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Was Jesus against organized religion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dave Slayer
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Adullum said:
Religion sacrilizes the world and the things of this world....whether they be sacred cows, sacred buildings, sacred vestments, sacred rituals etc...

What I find sad, is when the label "Religion" takes the blunt of man's failure... Religion does not do any of the above mentioned. It is man who sacrileges the sacred.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

God is not against religion.. he promotes it. What God is against is when humanity exploits said religion...
 
Adullam said:
God does not reside in buildings made with hands.
No one is saying that God resides in buildings. But that fact is in no way evidence that God is against organized religion.

Adullam said:
You defeat your own argument here by questioning the bible.
The transcript of this thread shows otherwise - I (and others) have repeatedly and extensively appealed to the scriputres.

Adullam said:
In your scheme nothing has changed on the one hand...but the enemy is still defeated!
Do not misrepresent. If you actually read my posts, you will know that I have said nothing akin to "nothing has changed".
 
Drew said:
Adullam said:
Now unless you live in a fantasy world, you must realize that we are not living in a time where Jesus is reigning with saints (in glorified bodies) from Jerusalem. This means that the devil's time has not yet been completed. God is testing those of us in our resistance to the enemy. We can still be enemies of the cross by following the devil and his ways. We are being watched. You are failing here in that you are preaching peace in the outer world. You have no idea of reality either spiritual or temporal if you don't see that. Can you not read Revelation for yourself? Must I post the whole book here?
Please feel free to actually make arguments, and not just state a position.

I have already posted multiple arguments that show that Jesus is a presently reigning King. We do not, of course, yet have glorified bodies, but the Bible does not teach that Jesus cannot reign till we do.

I have provided an argument from Acts 4 and Psalm 2. What is your response?

I have provided an argument from Mark 14 and Daniel 7. You tried to argue that the "reign" was not over the temporal world, I then showed that it was. What is your response?

I will provide other arguments shortly as to why we should understand that Jesus presently reigns.


Be careful of offering a vain lip service that has no challenge on your own life. Is Jesus presently reigning in you? Do you still sin? Anyone who declares that Jesus is presently reigning at least in them...should show forth a holy life. That is the testimony of the kingship of Jesus. Lip service is of zero value.

Again Jesus does not yet force His rulership on anyone. That time will come. He will rule this world with a rod of iron! How many are presently ruled by Christ? How many continue to ignore His ownership of all things?
 
StoveBolts said:
Adullum said:
Religion sacrilizes the world and the things of this world....whether they be sacred cows, sacred buildings, sacred vestments, sacred rituals etc...

What I find sad, is when the label "Religion" takes the blunt of man's failure... Religion does not do any of the above mentioned. It is man who sacrileges the sacred.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their misfortune and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

God is not against religion.. he promotes it. What God is against is when humanity exploits said religion...


Are Hindus saved through obedience to their religious beliefs ....who humbly obey the dictates through their own good consciences created by God?

Are Jews saved by being faithful to the commandments given directly to Moses by God?
 
Adullam said:
However Jesus came to desacrilize the world.
No. Jesus came to reclaim the world. The "sacred" vs "non-sacred" distinction is not a biblical one. Its all part of God's world, so its all "sacred".

Adullam said:
We have direct access to God in the way of Christ with the new divine birth in the Spirit.
I agree. Now please explain why it is you think this means that there should be no "organized religion"? Why is it that the fact that we have the Spirit means that we should not organize ourselves into communities of believers, with all the necessary "organizational" accompaniments this requires? Are you promoting a form of "Christian anarchy"? How can believers be an effective community without structure and organization?

I am very interested in your answer.
 
Adullam said:
Be careful of offering a vain lip service that has no challenge on your own life. Is Jesus presently reigning in you? Do you still sin? Anyone who declares that Jesus is presently reigning at least in them...should show forth a holy life.
This is not how kingship actually works. As I posted to Cornelius, it is not correct to think that Jesus cannot be reigning because there is still evil and death in the world.

Things instead work this way: A king is enthroned and then the work of implementing the kingdom begins. It is not accomplished instantly.

Look at Pres. Obama. He was "enthroned" in January 2009. Does that mean that instantly all his agenda was accomplished? Of course not.

Your entire position rests on an incorrect view of the nature of kingship. When Bar KochBa was enthroned as the Jewish king, they minted a coin with the year "1" on it. Why? Because the Jews were declaring that his reign, while fully initiated, was a project.
 
