Was Jesus against organized religion?

[Adullam]

"Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."

This has already happened. Jesus already reigns.

Let's be clear:

1. Myself and others have presented numerous scriptures and associated arguments showing that the kingdom is already here.

2. You have not directly engaged these arguments. How could you do so without having to abandon your position, since those arguments are correct and undermine your position?

3. You present texts about what you believe to place the inbreaking of the kingdom in the future.

4. And, of course, you do not actually defend why we must see those texts as not aleady fulfilled.

I already asked you to take me to the physical office of Jesus Christ. You eschew dualism? You believe in concrete reality? Prove it and please stop your double speak. It is very tiring. :crazy

 

[Adullam]

However Jesus came to desacrilize the world.

No. Jesus came to reclaim the world. The "sacred" vs "non-sacred" distinction is not a biblical one. Its all part of God's world, so its all "sacred".

We have direct access to God in the way of Christ with the new divine birth in the Spirit.

I agree. Now please explain why it is you think this means that there should be no "organized religion"? Why is it that the fact that we have the Spirit means that we should not organize ourselves into communities of believers, with all the necessary "organizational" accompaniments this requires? Are you promoting a form of "Christian anarchy"? How can believers be an effective community without structure and organization?

I am very interested in your answer.

I believe I missed this earlier post.

The church is quite unlike the world at large. The systems that work in the world do not work where the kingdom of God is being promoted. You may have heard it said the the greatest shall be the servant. This is opposite to the world. So there should be an astounding difference.

A Christian community is not an organization. It is not registered as a corporation like a business. There is no buying or selling. There are no professionals nor mercenaries. The only education that is respected there is what comes from experience in the intimacy with the Lord. The Christian community has it's own type of organizing...it's own order. If there is a need someone fills it according to his faith...if there are no means, prayer is offered and God fills it. The direction and leadership must be heavenly in origin. Otherwise it would be a "would-be" Christian entity. There is order. This is to keep the enemy out. Overseers are like watchmen that are not ignorant of the devil's guises and disguises. They seek for the Lord's direction. They are known by their godly comportment and brokenness and contriteness before God and men.

 

[francisdesales]

The mind of Christ is infinitely better! Jesus Christ is present in the gathering of disciples who are yielded to the Holy Spirit.

More cliches that tell me nothing. YOU are a disciple "yielding" to the Spirit??????

The Body of Christ is not separate from the Mind of Christ. That goes without saying. However, the Body of Christ is a visible thing. Christ became incarnate and His presence continues in a visible Body, the Church. We know where we can find the Church and its components spread throughout the world, IN the world. Those who remove themselves from the community are not part of the community.

Merely saying "Christ is present in the gathering of disciples" is begging the question.

Would Paul have considered a person of your mindset part of the Church? When he wrote letters to communities, was he not writing to PARTICULAR people who had gathered together? Did he write to "people of good will", or Pauline Christians? Was Paul writing to any "believer" who separated themselves from the community but CLAIMED they were "yielding to the Spirit"? Which "spirit" are you actually yielding to when you separate yourself from the Institution that Christ formed?

Christ formed a community, not only a "way of life", like Confucius, that one could do under their own power and desire. This is why your entire mindset fails - it doesn't take into account what ACTUALLY is in Scriptures. This is why you have not yet provided any Scriptures to back up your claims, and prefer, rather, to tell me how spiritually mature you are and give me lectures.

These are very few...yet the presence is there.

Yes, you have made it clear you have made God in your image... This seems to be a 21st century mindset that incorrectly takes our inherent desire to seek God and change it into something of our own choosing so we can equate our thoughts with "God's thoughts". Thus, what you do is actually God doing it... This is not "yielding to the Spirit", this is just projecting.

At the sound of the last trump the kingdoms of the earth will be brought under the direct rule of Christ and His saints.

The Kingdom is already here, but not completely established yet...

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:7-17

Clearly, "Paul" makes it known that Christ's reign has already begun, but not completed yet. His reign begins in those who submit to the Lord and HIS ways. It is through HIM that all things are - and He has sanctified us. His Kingdom has already begun and He has already broken the power of death, delivering us from the bondage of sin. Yes, His Kingdom has begun and it has already broken into the world, since we have been sanctified, been freed from bondage, and are now brothers of Christ.

If the Kingdom was ONLY to come at the end of time, we would still be under the auspice of the devil. We would still be under the bondage of sin. We are not, when we follow Christ, so yet again, you are confused on what the Scriptures say.

And of course, you continue to ignore that you have done nothing to address "was Jesus against organized religions" with any sort of evidence from Scriptures...

 

[Adullam]

The mind of Christ is infinitely better! Jesus Christ is present in the gathering of disciples who are yielded to the Holy Spirit.

More cliches that tell me nothing. YOU are a disciple "yielding" to the Spirit??????

There is no other way to be a disciple of Christ.

The Body of Christ is not separate from the Mind of Christ. That goes without saying. However, the Body of Christ is a visible thing. Christ became incarnate and His presence continues in a visible Body, the Church. We know where we can find the Church and its components spread throughout the world, IN the world. Those who remove themselves from the community are not part of the community.

Amen!

Merely saying "Christ is present in the gathering of disciples" is begging the question.

Would Paul have considered a person of your mindset part of the Church? When he wrote letters to communities, was he not writing to PARTICULAR people who had gathered together? Did he write to "people of good will", or Pauline Christians? Was Paul writing to any "believer" who separated themselves from the community but CLAIMED they were "yielding to the Spirit"? Which "spirit" are you actually yielding to when you separate yourself from the Institution that Christ formed?

