Christ to the Father. The very fact that the Christians worshiped in organized fashion in their house churches should clue you in on the fact that your postulations are ridiculous...

Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Of course the Church is built upon the Apostles and Christ! Where have we said otherwise? It is in the Church where we find Jesus Christ, among the saints and DIvine Liturgy.

I see you really are desperate to change the subject, with this conversation and the parallel one about whether Jesus is Lord even now. But is there a remote possibility that you can remain on topic and provide Scriptural evidence for the claim of the topic???

I must conclude that further avoidance of this must be equated with your admittance that you are, indeed, following yourself, rather than Jesus Christ, since you have offered nothing in the words of Jesus or His Apostles that would prove your point...

 

[francisdesales]

"...all who disagree with your {catholic} organization is just wrong".

Thanks for admitting that you are wrong... :biglol

You and Adullam are good at twisting Scriptures. Yes, I can twist what people say to suit my own agenda, as well...

My point about "the altar" is that Jesus Christ was NOT against organized religion. He told others to RETURN to the altar. He did NOT say "don't worry about the Temple or the altar, we will worship in our bedrooms with our chicken wings watching the big game..." "Just say sorry to yourself and go your merry way..."

Let's try not to put YOUR twist on what "altar" means, as if it is some esoteric and metaphorical place in your heart... Jesus is talking about a literal temple, a literal altar. EVERYONE in the audience knew that He was refering to a physical place where bloody sacrifices took place. Where ORGANIZED RELIGION offered sacrifice to God in heaven.

I will again state that this is evidence that Jesus Christ was FAR from against organized religion. He NEVER says anything negative against Judaism per sec, but against faulty PRACTICE, esp. by those who should know better, the religious leaders (who Jesus notes are not ALL bad. There are a number of Pharisees and Scribes whom He compliments).

As usual, you fail to understand that Jesus is condemning faulty movements of the heart, not human structures or organizations. The Bible clearly tells us that GOD put those "structures" in place"!!! If you care to read the Bible, for example, Numbers 16, those who hold YOUR particular set of beliefs are CONDEMNED by God!!!

Perhaps this is some way of avoiding the conclusion that men are the problem - put the blame on structure and organization. Perhaps it is the mistaken pride of heart that concludes that one can 'do it better'. I don't know. I DO know that Jesus does not make a statement that He was against organized religion - even organizing His OWN religious group, with its own beliefs and heirarchy, given the power to bind and loosen upon the community.

If you fail to see that, it makes you the obstinate one here...

 

[Adullam]

Jesus came once for all to eradicate temple observance in the temporal world.

Where does Jesus say He came to eradicate Temple observance in the temporal world??? Far from it! He came to UNITE temporal worship with heavenly worship. Clearly, you need to re-read Hebrews without your bias that forces you to conclude an "either/or" situation. We no longer have to worship in THE Temple at Jerusalem. But this does not mean that ALL temporal worship on earth is now defunct and worthless. This is an idiotic conclusion. The first Christians CONTINUED to worship in the Temple UNTIL they were booted out... Their worship CONTINUED outside of the Temple in their own temples. Now that the Mediator has come, has BECOME man, our worship can be united to heavenly worship, worship in the Temple made without human hands.

Jesus did not go to the temple to worship, but to preach and minister. He and His disciples were itinerant and spontaneous in their functioning. Nowhere did Jesus institute a rival religious institution. He called people out of them....as did the apostles. They were led by the Spirit. This is what the Lord showed His followers in action. Had He desired to bring us a new liturgy, He would have done so. He came to bring us life OUTSIDE OF THE CONFINES OF A RELIGIOUS MINDSET. You don't see that. Fine!