Drew said:
Adullam said:
Be careful of offering a vain lip service that has no challenge on your own life. Is Jesus presently reigning in you? Do you still sin? Anyone who declares that Jesus is presently reigning at least in them...should show forth a holy life.
This is not how kingship actually works. As I posted to Cornelius, it is not correct to think that Jesus cannot be reigning because there is still evil and death in the world.

Things instead work this way: A king is enthroned and then the work of implementing the kingdom begins. It is not accomplished instantly.

LOL Do you see how you are now arguing my point!

Look at Pres. Obama. He was "enthroned" in January 2009. Does that mean that instantly all his agenda was accomplished? Of course not.

Your entire position rests on an incorrect view of the nature of kingship. When Bar KochBa was enthroned as the Jewish king, they minted a coin with the year "1" on it. Why? Because the Jews were declaring that his reign, while fully initiated, was a project.

You have shifted poles here! You are confusing our arguments. But I will say yes! We agree! The kingship of Christ is a heavenly reality waiting to be revealed to the world at the appointed time. Behold He comes quickly!
 
Adullam said:
You have shifted poles here! You are confusing our arguments.
No I have not. I think you are projecting your temporal vs non-temporal dualism onto me. I believe I have been consistent throughout - Jesus is presently enthroned as King of the temporal order.
 
Drew said:
Adullam said:
You have shifted poles here! You are confusing our arguments.
No I have not. I think you are projecting your temporal vs non-temporal dualism onto me. I believe I have been consistent throughout - Jesus is presently enthroned as King of the temporal order.


Where is His office? We'll visit His office together if you wish. :lol
 
Adullam said:
Where is His office? We'll visit His office together if you wish. :lol
Are you suggesting that since Jesus is not "here" that He cannot be king?

I suggest that a study of the nature of kingship in the time the New Testament was written may be helpful. Ceasar was considered king of far and distant lands, even ones He never visited. The writers of the New Testament lived and breathed in such a world - they would have no problem with the concept of a reigning king who was not "immediately" present to them.
 
Drew said:
Adullam said:
Where is His office? We'll visit His office together if you wish. :lol
Are you suggesting that since Jesus is not "here" that He cannot be king?

I suggest that a study of the nature of kingship in the time the New Testament was written may be helpful. Ceasar was considered king of far and distant lands, even ones He never visited. The writers of the New Testament lived and breathed in such a world - they would have no problem with the concept of a reigning king who was not "immediately" present to them.


Are you speaking from a Greek dichotome here???? :lol

The world is not obeying Jesus. The world does not recognize Jesus as king. Jesus has not taken up His crown yet! When He returns He will do that. A king in exile does not rule over his subjects except those that be his servants. A brief study of history will reveal that a king in exile does not presently rule. The temporal ruler rules.

This reminds me of the story of Robin Hood...where while the king was away the evil Sheriff of Nottingham controlled the land. Of course this represents the devil who squats over the people and fools them or intimidates them into obedience. Not so the merry men! :-) They suffered for their allegiance to the rightful king...in this case Richard "Coeur de Lion." The Sheriff's men did not follow the king...they were to be punished on his return. They looked for advancement with the usurper of kingly authority. So it is with Christ's return and the overthrowing of those who are presently in bed with the temporal authorities and powers. We must come out of Babylon so as not to share in the wrath against it. We are to be loyal to our King and remain separate....even as Robin Hood and His merry men! When the King returns we shall be properly rewarded according to our faith and faithfulness! :amen

Long live the KIng!
 
Adullam said:
The world is not obeying Jesus. The world does not recognize Jesus as king.
So what? He is still king.

Adullam said:
Jesus has not taken up His crown yet!
I find it deeply interesting that you are happy to say this even though you have been presented with numerous scriptural arguments to the contrary - arguments that you basically simply ignore.

This is not an opinion - it is a fact. The transcript of this thread shows this to be the case.

Do you not think the objective reader will not find that curious?
 
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."
13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered. 16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.


Clearly, the people understand that a claim to kingship by Jesus establishes Jesus as a replacement for Caesar as king of this present world. Now, the crowd has no doubt been coached to call for Jesus' curifixion. But, and this is the key point, the rhetoric they use clearly is this: "you need to crucify this man since he is setting himself as a replacement king for Caesar". This rhetoric would not work if the kingship claim were not a claim about this present world.