Christian communities are very tangible, having households of faith that feed, clothe, and encourage those of the household of God. They are as an oasis in the desert, practicing hospitality to the sojourner. So these communities are far more real and tangible than a steeple house whose doors are closed all week except for self-serving services to collect money to pay for empty buildings and empty promises. Couldn't these shrines to vanity be used to house the homeless, help the downtrodden etc....?

Jesus Christ did not come to create a new temporal religion with ceremonies, pomp, and an eclesiastical hierarchy. He came to abolish these not to form them. The RCC along with the other religious conglomorates are a continuation of the order of the Pharisees...all polish and pomp on the outside...and death on the inside. Why would Jesus encourage what He claimed was cursed?

Christ formed a community, not only a "way of life", like Confucius, that one could do under their own power and desire. This is why your entire mindset fails - it doesn't take into account what ACTUALLY is in Scriptures. This is why you have not yet provided any Scriptures to back up your claims, and prefer, rather, to tell me how spiritually mature you are and give me lectures.

Temporal institutional churches like the RCC are operating under their own power and desire. Like any other human organization. One does not build a shrine to the truth...one learns to walk in the truth. We are the shrine...a living shrine that testifies to a living way. A steeplehouse is no more a testimony than a tombstone. It is empty. Just like the Pharisees...full of dead men's bones. (the bones of saints no doubt)

Christianity is a Way of true holiness. One must be born from above to enter the Way. It is, yes a way of life....actually the Way to life. The Way also consists of the gathering of disciples for the purpose of growth and a testimony to the world. We cannot grow into the perfection of selfless love unless we are constantly with the brethren, sharing a common life together. The sheer selfishness of a private life makes discipleship nigh impossible. One must leave all things behind to follow Christ. So the church is the new family for the follower of Christ. Entire households are found within the fold. These households form the basis for the edah of Christ...the divine community on earth.

These are very few...yet the presence is there.

Yes, you have made it clear you have made God in your image... This seems to be a 21st century mindset that incorrectly takes our inherent desire to seek God and change it into something of our own choosing so we can equate our thoughts with "God's thoughts". Thus, what you do is actually God doing it... This is not "yielding to the Spirit", this is just projecting.

This is an agnostic viewpoint!

At the sound of the last trump the kingdoms of the earth will be brought under the direct rule of Christ and His saints.

The Kingdom is already here, but not completely established yet...

Temporizing rhetoric that means absolutely whatever you want it to mean...see your own argument above for a clue as to what you are projecting onto me.

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:7-17

Clearly, "Paul" makes it known that Christ's reign has already begun, but not completed yet. His reign begins in those who submit to the Lord and HIS ways. It is through HIM that all things are - and He has sanctified us. His Kingdom has already begun and He has already broken the power of death, delivering us from the bondage of sin. Yes, His Kingdom has begun and it has already broken into the world, since we have been sanctified, been freed from bondage, and are now brothers of Christ.

Like following Confucius? (you are reversing your logic here and ) You actually don't believe this. You don't believe in freedom from bondage. You ridicule me as a rigorist for believing the word of the Lord. You believe baptism into a particular sect is what saves you. This is common of all cults that have strayed from the simplicity which is in Christ.

If the Kingdom was ONLY to come at the end of time, we would still be under the auspice of the devil. We would still be under the bondage of sin. We are not, when we follow Christ, so yet again, you are confused on what the Scriptures say.

Again your argument is off the wall. There is no consistency in what you say. Do you still sin?

And of course, you continue to ignore that you have done nothing to address "was Jesus against organized religions" with any sort of evidence from Scriptures...

You are confusing what men do to try to please Jesus and what Jesus actually taught and did! Which religion did Jesus organize? Did Jesus die for organized religion? Or was He condemned by it?

 

[Drew]

Clearly, "Paul" makes it known that Christ's reign has already begun, but not completed yet. His reign begins in those who submit to the Lord and HIS ways. It is through HIM that all things are - and He has sanctified us. His Kingdom has already begun and He has already broken the power of death, delivering us from the bondage of sin. Yes, His Kingdom has begun and it has already broken into the world, since we have been sanctified, been freed from bondage, and are now brothers of Christ.

If the Kingdom was ONLY to come at the end of time, we would still be under the auspice of the devil. We would still be under the bondage of sin. We are not, when we follow Christ, so yet again, you are confused on what the Scriptures say.

And of course, you continue to ignore that you have done nothing to address "was Jesus against organized religions" with any sort of evidence from Scriptures...

You are correct.

Adullam has a number of challenges. First, he needs to successfully engage the many texts that show that the kingdom has already broken in. Now if, for whatever reason, he elects to not engage those texts, another strategy is available to him: Show the fundamental incoherence of asserting that Jesus presently reigns in light of the continued presence of death and sin. And this is the path that Adullam has indeed taken.

The problem, of course, is that there are clear and successful arguments as to why we can have Jesus reigning even in such a state of affairs.

 

[francisdesales]

YOU are a disciple "yielding" to the Spirit??????

There is no other way to be a disciple of Christ.

Yielding to THE Holy Spirit, not A spirit, your own...

I have yet to see anything in the Scriptures that speak of one baptizing THEMSELVES, for example. God has established such a sacrament for entrance into the Church. Again, we are speaking of organized structures, such things that curl the toes of the 'church of one' people...