Temporal worship is for a temporal god. Those who worship the Father must now do so in Spirit and truth. You miss the future reference of the order of divine life in Christ. You miss the newness of life. You mis the new and living way. But opt for a new bondage of ecclesiastic gymnastics devised by man and call it sacred. Jesus de-sacrilized the world. He was not a religious guru that brought new rites and rituals. Those who have never tasted the new life in Christ just cannot fathom the radical departure that Christ brings to those who are born anew from above. Even the unregenerate Jews realized that one cannot form helps or aids to worship the invisible God...let alone icons and statuary. Did Jesus come to break the commandments and sanction idols and physical representations of heavenly things? Or did He come to take men even further along the path of truth? Should churches be a reflection of man's ways or shoulf thay reflect the love from above?

When one follows the life rather trying to fit that life into a premade box of man's proportions...an amazing thing happens. You will probably never know this.



Again, yours is the common Protestant mistake of "replacement" theology. Christ came as a Mediator so that we could go WITH Him to the Father, not that He would replace us, take our place, etc, while we wallow here below. I have already discussed this - you agreed, and then, you show you continue to believe in the "replacement" theology. We are being divinized in Christ. He is not replacing us, covering us with a sheet while we remain a dirty mound of manure...

God commanded men to worship Him on earth for a variety of reasons, all good. God did NOT change His mind, making Jesus do it all for us while we no longer reap the benefits of divine worship given to God. No, the work of Jesus in the heavenly temple is united with our earthly worship - calling it "perfect".

Where and when did He do that?

I am trying to explain spiritual things to a carnal obstinate person.

You are not able to explain that Jesus was against organized religion, so you must revert to condescension. Proof positive on your "spirituality"...

I apologize if you are truly neither carnal nor obstinate. Someone may have been using your name to post on this forum.

Those who worship must do so in Spirit and truth. There is a real temple in heaven...this is where we are bold to enter. You cannot understand spiritual things. You are stuck in an "organized" time warp according to the flesh.

The real temple is in heaven, but it does not REPLACE it. Worship of God CONTINUES HERE ON EARTH!!! We worship God in church in Spirit and Truth BECAUSE the Spirit of Truth is there, in the flesh, in the Eucharistic elements and the Community of the Faithful... Christ is there, "bringing us into the Temple" in heaven through OUR liturgical actions.

Too bad you didn't learn that while a Catholic. Perhaps you never would have left and now your worship is much muted...

There is a reason for temple being destroyed. Trying to bring it back is man's folly. As you cannot understand, the WAY we worship must change. Jesus has come! We must walk in an eternal way as the Master did. This is our worship. The temporal lip service you propose is not acceptable to the Lord.

Acts 7:48-51 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

No one is resisting the Holy Spirit when we worship in temporal churches! Typical false dichotomies on matters you fail to understand...

The time of temples is done. The church meets, eats and lives together as a light on a hill. They are a living testimony...a living temple...wherever they go. This is a permanent gathering of the regenerate and the seekers of Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:16-17 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

As usual, you twist the Scriptures out of context. You know well that Paul is refering to pagan temples and meat sacrificed within them, nothing to do with Christian churches that offer up the "meat" of Jesus Christ to the Father. The very fact that the Christians worshiped in organized fashion in their house churches should clue you in on the fact that your postulations are ridiculous...

I have merely posted verses...you are arguing with the Author of these.

Ephesians 2:19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.

Of course the Church is built upon the Apostles and Christ! Where have we said otherwise? It is in the Church where we find Jesus Christ, among the saints and DIvine Liturgy.

I see you really are desperate to change the subject, with this conversation and the parallel one about whether Jesus is Lord even now. But is there a remote possibility that you can remain on topic and provide Scriptural evidence for the claim of the topic???

I must conclude that further avoidance of this must be equated with your admittance that you are, indeed, following yourself, rather than Jesus Christ, since you have offered nothing in the words of Jesus or His Apostles that would prove your point...

There is nothing scriptural about modern church practice. As I have said....those who wish to be obedient to the gospel may see and pray for themselves so that the simplicity and beauty of the truth would dawn on them. A good place to start is to listen to the words of the bible. They are a faithful account. There is of course no divine liturgy......... but there is a divine life. Look into it. Priests daily offer sacrifices for sins that have already been atonened for in Christ. Even the Jews have stopped offering vain sacrifices. Perhaps the vatican has not received the fax yet????