This last point is so crucial, it warrants further elaboration. Obviously the people could have been, and obviously were coached, to basically say "crucify this Jesus who claims to be a king, we want Ceasar as our king". This appeal from the crowd only works if a claim to be a "king" actually is a claim to challenge Caesar. And did Jesus agree that He was a King? From the previous chapter:

Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a kingâ€Â.

There we have it - from Jesus' own lips, a claim of kingship.

Look at this way. We know that Jesus claims to be a king. It would seem that the only way to rescue the view that he is not a present king over the institutions of this world is to make either of the following arguments:

1. He is understood as intending to assume his kingship in the distant future (second coming); and / or

2. He is understood as asserting that His present "kingdom", i.e. at the time He claims to be a king in front of Pilate, does not include "the real world" but rather some hidden spiritual realm.

Neither of these alternatives is very attractive. Now suppose (1) is true. Then the chants of the crowd make no sense at all. Why would the crowd choose Caesar over Jesus if the general understanding was that He was not presently claiming to be King? What kind of a challenge is that to Ceasar's authority? Now suppose (2) is true. Again, how is that a challenge to Caesar? If Jesus was understood to be claiming kingship over some mysterious inner world, how does that not leave Caesar unchallenged?

It is important to see the implications here. The crowds chant that "Ceasar, not Jesus is our King" really only achieve their purpose if it was generally understood that Jesus' self-stated kingship was indeed a claim to kingship over the domain that Ceaser presently ruled over. The fact that the crowd was "coached" does not change this crucial fact: the nature of what they chanted - Jesus is not our king, Caesar is - shows that it was generally understood what a claim to kingship entailed, that is, a challenge to Ceasar as king of this present world.
 
Drew said:
12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."
13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered. 16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.


Clearly, the people understand that a claim to kingship by Jesus establishes Jesus as a replacement for Caesar as king of this present world. Now, the crowd has no doubt been coached to call for Jesus' curifixion. But, and this is the key point, the rhetoric they use clearly is this: "you need to crucify this man since he is setting himself as a replacement king for Caesar". This rhetoric would not work if the kingship claim were not a claim about this present world.

This last point is so crucial, it warrants further elaboration. Obviously the people could have been, and obviously were coached, to basically say "crucify this Jesus who claims to be a king, we want Ceasar as our king". This appeal from the crowd only works if a claim to be a "king" actually is a claim to challenge Caesar. And did Jesus agree that He was a King? From the previous chapter:

Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a kingâ€Â.

There we have it - from Jesus' own lips, a claim of kingship.

Look at this way. We know that Jesus claims to be a king. It would seem that the only way to rescue the view that he is not a present king over the institutions of this world is to make either of the following arguments:

1. He is understood as intending to assume his kingship in the distant future (second coming); and / or

2. He is understood as asserting that His present "kingdom", i.e. at the time He claims to be a king in front of Pilate, does not include "the real world" but rather some hidden spiritual realm.

Neither of these alternatives is very attractive. Now suppose (1) is true. Then the chants of the crowd make no sense at all. Why would the crowd choose Caesar over Jesus if the general understanding was that He was not presently claiming to be King? What kind of a challenge is that to Ceasar's authority? Now suppose (2) is true. Again, how is that a challenge to Caesar? If Jesus was understood to be claiming kingship over some mysterious inner world, how does that not leave Caesar unchallenged?

It is important to see the implications here. The crowds chant that "Ceasar, not Jesus is our King" really only achieve their purpose if it was generally understood that Jesus' self-stated kingship was indeed a claim to kingship over the domain that Ceaser presently ruled over. The fact that the crowd was "coached" does not change this crucial fact: the nature of what they chanted - Jesus is not our king, Caesar is - shows that it was generally understood what a claim to kingship entailed, that is, a challenge to Ceasar as king of this present world.

For the third and final time I will say...with God things first take place in the heavenly reality...and then the earthly.

Jesus ruled over the demons in the spiritual realm. Jesus commanded wind and wave. Pilate could not do this. He only received power from Caesar on sufference from God. Jesus received all authority to rule in both realms. The first manifestation is spiritual. With God, things happen in heaven first. The next, the entrance of heavenly reality into this world.... will soon break into our history. Jesus is the true King of the this world. Those who presently submit to this rule in the Spirit will receive a reward. Those who ignore His rule will be treated as rebels.