Would Paul have considered a person of your mindset part of the Church? When he wrote letters to communities, was he not writing to PARTICULAR people who had gathered together? Did he write to "people of good will", or Pauline Christians? Was Paul writing to any "believer" who separated themselves from the community but CLAIMED they were "yielding to the Spirit"? Which "spirit" are you actually yielding to when you separate yourself from the Institution that Christ formed?

Christian communities are very tangible, having households of faith that feed, clothe, and encourage those of the household of God. They are as an oasis in the desert, practicing hospitality to the sojourner. So these communities are far more real and tangible than a steeple house whose doors are closed all week except for self-serving services to collect money to pay for empty buildings and empty promises. Couldn't these shrines to vanity be used to house the homeless, help the downtrodden etc....?

Something is not a "shrine of vanity" because of its architecture! That sounds like something a ten year old would come up with. It is the organization itself, whether 20 people or 2000 people... Your efforts to cast hate upon something because it is "organized" is senseless... There are individuals in society that are not superior in morals or behavior to a the society at large. Having a smaller "communion" does not guarantee fidelity to the Sacred Scriptures OR the life that Christ desires us to live. Thus, again, your argument against ORGANIZATIONS is wrong-headed.

Jesus Christ did not come to create a new temporal religion with ceremonies, pomp, and an eclesiastical hierarchy. He came to abolish these not to form them.

Merely stating it is pointless. You have had ample opportunity to present your evidence, but I still do not see one verse that backs up your incorrect opinions... Christ came to provide CORRECTIVE to "religious practices". He did not condemn the Scribes and Pharisees for BEING Scribes and Pharisees!!! Yet again, you are incorrect and misread the Scriptures through the eyes of your own "spirit", rather than God's Spirit.

Christianity is a Way of true holiness.

No, it is not. You do not even know the essence of Christianity, do you...

You are placing Christianity into the category of just another "moral teaching". You propose the typical 21st century dribble that TRIES to eliminate the mystery from Christianity by making it MERELY a "way of holiness". It is MUCH more than that. It is MUCH more than "being loving" to your neighbor. All non Christian religions teach outward love to their fellow man as a way of life. Christianity is about Jesus Christ and His SPECIFIC message, which goes WAY beyond "being nice to other people"...

We cannot grow into the perfection of selfless love unless we are constantly with the brethren...

And this is done within my community, as well, so this is just another rant that doesn't apply to the topic...

Yes, you have made it clear you have made God in your image... This seems to be a 21st century mindset that incorrectly takes our inherent desire to seek God and change it into something of our own choosing so we can equate our thoughts with "God's thoughts". Thus, what you do is actually God doing it... This is not "yielding to the Spirit", this is just projecting.

This is an agnostic viewpoint!

No, this is the reality viewpoint that is backed by the Scriptures in its entirety. We are taught to discern, not just believe any false prophet that says "Lord, Lord"... and presents themselves as "holier than thou". By your fruits, you are known - and your fruits make you out to be something that differs from your cliches and preaching.

YOUR viewpoint is "agnostic" in that it cuts out PART of the Bible's dictates and establishment OF organized religion, Judaism in the OT and Christianity in the NT. You chose not to believe that the Bible is God's Word, so you pick and choose what sounds good and ignore the rest.

The Kingdom is already here, but not completely established yet...

Temporizing rhetoric that means absolutely whatever you want it to mean...see your own argument above for a clue as to what you are projecting onto me.

I have quoted Scriptures, which is more than you have provided... The Kingdom of God includes being freed from the bondage of sin. Has that freedom entered into the world or not? You cannot ignore it, the Kingdom is present. It is here. Perhaps you are just not aware that you have been freed from bondage yet...?

Clearly, "Paul" makes it known that Christ's reign has already begun, but not completed yet. His reign begins in those who submit to the Lord and HIS ways. It is through HIM that all things are - and He has sanctified us. His Kingdom has already begun and He has already broken the power of death, delivering us from the bondage of sin. Yes, His Kingdom has begun and it has already broken into the world, since we have been sanctified, been freed from bondage, and are now brothers of Christ.

Like following Confucius? (you are reversing your logic here and ) You actually don't believe this. You don't believe in freedom from bondage.

Sure I do. The Kingdom of God has broken into the world and I no longer have to be enslaved by the ways of the world. I CAN turn to Christ and realize my joy in Him, rather than of things in the world, being enslaved by things that can become corrupted. Have I FULLY realized that? Have I become sinless? No, but it doesn't follow that I don't believe in freedom from bondage... This is just your typical "either/or" argument that, yet again, misunderstands what Christianity includes a JOURNEY of conversion to Christ.

You ridicule me as a rigorist for believing the word of the Lord.

I don't ridicule for being a rigorist for "believing the Word of the Lord", since you don't even FOLLOW the Word of the Lord, in its entirety. Just the bits and pieces you twist out of context. Consult the OP of this thread...

I ridicule you because you expect EVERYONE to act in the ideal way instantly, while not practicing what you preach. Being a Christian is the life of conversion, the life of change to Christ. You falsely believe that one wakes up the next day and "poof", you are magically made "perfect". Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Your subsequent arrogance towards weaker Christians, many of which do exist within organized religions, proves your ACTUAL progress in becoming Christ-like.

You believe baptism into a particular sect is what saves you. This is common of all cults that have strayed from the simplicity which is in Christ.