 

[Drew]

I added the bold to this quoting of your post.

While Jesus lived...and even for a short while after His death and resurrection, sheep and goats continued to be sacrificed in the temple for sins. Yom kippur was celebrated for atonement for the sins of Israel....even after Jesus' heavenly sacrifice. But the times had changed. The temple was destroyed never to be rebuilt. God even saw to the eventual construction of a mosque so as to prevent a rebuilding of an obsolete mode of worship and atonement for sins. One can see the angel of death protecting the site against a return to temple worship. We who worship in the Spirit are now the temple of the living God. Wherever we are we bring the presence of God with us. There is no going back to the rigid formalism and shadows of the truth when the real deal has arrived.

I think you have misunderstood the significance of the destruction of the temple.

You seem to interpret the destruction of the temple as signifying a general end to a mode of worship involving an organized "human" infrastructure.

I am quite convinced - and can argue the point in detail - that the destruction of the temple had a much more specific meaning - it signified God's judgement on the nation of Israel and has nothing to do with a general repudiation of “organized religionâ€Â.

The temple was one of the key symbols of the Jewish nation. Jesus repeatedly announced judgement against the direction that Israel had taken - not least their movement to take the path of violence against Rome. When he clears the temple, He is symbolically acting out the coming judgement of God against the nation of Israel. That is why the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, not because God was overturning the concept of “organized religionâ€Â, but because God was executing judgement upon a nation that has abandoned its covenant role.

Now the destruction of the temple also serves to signify the fact that God now dwells in the hearts of His people directly through the Holy Spirit, and that his “shekina†presence is not confined to the temple building. I suspect you will agree with this. However, and this is crucial, this does not imply a rejection of organized religion – it is saying that God is doing a new thing, making new creations out of believers by giving them the Spirit. The time of God’s presence being limited to the temple is now over. But no one who is a member of an organized church, such as the RC church, is in any sense suggesting (or they should not be, if they are) that God’s presence is only found in the physical church building, as was indeed the case with the temple.

 

[Free]

There is nothing scriptural about modern church practice

There is nothing unscriptural about most of it either. There is absolutely nothing unscriptural about organized religion; Jesus wasn't against it and neither were any of the Apostles.

I am quite convinced - and can argue the point in detail - that the destruction of the temple had a much more specific meaning - it signified God's judgement on the nation of Israel and has nothing to do with a general repudiation of “organized religionâ€Â.

I agree that Scripture makes that point quite clear.

 

[Drew]

My point is that your interpretation of the Bible has to readjust because it is not reasonable with the reality.

You need to be a lot more specific. Tell me precisley where my view is in error. I still have to answer your "prince of peace" question, but there are many unrefuted arguments on the table as to why Jesus is presently lord.

Saying that my position is "not reasonable with the reality" hardly constitutes a serious response to a number of very detailed scriptural arguments that I have provided.

 

[Drew]

Heb 2:8 Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.

No. This text coheres perfectly well with the view that Jesus presently reigns. You seem to be unwilling or unable to draw a distinction between the following:

1. The fact of Jesus being already given authority over all things, death included, as per this text from Hebrews; and

2. The actual working out of that authority as will ultimately be manifested through the eventual defeat of death.

When a king is enthroned, all things are indeed subjected to him - they fall under his legitimate authority. Does that means that the king, in the very first day of his rule, fully exercises that authority in respect to everything? Of course not.

The kingship of Jesus began 2000 years ago. It is a work in progress. As Paul tells us, He must reign until all enemies are placed under his feet. This statement alone undermines your implied argument that since death is not presently defeated, Jesus cannot be presently reigning.

 

[Free]

It seems to me as though Heb 2:6-8 is about mankind; Jesus comes in at verse 9.