When Jesus comes to receive His earthly kingdom, He will rule with a rod of iron. This will be imposed on all men....not just believers. Jesus' rule will be made manifest. He will take up His crown! The saints will rule with Him. Now neither the saints nor the King are in actual temporal positions of power. At this stage the sons of God have not been revealed. No one can yet claim to be ruling and reigning with Christ. This is yet a future event although it is already known in heaven whom these will be. On earth as it is in heaven!

Jesus will not rule until His government is ready. That government is the saints. He will not rule without them. He is waiting for us! Let us hasten the return of Christ by being conformed to Him. :amen
 
Adullam said:
For the third and final time I will say...with God things first take place in the heavenly reality...and then the earthly.
Where is the actual scriptural case for this? You are merely making a statement.

And, as always, you ignore my arguments which undermine your position. Do you feel no responsiblity to engage my arguments?

Adullam said:
Jesus received all authority to rule in both realms. The first manifestation is spiritual.
I agree with the first statement, but Jesus' own words show your second statement is incorrect:

18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age

As you say, Jesus has authority in heaven and earth. But note what Jesus actually says - all authority in heaven and on earth has already been given to him.

I am actually fascinated at how you can post what you just posted - that the heavenly rule comes first and then the earthly, when the clear sense of what Jesus says shows that this is not so.

Can you explain how we can possibly interpret what Jesus actually says here in a way that has Jesus' authority over the earth delayed?
 
Let's be clear. The following arguments have been put forward that Jesus presently reigns, none of which have been successfully countered:

1. Acts 4 and its quotation from Psalm 2 - shows Jesus presently reigns over the temporal domain;

2. Mark 14 and allusion to Daniel 7 - Jesus quotes from Daniel and tells Caiaphus that He (Jesus) will be enthroned in Caiaphus' lifetime;

3. 1 Corinthians 15 - Jesus must reign until all enemies are under his feet, with only the last enemy being death;

4. Paul's appeal to a kingdom model that draws on Old Testament precedent of rulers governing this present world;

5. Argument about the "no king but Ceasar" rhetoric must mean that Jesus was understood as claiming to be a king that replaces Ceasar as lord of this world;

6. Matthew 28, where Jesus clearly claims to have already been given authority of the earth.

What do we get in response? Entirely unsubstantiated, undefended assertions about a duality of "reign in the heavenly domain" and "reign in the earthly domain", agumented by unsubstantiated, undefended assertions that the former comes first, and the latter comes second.
 
Adullam said:
Jesus will not rule until His government is ready. That government is the saints. He will not rule without them. He is waiting for us! Let us hasten the return of Christ by being conformed to Him. :amen

Wow. I thought some time away would give you an opportunity to find one citation from Scriptures that speak of Christ doing away with organized religions, but here we find your gnostic dualism instead. This is the direction of your rigorism, and that's the inevitable course for those who misread the Sacred Scriptures without the mind of the Church that wrote those Scriptures, inspired by God.

God rules over us, His Kingdom has already broken into the world...
 
francisdesales said:
Adullam said:
Jesus will not rule until His government is ready. That government is the saints. He will not rule without them. He is waiting for us! Let us hasten the return of Christ by being conformed to Him. :amen

Wow. I thought some time away would give you an opportunity to find one citation from Scriptures that speak of Christ doing away with organized religions, but here we find your gnostic dualism instead. This is the direction of your rigorism, and that's the inevitable course for those who misread the Sacred Scriptures without the mind of the Church that wrote those Scriptures, inspired by God.

God rules over us, His Kingdom has already broken into the world...


The mind of Christ is infinitely better! Jesus Christ is present in the gathering of disciples who are yielded to the Holy Spirit. These are very few...yet the presence is there. At the sound of the last trump the kingdoms of the earth will be brought under the direct rule of Christ and His saints. A new kingdom era will be established...the reign of the seventh day. Then the new age will be ushered in.

"Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."
 
Adullam said:
"Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."
This has already happened. Jesus already reigns.

Let's be clear:

1. Myself and others have presented numerous scriptures and associated arguments showing that the kingdom is already here.

2. You have not directly engaged these arguments. How could you do so without having to abandon your position, since those arguments are correct and undermine your position?

3. You present texts about what you believe to place the inbreaking of the kingdom in the future.

4. And, of course, you do not actually defend why we must see those texts as not aleady fulfilled.
 
"Why do ye also transgress the Commandment of God by your tradition? ... But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:3,9 KJV)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:8-9 KJV)


"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Colossians 2:16-22 KJV)

"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" (Galatians 4:3-9 KJV)
 
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