One could just as easily twist your argument upon YOUR cult that has strayed from the simplicity of Christ found in organized religion... This is how you argue??? Claim the 'high ground' without any evidence, just rhetoric. It has become the mark of the Adullam...

John 3 explains otherwise. Those baptized into Christ are baptized into His death and resurrection. EVERYONE, not just those who are LATER found to be perfect. EVEN THE POOR Christians who may stray were baptized into Christ, and Paul makes that quite clear.

The Bible says a lot about baptism, and in each case, it is about being brought into the Paschal Mystery.

If the Kingdom was ONLY to come at the end of time, we would still be under the auspice of the devil. We would still be under the bondage of sin. We are not, when we follow Christ, so yet again, you are confused on what the Scriptures say.

Again your argument is off the wall. There is no consistency in what you say. Do you still sin?

YOUR argument is senseless and is un-Scriptural, because the idea of "bondage" does not mean utter perfection in life. Christians continue to sin, and they are not found as "false" Christians IF they stumble and return, since Christ offers forgivenss to those who repent, EVEN IF it ends up being "seven times seventy" times!!! Clearly, you are not familiar with Scriptures, such as this passage, which leads up to the Lord's Prayer (perhaps you should consider praying it and look more closely at the petitions at the end...) Being freed from bondage means we now have the MEANS AVAILABLE to avoid sin - but temptations are still present, and failures still occur. The Bible strongly places this reality before us. It is only the self-proclaimed perfects who think they don't sin, MUST NOT sin, because then it would call into question their self-delusion that they are "in Christ" as they chastise other Christians who are at different stages of their walk.

And of course, you continue to ignore that you have done nothing to address "was Jesus against organized religions" with any sort of evidence from Scriptures...

You are confusing what men do to try to please Jesus and what Jesus actually taught and did! Which religion did Jesus organize? Did Jesus die for organized religion? Or was He condemned by it?

Well explain to me from Scriptures the support of that idea? I have been asking you for over a week, and nothing. Thus, I must dismiss it as more rhetoric from someone who can think of nothing more to add.

Jesus died for ALL men, organizations or not. Whether they were "in the world" or whether they became/would become "spiritually perfect". Jesus ate with sinners and continues to eat with sinners. He came for us, not the "righteous". Jesus organized the Christian religion as a means by which sinners could turn back to the Lord. Jesus was condemned by men, including men who were not part of any organized religion. Being part of organized religion doesn't automatically condemn someone.

More faulty logic.

 

[francisdesales]

You are correct.

Adullam has a number of challenges. First, he needs to successfully engage the many texts that show that the kingdom has already broken in. Now if, for whatever reason, he elects to not engage those texts, another strategy is available to him: Show the fundamental incoherence of asserting that Jesus presently reigns in light of the continued presence of death and sin. And this is the path that Adullam has indeed taken.

The problem, of course, is that there are clear and successful arguments as to why we can have Jesus reigning even in such a state of affairs.

I think enough has been presented by you and I to point out that the Scriptures argue that the Kingdom has already broken into the world. It is like a mustard seed - but is not yet "the largest bush"... "It is like..." and so forth, making it perfectly clear that the Kingdom has already begun, but is not fully realized yet. Jesus uses readily understood analogies (for those people who haven't shut out the Spirit of God yet...) to point out that the Kingdom is already here, but not in full form yet. His argument is the gnostic dribble that has disdain for anything temporal, totally forgetting that God BECAME MAN, to save ALL of creation.

Regards

 

[Drew]

Jesus uses readily understood analogies (for those people who haven't shut out the Spirit of God yet...) to point out that the Kingdom is already here, but not in full form yet.

Yes. And picking up something you posted, the "seed-harvest" image is one of many metaphors deeply ingrained (no pun intended) in the mind of the Israelite, who lived in what was then a deeply agricultural society.

And, of course, that image coheres perfectly with the picture of a kingdom that evolves and reaches full expression over the course of time.

 

[Adullam]

YOU are a disciple "yielding" to the Spirit??????

There is no other way to be a disciple of Christ.

Yielding to THE Holy Spirit, not A spirit, your own...

I have yet to see anything in the Scriptures that speak of one baptizing THEMSELVES, for example. God has established such a sacrament for entrance into the Church. Again, we are speaking of organized structures, such things that curl the toes of the 'church of one' people...

What structure did John the Baptist belong to? Where did he get his authority to baptize from? Hmm. The Pharisees could not answer Jesus on that one because they feared the people. But you can rail here....you are safe behind a computer!

Would Paul have considered a person of your mindset part of the Church? When he wrote letters to communities, was he not writing to PARTICULAR people who had gathered together? Did he write to "people of good will", or Pauline Christians? Was Paul writing to any "believer" who separated themselves from the community but CLAIMED they were "yielding to the Spirit"? Which "spirit" are you actually yielding to when you separate yourself from the Institution that Christ formed?

Christian communities are very tangible, having households of faith that feed, clothe, and encourage those of the household of God. They are as an oasis in the desert, practicing hospitality to the sojourner. So these communities are far more real and tangible than a steeple house whose doors are closed all week except for self-serving services to collect money to pay for empty buildings and empty promises. Couldn't these shrines to vanity be used to house the homeless, help the downtrodden etc....?

Something is not a "shrine of vanity" because of its architecture! That sounds like something a ten year old would come up with. It is the organization itself, whether 20 people or 2000 people... Your efforts to cast hate upon something because it is "organized" is senseless... There are individuals in society that are not superior in morals or behavior to a the society at large. Having a smaller "communion" does not guarantee fidelity to the Sacred Scriptures OR the life that Christ desires us to live. Thus, again, your argument against ORGANIZATIONS is wrong-headed.