 

[Drew]

It seems to me as though Heb 2:6-8 is about mankind; Jesus comes in at verse 9.

You are correct. Glad you caught that. The text in question is indeed about mankind, not Jesus.

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus did not go to the temple to worship, but to preach and minister.

Jesus participated in the Jewish feasts, Jewish customs. Jesus ate Passover meals, etc.. He prayed at the Temple. Of course, He taught there, but NOT to convert people away from Judaism! Rather, so they practice the dicates of the LAW from the heart. He had a readily available audience of people who were legitimately seeking God.

He and His disciples were itinerant and spontaneous in their functioning.

The Bible tells us that Jesus continued to practice Judaism, much less hypocritically than the Scribes and Pharisees. He followed the commandments from the heart, not just the written commands (as in adultery)

Nowhere did Jesus institute a rival religious institution.

So giving the Apostles to "bind and loosen", a power given to the Pharisees, was not a "rival institution"???

He called people out of them....

He did no such thing. Ever. Is this all you can do? Lie or invent stuff out of thin air without any Biblical support? He called people out of poor behavior, not out of any institition. Again, you need to use some sort of Scriptural citations when you make such assertions...

Oh, I'm sorry, you aren't much interested in what the Bible actually says, thus, you rarely cite from it to prove your point.

I could accept this from an agnostic, but from someone who CLAIMS to be so spiritually advanced, it is quite hypocritical.

We are not Buddhists. Christians have NEVER been taught that we "put aside" the "simple" way, since NONE of us will ever move beyond the need of advancing in virtue, which begins with the way of the Beginner... Buddhists teach that we put aside rituals once we achieve the next step. That has never been the Christian way, since ALL men require Jesus Christ and His salvific work.

Perhaps you are Buddhist but don't realize it...

Temporal worship is for a temporal god.

Jewish worship was for a temporal god??? You really have gone off the deep end, haven't you. You haven't a clue what you are talking about, do you...

Those who worship the Father must now do so in Spirit and truth. You miss the future reference of the order of divine life in Christ. You miss the newness of life.

This newness of life SUPPLEMENTS our Liturgical worship. It doesn't replace it. Again, you are confused with your "Replacement" theology... Jesus came so that we could have life to the fullest. Divine worship has been given new impetus, the Holy Spirit. Now, our divine worship becomes perfect IN CHRIST. It doesn't go away!

There is a reason for temple being destroyed.

The Temple was destroyed because the Jews thought it was the ONLY place divine worship could take place. Haven't you read the Bible and the attitude of the Jews towards the Samaritans??? THEIR temple was "worthless", in the eyes of the Jews. Christ has broken down those walls, now we can worship in a temple built anywhere in the world. The Temple wasn't destroyed because God changed His mind and decided that ALL worship was worthless, since Jesus does it in the heavenly Temple. Again, the "replacement" theology that is plain wrong!!!

Trying to bring it back is man's folly.

Trying to get you to post a Scriptural verse that backs up your contention is folly...

As you cannot understand, the WAY we worship must change. Jesus has come! We must walk in an eternal way as the Master did. This is our worship. The temporal lip service you propose is not acceptable to the Lord.

You again provide false dichotomies...

Temporal worship ALWAYS leads to "lip service". A fallacy. Of course it can lead to lip service. And so can sitting in the desert in your self-righteousness. ANYTHING we do can end up being hypocritical. You might as well advocate sex outside of a marriage and call it "God's will", because some people cheat on their spouses...

Your problem is that you blame a structure or a method, rather than the person who fails to honor God. Any method can be abused.

The time of temples is done.

Scriptures, please. Christians CONTINUED to go to the Temple to pray and worship, and this was AFTER they had received the Spirit and met in their church houses. Again, you are mistaken...

The church meets, eats and lives together as a light on a hill.