You have completely done the politician thing and ignored answering me. You have had much practice in avoidance...no? ;) What purpose do empty buildings serve? Why spend millions on an empty shrine when people are starving?

Jesus Christ did not come to create a new temporal religion with ceremonies, pomp, and an eclesiastical hierarchy. He came to abolish these not to form them.

Merely stating it is pointless. You have had ample opportunity to present your evidence, but I still do not see one verse that backs up your incorrect opinions... Christ came to provide CORRECTIVE to "religious practices". He did not condemn the Scribes and Pharisees for BEING Scribes and Pharisees!!! Yet again, you are incorrect and misread the Scriptures through the eyes of your own "spirit", rather than God's Spirit.

Again your backward response reveals the truth in reverse. What spirit causes men to build empty shrines to their own vanity? What sect adorns it's priests as the Pharisees of old? ETC etc etc....

Christianity is a Way of true holiness.

No, it is not. You do not even know the essence of Christianity, do you...

This must mean yes! :P You disagree with the following verse that you will ignore as per usual. There are many more of course but you will merely ignore the truth at every turn in any regard. I say things from the bible without the quotations....you say it is false...then I post the verse...and you ignore it.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

You are placing Christianity into the category of just another "moral teaching". You propose the typical 21st century dribble that TRIES to eliminate the mystery from Christianity by making it MERELY a "way of holiness". It is MUCH more than that. It is MUCH more than "being loving" to your neighbor. All non Christian religions teach outward love to their fellow man as a way of life. Christianity is about Jesus Christ and His SPECIFIC message, which goes WAY beyond "being nice to other people"...

You are arguing with the voices in your own head here I suppose?

We cannot grow into the perfection of selfless love unless we are constantly with the brethren...

And this is done within my community, as well, so this is just another rant that doesn't apply to the topic...

You have your own community? The FDS community of those who ignore the truth?

Yes, you have made it clear you have made God in your image... This seems to be a 21st century mindset that incorrectly takes our inherent desire to seek God and change it into something of our own choosing so we can equate our thoughts with "God's thoughts". Thus, what you do is actually God doing it... This is not "yielding to the Spirit", this is just projecting.

This is an agnostic viewpoint!

No, this is the reality viewpoint that is backed by the Scriptures in its entirety. We are taught to discern, not just believe any false prophet that says "Lord, Lord"... and presents themselves as "holier than thou". By your fruits, you are known - and your fruits make you out to be something that differs from your cliches and preaching.

YOUR viewpoint is "agnostic" in that it cuts out PART of the Bible's dictates and establishment OF organized religion, Judaism in the OT and Christianity in the NT. You chose not to believe that the Bible is God's Word, so you pick and choose what sounds good and ignore the rest.

LOL read your words back to yourself. Uncomfortable? May as well try scapegoating someone else...preferably not someone from your community! Continuing to follow the voices in your head will not lead to a pleasant end. :verysad

The Kingdom is already here, but not completely established yet...

Temporizing rhetoric that means absolutely whatever you want it to mean...see your own argument above for a clue as to what you are projecting onto me.

I have quoted Scriptures, which is more than you have provided... The Kingdom of God includes being freed from the bondage of sin. Has that freedom entered into the world or not? You cannot ignore it, the Kingdom is present. It is here. Perhaps you are just not aware that you have been freed from bondage yet...?

Are you preaching sinless perfection to me now?

Clearly, "Paul" makes it known that Christ's reign has already begun, but not completed yet. His reign begins in those who submit to the Lord and HIS ways. It is through HIM that all things are - and He has sanctified us. His Kingdom has already begun and He has already broken the power of death, delivering us from the bondage of sin. Yes, His Kingdom has begun and it has already broken into the world, since we have been sanctified, been freed from bondage, and are now brothers of Christ.

Like following Confucius? (you are reversing your logic here and ) You actually don't believe this. You don't believe in freedom from bondage.

Sure I do. The Kingdom of God has broken into the world and I no longer have to be enslaved by the ways of the world. I CAN turn to Christ and realize my joy in Him, rather than of things in the world, being enslaved by things that can become corrupted. Have I FULLY realized that? Have I become sinless? No, but it doesn't follow that I don't believe in freedom from bondage... This is just your typical "either/or" argument that, yet again, misunderstands what Christianity includes a JOURNEY of conversion to Christ.

Good!

You ridicule me as a rigorist for believing the word of the Lord.

I don't ridicule for being a rigorist for "believing the Word of the Lord", since you don't even FOLLOW the Word of the Lord, in its entirety. Just the bits and pieces you twist out of context. Consult the OP of this thread...

I ridicule you because you expect EVERYONE to act in the ideal way instantly, while not practicing what you preach. Being a Christian is the life of conversion, the life of change to Christ. You falsely believe that one wakes up the next day and "poof", you are magically made "perfect". Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Your subsequent arrogance towards weaker Christians, many of which do exist within organized religions, proves your ACTUAL progress in becoming Christ-like.

That is simply your own delusion talking. You are confusing my arguments with the voices in your own head. You are arguing into your mirror again. I said nothing of what you are stating.

You believe baptism into a particular sect is what saves you. This is common of all cults that have strayed from the simplicity which is in Christ.

One could just as easily twist your argument upon YOUR cult that has strayed from the simplicity of Christ found in organized religion... This is how you argue??? Claim the 'high ground' without any evidence, just rhetoric. It has become the mark of the Adullam...

John 3 explains otherwise. Those baptized into Christ are baptized into His death and resurrection. EVERYONE, not just those who are LATER found to be perfect. EVEN THE POOR Christians who may stray were baptized into Christ, and Paul makes that quite clear.

The Bible says a lot about baptism, and in each case, it is about being brought into the Paschal Mystery.

Save us the passion play, please.

If the Kingdom was ONLY to come at the end of time, we would still be under the auspice of the devil. We would still be under the bondage of sin. We are not, when we follow Christ, so yet again, you are confused on what the Scriptures say.

Again your argument is off the wall. There is no consistency in what you say. Do you still sin?

YOUR argument is senseless and is un-Scriptural, because the idea of "bondage" does not mean utter perfection in life. Christians continue to sin, and they are not found as "false" Christians IF they stumble and return, since Christ offers forgivenss to those who repent, EVEN IF it ends up being "seven times seventy" times!!! Clearly, you are not familiar with Scriptures, such as this passage, which leads up to the Lord's Prayer (perhaps you should consider praying it and look more closely at the petitions at the end...) Being freed from bondage means we now have the MEANS AVAILABLE to avoid sin - but temptations are still present, and failures still occur. The Bible strongly places this reality before us. It is only the self-proclaimed perfects who think they don't sin, MUST NOT sin, because then it would call into question their self-delusion that they are "in Christ" as they chastise other Christians who are at different stages of their walk.

The difficulty here is that you are arguing against yourself. When Christ shall return we shall be as He is. So when Christ returns to rule the earth, all bondage will end. Christ does not rule in bondage. If you look at things right side up, it is very easy to understand.

And of course, you continue to ignore that you have done nothing to address "was Jesus against organized religions" with any sort of evidence from Scriptures...

You are confusing what men do to try to please Jesus and what Jesus actually taught and did! Which religion did Jesus organize? Did Jesus die for organized religion? Or was He condemned by it?

Well explain to me from Scriptures the support of that idea? I have been asking you for over a week, and nothing. Thus, I must dismiss it as more rhetoric from someone who can think of nothing more to add.

Jesus died for ALL men, organizations or not. Whether they were "in the world" or whether they became/would become "spiritually perfect". Jesus ate with sinners and continues to eat with sinners. He came for us, not the "righteous". Jesus organized the Christian religion as a means by which sinners could turn back to the Lord. Jesus was condemned by men, including men who were not part of any organized religion. Being part of organized religion doesn't automatically condemn someone.

More faulty logic.

Is it too ideal for you to come out of carnal idolatry? An alcoholic can't imagine life without the bottle, either. But this can be done! One need not be spiritually perfect to take a step in the right direction. Again you only see black and white. While you attempt to strain out gnats...you are swallowing camels.

 

[francisdesales]

You have completely done the politician thing and ignored answering me. You have had much practice in avoidance...no? ;)

What a hypocrite. Have you YET provided any Scriptures that prove the OP of this thread? Nope. Just dancing around the issue and making unproven statements and confusing your opinions with Scriptures...

What purpose do empty buildings serve? Why spend millions on an empty shrine when people are starving?

So perhaps you should give some more of your money to the poor so they can all be fed...

Again your backward response reveals the truth in reverse. What spirit causes men to build empty shrines to their own vanity?

Ask yourself why you are building your own shrine to yourself? "Christianity" according to Adullam...

What sect adorns it's priests as the Pharisees of old? ETC etc etc....

Did Jesus condemn this? Nope...

This must mean yes! :P You disagree with the following verse that you will ignore as per usual. There are many more of course but you will merely ignore the truth at every turn in any regard.

Again, hypocritical statements do not serve this conversation.

I say things from the bible without the quotations....you say it is false...then I post the verse...and you ignore it.

You have rarely posted Scriptures, and I have not ignored any of them.

I posted Scriptures, and YOU ignore them, so yet again, you appear to be quite the hypocrite with the accusations.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is your point? Are you proving that you are wrong by stating that the Kingdom HAS INDEED broken into the world???

Does "true holiness" equate with sinlessness and utter perfection? I doubt Paul had any such intentions.

You are placing Christianity into the category of just another "moral teaching". You propose the typical 21st century dribble that TRIES to eliminate the mystery from Christianity by making it MERELY a "way of holiness". It is MUCH more than that. It is MUCH more than "being loving" to your neighbor. All non Christian religions teach outward love to their fellow man as a way of life. Christianity is about Jesus Christ and His SPECIFIC message, which goes WAY beyond "being nice to other people"...

You are arguing with the voices in your own head here I suppose?

No, your proposition that Christianity is primarily about moral teachings...

You have your own community? The FDS community of those who ignore the truth?

More hypocritical talk...

No, this is the reality viewpoint that is backed by the Scriptures in its entirety.

Where? Don't just tell me, cite it. I tire of your brazen statements, as if you have any sort of authority whatsoever outside your community of one... Just saying them don't make them true, even if you DO think you are godlike...

YOUR viewpoint is "agnostic" in that it cuts out PART of the Bible's dictates and establishment OF organized religion, Judaism in the OT and Christianity in the NT. You chose not to believe that the Bible is God's Word, so you pick and choose what sounds good and ignore the rest.

LOL read your words back to yourself. Uncomfortable?