And how can a church be a "light on a hill" if no one has heard about it but your drinking buddies??? You have already told us that you believe that the Church is NOT to go out and provide service to the world... So in what ways do you intend on being a "light on a hill", if you only serve yourself, bragging in your superior spirituality while condemning us "carnal" folk???

I have merely posted verses...you are arguing with the Author of these.

I am well aware WHY you posted them. No one posts verses without reason...

There is nothing scriptural about modern church practice.

You are indeed clueless. Praying to Jesus Christ is Scriptural, is it not??? Clearly, SOME "spirit" is working in you, but it is not God's...

There is nothing Scriptural about your entire theme. So yet again, I'll await some Scriptures that backs up your false philosophy...

 

[Free]

It seems to me as though Heb 2:6-8 is about mankind; Jesus comes in at verse 9.

You are correct. Glad you caught that. The text in question is indeed about mankind, not Jesus.

That wasn't directed toward you since you are correct in that it "coheres perfectly well with the view that Jesus presently reigns." I just wanted to make sure that it shouldn't be used as proof that Jesus was not presently reigning.

 

[shad]

My point is that your interpretation of the Bible has to readjust because it is not reasonable with the reality.

You need to be a lot more specific. Tell me precisley where my view is in error. I still have to answer your "prince of peace" question, but there are many unrefuted arguments on the table as to why Jesus is presently lord.

Saying that my position is "not reasonable with the reality" hardly constitutes a serious response to a number of very detailed scriptural arguments that I have provided.

I read the Bible to live and make sure it goes along with what the Bible says. Christianity is a way of life, not just for debate and studying. The prophesy should be reasonable with the reality too.

.

 

[Drew]

I read the Bible to live and make sure it goes along with what the Bible says. Christianity is a way of life, not just for debate and studying. The prophesy should be reasonable with the reality too.

I am happy to discuss these issues, but you need to substantially engage my arguments, not make broad, non-specific statements that I could just as easily deploy against your position.

 

[Adullam]

Jesus did not go to the temple to worship, but to preach and minister.

Jesus participated in the Jewish feasts, Jewish customs. Jesus ate Passover meals, etc.. He prayed at the Temple. Of course, He taught there, but NOT to convert people away from Judaism! Rather, so they practice the dicates of the LAW from the heart. He had a readily available audience of people who were legitimately seeking God.

He and His disciples were itinerant and spontaneous in their functioning.

The Bible tells us that Jesus continued to practice Judaism, much less hypocritically than the Scribes and Pharisees. He followed the commandments from the heart, not just the written commands (as in adultery)

Nowhere did Jesus institute a rival religious institution.

So giving the Apostles to "bind and loosen", a power given to the Pharisees, was not a "rival institution"???

He called people out of them....

He did no such thing. Ever. Is this all you can do? Lie or invent stuff out of thin air without any Biblical support? He called people out of poor behavior, not out of any institition. Again, you need to use some sort of Scriptural citations when you make such assertions...

Oh, I'm sorry, you aren't much interested in what the Bible actually says, thus, you rarely cite from it to prove your point.

I could accept this from an agnostic, but from someone who CLAIMS to be so spiritually advanced, it is quite hypocritical.

We are not Buddhists. Christians have NEVER been taught that we "put aside" the "simple" way, since NONE of us will ever move beyond the need of advancing in virtue, which begins with the way of the Beginner... Buddhists teach that we put aside rituals once we achieve the next step. That has never been the Christian way, since ALL men require Jesus Christ and His salvific work.

Perhaps you are Buddhist but don't realize it...

Temporal worship is for a temporal god.

Jewish worship was for a temporal god??? You really have gone off the deep end, haven't you. You haven't a clue what you are talking about, do you...

Those who worship the Father must now do so in Spirit and truth. You miss the future reference of the order of divine life in Christ. You miss the newness of life.

This newness of life SUPPLEMENTS our Liturgical worship. It doesn't replace it. Again, you are confused with your "Replacement" theology... Jesus came so that we could have life to the fullest. Divine worship has been given new impetus, the Holy Spirit. Now, our divine worship becomes perfect IN CHRIST. It doesn't go away!