???? The Bible is full of organized religion and how it brings men together to worship God. How is it someone could miss that from a cursory reading of Scriptures??? Oh, excuse me, I presumed you have read the Bible, forgive me, for clearly, you have only glanced at the Bible...

Maybe you are the one uncomfortable here, as my point is amply supported by Scriptures, while you provide absolutely nothing except your pet theories.

People do not like to take responsibility for their OWN shortcomings, and prefer to blame some "institution" for their issues... I see you as a prime candidate of this.

I have quoted Scriptures, which is more than you have provided... The Kingdom of God includes being freed from the bondage of sin. Has that freedom entered into the world or not? You cannot ignore it, the Kingdom is present. It is here. Perhaps you are just not aware that you have been freed from bondage yet...?

Are you preaching sinless perfection to me now?

Why don't you have your daddy read my posts for you, you seem to read something from them that I have never even implied... I have never said that being freed from bondage = perfection. That is YOUR line... I have said otherwise elsewhere on a number of occasions.

Save us the passion play, please.

Yes, take your own advice to heart...

This entire complaint against anything institutional is some personal vendetta that you have. You haven't detailed it yet on the reasoning. I suppose someone in the office gave you a dirty look or a priest said something you didn't like, maybe told you that you need to go to confession or something. This, no doubt, brought the wrath of Adullam out, and to this day, hates all forms of human organization (except the ones that HE invents, such as his own personal 'church' that conforms to HIS will...) It is easy to transfer your responsibility and blame it onto some impersonal "institution".

This is why this thread has lasted so long. Your refusal to admit you are wrong and that Jesus was NOT against organized religion... Pride is an amazing thing, especially when it is religious pride...

YOUR argument is senseless and is un-Scriptural, because the idea of "bondage" does not mean utter perfection in life. Christians continue to sin, and they are not found as "false" Christians IF they stumble and return, since Christ offers forgivenss to those who repent, EVEN IF it ends up being "seven times seventy" times!!! Clearly, you are not familiar with Scriptures, such as this passage, which leads up to the Lord's Prayer (perhaps you should consider praying it and look more closely at the petitions at the end...) Being freed from bondage means we now have the MEANS AVAILABLE to avoid sin - but temptations are still present, and failures still occur. The Bible strongly places this reality before us. It is only the self-proclaimed perfects who think they don't sin, MUST NOT sin, because then it would call into question their self-delusion that they are "in Christ" as they chastise other Christians who are at different stages of their walk.

The difficulty here is that you are arguing against yourself. When Christ shall return we shall be as He is. So when Christ returns to rule the earth, all bondage will end. Christ does not rule in bondage. If you look at things right side up, it is very easy to understand.

That has already begun. Christians DO choose not to sin, and thus, the Spirit is working and men are freed from bondage. As I have already said numerous times, the Christian walk is a journey. We are gradually freed from various forms of bondages. Some are freed very quickly of particular vices, while others take longer to free themselves from different vices. In you case, you are still bound by pride. But I would venture to say that God has freed you from SOME bondage.

Thus, the Kingdom has already begun to free men from the enslavement of sin. It is too bad you cannot recognize this even in yourself. The Kingdom has begun to free even you from sin in your life. It does not follow that the Kingdom cannot be here UNLESS we are entirely freed. I have already posted a large section of Scriptures (Hebrews) that you conveniently ignore (and have the gall to tell me that I ignore Scriptures???) Clearly, you need help in understanding the simple concept that the Kingdom is NOT FULLY REALIZED YET.

What part of "the kingdom is like a mustard seed" don't you get...??? :crazy

Ah well, you have ignored this from the beginning, you'll ignore it again and then foolishly accuse me of ignoring you...

And of course, you continue to ignore that you have done nothing to address "was Jesus against organized religions" with any sort of evidence from Scriptures...

You are confusing what men do to try to please Jesus and what Jesus actually taught and did! Which religion did Jesus organize? Did Jesus die for organized religion? Or was He condemned by it?

[/quote]

you are confusing your opinions with what the Bible says about Jesus and His position regarding organized religion.

And until you actually prove any of your assertions, you are just blowing smoke...

 

[Adullam]

"Why do ye also transgress the Commandment of God by your tradition? ... But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:3,9 KJV)

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:8-9 KJV)


"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Colossians 2:16-22 KJV)

"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" (Galatians 4:3-9 KJV)

 

[Adullam]

Thus, the Kingdom has already begun to free men from the enslavement of sin. It is too bad you cannot recognize this even in yourself. The Kingdom has begun to free even you from sin in your life. It does not follow that the Kingdom cannot be here UNLESS we are entirely freed. I have already posted a large section of Scriptures (Hebrews) that you conveniently ignore (and have the gall to tell me that I ignore Scriptures???) Clearly, you need help in understanding the simple concept that the Kingdom is NOT FULLY REALIZED YET.

What part of "the kingdom is like a mustard seed" don't you get...??? :crazy

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be (partially) free indeed. John 8:36 I added the "partially" so it agrees with your carnal reasoning!

The opposite of what you say is true (as usual). The kingdom of God is fully realized in the glorification of Christ. This took place 2,000 years ago. Jesus is not partially glorified. There is a new and living way that is available to men today. Due to a lack of faith in Christ's victory, that kingdom has very little representation here yet.

One day soon the kingdoms of the world will be swallowed up by the coming of Christ in the clouds. Then Jesus and His saints will rule the world and make the kingdom of God a political reality in this world.