There is a reason for temple being destroyed.

The Temple was destroyed because the Jews thought it was the ONLY place divine worship could take place. Haven't you read the Bible and the attitude of the Jews towards the Samaritans??? THEIR temple was "worthless", in the eyes of the Jews. Christ has broken down those walls, now we can worship in a temple built anywhere in the world. The Temple wasn't destroyed because God changed His mind and decided that ALL worship was worthless, since Jesus does it in the heavenly Temple. Again, the "replacement" theology that is plain wrong!!!

Trying to bring it back is man's folly.

Trying to get you to post a Scriptural verse that backs up your contention is folly...

As you cannot understand, the WAY we worship must change. Jesus has come! We must walk in an eternal way as the Master did. This is our worship. The temporal lip service you propose is not acceptable to the Lord.

You again provide false dichotomies...

Temporal worship ALWAYS leads to "lip service". A fallacy. Of course it can lead to lip service. And so can sitting in the desert in your self-righteousness. ANYTHING we do can end up being hypocritical. You might as well advocate sex outside of a marriage and call it "God's will", because some people cheat on their spouses...

Your problem is that you blame a structure or a method, rather than the person who fails to honor God. Any method can be abused.

The time of temples is done.

Scriptures, please. Christians CONTINUED to go to the Temple to pray and worship, and this was AFTER they had received the Spirit and met in their church houses. Again, you are mistaken...

The church meets, eats and lives together as a light on a hill.

And how can a church be a "light on a hill" if no one has heard about it but your drinking buddies??? You have already told us that you believe that the Church is NOT to go out and provide service to the world... So in what ways do you intend on being a "light on a hill", if you only serve yourself, bragging in your superior spirituality while condemning us "carnal" folk???

LOL This is a lie of course. Nice try though! How can hiding in a steeple house be more visible than a church on the move? I never said that the church does not provide service to the world. You are only providing religious services that do nothing in this world. Apart from your childish slander is there really anything to say? I have a question.... Are you a teenager? :yes

I repeat again for the willfully deaf....The goal of the church is to prepare for and declare the kingdom of God. You will no doubt not believe anything that supports this. Nevertheless, our ( the Christian) role in this is primary. We help those we encounter in daily things as well. This is incidental. We don't avoid them. We see through things not around them (as I have said before as well). However, we don't boast of temporal things as the hypoctites do. This is where your confusion lies. If we were hypocrites, you would accept us. We do not condemn carnal folk. Carnal folk condemn spiritual folk. That's why you can't resist the urge to slander and misquote.

I have merely posted verses...you are arguing with the Author of these.

I am well aware WHY you posted them. No one posts verses without reason...

There is nothing scriptural about modern church practice.

You are indeed clueless. Praying to Jesus Christ is Scriptural, is it not??? Clearly, SOME "spirit" is working in you, but it is not God's...

There is nothing Scriptural about your entire theme. So yet again, I'll await some Scriptures that backs up your false philosophy...

In your scheme the Jewish religion was never made obsolete. I have already posted scriptures that show that the imperfect has been replaced by the perfect. You believe as a Pharisee does...it is as if Jesus never came here in the flesh or He was merely a reformer of the Jewish religion. Why then are not Gentiles to convert to the Jewish religion as before Christ came? The opposite of logic is not reason!

Why did Paul count all things as dung that he might win Christ?

Which of the former things are kept when all things have been made new? What are we to scavenge?

Why must one lose one's life to save it? Why are spiritual things foolishness to the carnal man? Why is what I'm saying sound foolish to you?

An obstinate person will not understand the word. This is a blessing. Jesus marveled how God has hidden the truth from they that claim to be wise here...and revealed it to babes.


As you say...it was NOT the religious leaders that put Jesus to death. :crazy

The kingdom of God is seen in our human institutions. We have it right. Got mit uns! Those who see the kingdom as upside down...like a servant is greater than an educated person...are crazy! :nag

 

[Drew]

In your scheme the Jewish religion was never made obsolete.

If, repeat if, FDS has ever claimed that Jewish Christians are in any sense "distinct" in any sense from Gentile Christians, I would disagree with that.

But, and this is critical, you must understand that the "abolition" of the trappings of Jewish practice is not evidence that God has done away with "organized religion" in general. It is simply evidence of the end of the age wherein the Jews are a people set apart. I believe that age has come to an end, and I suspect that you do as well.

But, your reasoning seems to be like reasoning as follows:

1. Premise: The government has decided that the age of "red houses" has come to an end;
2. Therefore, nobody should live in a house.

The end of the temple and Torah system signify the end of Jewish distinctiveness in God's purposes, not the end of "organized religion".

 

[Adullam]

“Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told, Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right†Tarek Fatah

It has been said that God does not call the equiped, He equips the called. The whole nature of God's way is upside down to us (as carnal men). He chooses the foolish things to confound the wise. He chooses the base things to lower the proud. He chooses the contemptible to confound what we find acceptable. What is highly esteemed among men is abomination to God. If we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

It is a marvel that people completely miss this and opt for human systems, structures, and hierarchies, then call them blessed! Amazing! :help

 

[Drew]

Why did Paul count all things as dung that he might win Christ?

Which of the former things are kept when all things have been made new? What are we to scavenge?

I do not think you want to make this argument. It appears you are arguing thus:

1. All things are made new, old things are done away with;
2. Organized worship (i.e. the temple, etc) is an "old thing".
3. Therefore, organized worship is done away with.

Let's see where such a way of thinking leads:

1. All things are made new, old things are done away with;
2. The idea that God works in the affairs of man is an "old thing" (the old testament is full of this).
3. Therefore, God has stopped working in the affairs of man.

1. All things are made new, old things are done away with;
2. The Torah is an old thing.
3. Therefore, since the Torah is inseperable from the principles of loving God and neighbour (Jesus tells us this in Matthew 22), these principles are "old things" as well.
4. Therefore, we are not to love to God and neighbour anymore.

I trust no further examples are needed.

 

[shad]

I read the Bible to live and make sure it goes along with what the Bible says. Christianity is a way of life, not just for debate and studying. The prophesy should be reasonable with the reality too.

I am happy to discuss these issues, but you need to substantially engage my arguments, not make broad, non-specific statements that I could just as easily deploy against your position.

Ok, suit yourself. It seems to me you are just talking the talk just like most posters in the forums.

good day.

.

 

[Drew]

“Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told, Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right†Tarek Fatah

And, of course, this massively begs the question at issue by simply presuming that any and all practices and ideas that spring from organized religion are simply wrong.

“f we cannot see that God has rejected the world and it's systems we are most blind.

You cannot be serious. I could wear out my keypad providing Biblical evidence against such an assertion. Here are just 2 texts:

Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.

Is a governing authority a system of the world? Obviously yes - everyone knows Paul is talking about wordly governments. Are they rejected by God? No. They are established by God.

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

You are telling us that God has rejected "things on earth". Paul tells us the opposite - that through Christ, the things of the world are being reconciled.

Do you want more examples?

 

[Drew]

Ok, suit yourself. It seems to me you are just talking the talk just like most posters in the forums.

You know this is not a fair assessment. I have provided detailed arguments - addressing specific texts - Daniel 7, Psalm 2, Act 4.

What is your response? Do you explain how my take on these texts is incorrect? No you do not. Instead we get statements like this:

I read the Bible to live and make sure it goes along with what the Bible says. Christianity is a way of life, not just for debate and studying. The prophesy should be reasonable with the reality too

Please be fair - the record speaks for itself. I have presented numerous arguments that are understandable and appeal directly to the scriptures.

I am making clear arguments. So if I am wrong, why are you incapable of pointing out the errors in those arguments?