The victory is already ours IF we have faith, The victory is not through our own vain efforts as you preach...but through the power of the divine nature of they who have received the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

Here are more verses for you to consider (or ignore as you will)

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9

"No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. " 1 John 3:6

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God" 1 John 3:9

1 John 2: 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Man organizes his religion around his lack of faith in God. It becomes Holy Spirit proof in it's extreme application. Rather, we are to wait upon the Lord until we are empowered from on high, (See Acts2). Then we can proceed according to power as opposed to men's reasonings. :yes

 

[Drew]

I already asked you to take me to the physical office of Jesus Christ. You eschew dualism? You believe in concrete reality? Prove it and please stop your double speak. It is very tiring. :crazy

And, of course, I have already shown how such a request is misguided.

I can no more take you to the physical office of Jesus Christ than can some poor Israelite take someone to the office of Tiberious, emperor of the Roman Empire.

Does that mean that Tiberius is not emperor? Of course not.

In the same way, the fact that you and I cannot "go to Jesus's office" does not mean He is not ruling.

 

[Drew]

"Why do ye also transgress the Commandment of God by your tradition? ... But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:3,9 KJV)

And, of course, it is simply bad logic to conclude that this statement entails a rejection on Jesus' part of organized religion in general.

Jesus is here critiquing the Pharisees and how they have deviated from the path that Israel was called to follow. Jesus was a real person who broke into history in a very specific context. This statement of His is a pointed critique of the leadership of Israel of His day - it is not a generalized a-historic rejection of organized religion.

Think how silly this argument would be:

1. A judge scolds Charles Manson for going off into the woods with his followers and forming a dangerous cult-like group;
2. Therefore, no one should ever go off into the woods as a group.

That would be a ludicrous conclusion to draw - the judge is critiquing the Manson family and not warning society at large against going off into the woods with your friends.

 

[Adullam]

I already asked you to take me to the physical office of Jesus Christ. You eschew dualism? You believe in concrete reality? Prove it and please stop your double speak. It is very tiring. :crazy

And, of course, I have already shown how such a request is misguided.

I can no more take you to the physical office of Jesus Christ than can some poor Israelite take someone to the office of Tiberious, emperor of the Roman Empire.

Does that mean that Tiberius is not emperor? Of course not.

In the same way, the fact that you and I cannot "go to Jesus's office" does not mean He is not ruling.

Tiberius is no longer emperor therefore no one can see him.

 

[Drew]

Tiberius is no longer emperor therefore no one can see him.

I am going to assume that you are joking here, since the other alternative does not reflect well on your reasoning skills. And I would prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Adullam]

"Why do ye also transgress the Commandment of God by your tradition? ... But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:3,9 KJV)

And, of course, it is simply bad logic to conclude that this statement entails a rejection on Jesus' part of organized religion in general.

Jesus is here critiquing the Pharisees and how they have deviated from the path that Israel was called to follow. Jesus was a real person who broke into history in a very specific context. This statement of His is a pointed critique of the leadership of Israel of His day - it is not a generalized a-historic rejection of organized religion.

Think how silly this argument would be:

1. A judge scolds Charles Manson for going off into the woods with his followers and forming a dangerous cult-like group;
2. Therefore, no one should ever go off into the woods as a group.

That would be a ludicrous conclusion to draw - the judge is critiquing the Manson family and not warning society at large against going off into the woods with your friends.

But there is a warning against dangerous cult-like groups! That is what you are missing...turning aside the obvious truth of the bible. Have men's traditions improved over time? What of the commandments of men?

We do not forsake the gathering in the woods as you say. You are making the argument against logic here. The bible is not against itself. We rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and empower us so that WE DON'T FOLLOW THE VAIN TRADITIONS OF MEN...but rather the way of God. This is completely ignored by the ones who set up ecclesiastical gears and wheels that those who are deceived support and follow. There is the dualism you are looking for. Trying to follow Christ through human institutions. Only blindness precludes this revelation to dawn on anyone.

 

[Adullam]

Tiberius is no longer emperor therefore no one can see him.

I am going to assume that you are joking here, since the other alternative does not reflect well on your reasoning skills. And I would prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt.

It is your reasoning that has no grounding in reality. You are the one saying that the kingdom is partially reigning in the political world. A partial Jesus with partial truth. This is typical of all syncretists who mix and match at their own whim. This mixture is harlotry and the mark of Babylon.

 

[Drew]

Tiberius is no longer emperor therefore no one can see him.

I am going to assume that you are joking here, since the other alternative does not reflect well on your reasoning skills. And I would prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt.

It is your reasoning that has no grounding in reality. You are the one saying that the kingdom is partially reigning in the political world. A partial Jesus with partial truth. This is typical of all syncretists who mix and match at their own whim. This mixture is harlotry and the mark of Babylon.

The fact that Tiberius is no longer emperor is, of course, irrelevant.

You argued that Jesus cannot be reigning in the temporal world since we cannot "go to his office".

Well, back in the first century, when Tiberius was in fact reigning over Israel, many Jews could not "go to his office" either.

So your argument fails.

 

[Drew]

But there is a warning against dangerous cult-like groups!

Irrelevant and fundamentally question- begging - the fact that the judge rebukes Manson for forming a group does not entail a global admontion against people forming groups.

The text you quoted was Jesus' rebuke of the leaders of Israel of His day. You are turning that into a general context-independent rebuke of organized religion.

That is not proper logic.