Was Jesus against organized religion?

[francisdesales]

Hiding? I rail against the truth??? :biglol

What a hypocrite...

Where is your evidence of Jesus speaking out against organized religion??? It is you hiding by constantly talking about everything BUT the topic at hand. You constantly ignore points that are made that hurt your paltry ideas of what God wants and how the Scriptures relates His desires to mankind.

Still nothing from you but denial. Nothing but whining and crying. :bigcry

Classic denial. And pages and pages of drivel that put me to ..

Where is the evidence that Jesus was against organized religion? Time to put up or shut up.

 

[francisdesales]

[

Not at all! Christ's church has no hierachies...There is One Lord and all of us are brethren. You are confusing the traditions of men with the biblical text.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even; and all ye are brethren.

You are again confused. Being a brother does not supplant heirachy or leadership...

Thus, when the President of the US says "My fellow Americans", does that mean he is on the same level as all Americans and has given up any sort of power of the Executive Office??? Of course not. We are all Americans, at different levels understood...

Same in Christianity. WHO would consider Peter as not the head of the Christian communities during the time related in Acts? Or Paul of his communities? It was understood by all that they were the leaders of the community. Yet, they call other Christians "brothers". Same thing. We are all "related" in one community, but there is heirarchy and leadership of service.

Yet again, you misunderstand common sense and the Scriptures.

 

[Drew]

If you could, why are you not telling us what the errors are?

Your error is that you are presenting Jesus as powerless son of God that cannot bring peaceful earth that He promissed.

.

So far, I my "guarantee" has held up:

I guarantee that you will not directly engage any of the specific arguments that I have provided and successfully discover any errors that undermine the main conclusion in any of them.

 

[Drew]

If you could, why are you not telling us what the errors are?

Your error is that you are presenting Jesus as powerless son of God that cannot bring peaceful earth that He promissed.

.

So far, I my "guarantee" has held up:

I guarantee that you will not directly engage any of the specific arguments that I have provided and successfully discover any errors that undermine the main conclusion in any of them.

What you post above makes no specific critique of the actual content of any of my arguments - you have not said "When Drew drew conclusion XXX in such a such post, he was mistaken and the reason he was mistaken is YYY"

And I know why you have not done so.

Its because the arguments are sound.

 

[Drew]

As I believe I and others have already argued, there is a deep and foundational error that lies beneath the erroneous position that Jesus opposes organized religion.

It is, of course, the error of dualism - the belief that there is a "spiritual" domain that is pure and undefiled and a "temporal" domain which is fallen and bad.

That is not the Biblical position. When God created the temporal domain, He declared it to be very good. True, Adam fell and all of the temporal domain was indeed tainted or damaged. But is the temporal order outside of the scope of God's redemptive activity in Christ? Apparently not:

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Let's be clear: You are free to believe that the temporal order and all its institutions have been rejected by God. Its a free country - believe what you want. But you are not in line with Paul, who is here clearly asserting that God has reconciled all things.

 

[Adullam]

As I believe I and others have already argued, there is a deep and foundational error that lies beneath the erroneous position that Jesus opposes organized religion.

It is, of course, the error of dualism - the belief that there is a "spiritual" domain that is pure and undefiled and a "temporal" domain which is fallen and bad.

That is not the Biblical position. When God created the temporal domain, He declared it to be very good. True, Adam fell and all of the temporal domain was indeed tainted or damaged. But is the temporal order outside of the scope of God's redemptive activity in Christ? Apparently not:

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

One day this will come to pass. The lion shall lie down with the lamb. Swords shall be beaten into plowshares. All things SHALL BE reconciled. There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

 

[Adullam]

[

Not at all! Christ's church has no hierachies...There is One Lord and all of us are brethren. You are confusing the traditions of men with the biblical text.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even; and all ye are brethren.

You are again confused. Being a brother does not supplant heirachy or leadership...

Thus, when the President of the US says "My fellow Americans", does that mean he is on the same level as all Americans and has given up any sort of power of the Executive Office??? Of course not. We are all Americans, at different levels understood...

Same in Christianity. WHO would consider Peter as not the head of the Christian communities during the time related in Acts? Or Paul of his communities? It was understood by all that they were the leaders of the community. Yet, they call other Christians "brothers". Same thing. We are all "related" in one community, but there is heirarchy and leadership of service.

Yet again, you misunderstand common sense and the Scriptures.

You don't know the kingdom of heaven..

Matt 20: 25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.

26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

 

[Drew]

One day this will come to pass. The lion shall lie down with the lamb. Swords shall be beaten into plowshares. All things SHALL BE reconciled. There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Well' you disagree with Paul when you place all this in the future - note the tenses in what he has said:

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

But forget about that - I think this statement clearly shows that Jesus already reigns:

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His (calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Now I look forward to how you will tap-dance out of this one, asserting, no doubt that when Paul places Jesus over all rule and authority and power and dominion, Paul really meant all rule and authority and power and dominion, except those associated with this temporal world.

But, of course, Paul does not make such an "except" qualification as you no doubt will.

 

[Adullam]

One day this will come to pass. The lion shall lie down with the lamb. Swords shall be beaten into plowshares. All things SHALL BE reconciled. There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

Well' you disagree with Paul when you place all this in the future - note the tenses in what he has said:

He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

But forget about that - I think this statement clearly shows that Jesus already reigns:

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His (calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Now I look forward to how you will tap-dance out of this one, asserting, no doubt that when Paul places Jesus over all rule and authority and power and dominion, Paul really meant all rule and authority and power and dominion, except those associated with this temporal world.

But, of course, Paul does not make such an "except" qualification as you no doubt will.

Except? You are already doing a dance. According to your interpretation, Jesus presently reings here and now over the governments of the earth. He exercises control over the wars, the famines, the elections etc.... That is your position. Are you now making an exception? Where does Paul do that? Are you continuing with a partial understanding here?

According to you the temporal world IS reality! Why do you keep changing the rules? Either Jesus is presently reingning over the chaos of this world...or He isn't! Simple!

I have stated that Jesus has been glorified in heaven, with a name that is above all others...That is in the eternal reality. This world is in a temporal zone guided by time. There is no time in the spiritual dimension. Your understanding is stuck in this time frame.

When this world is brought into the divine reality...Jesus will take this world by force! There will be no voting for Jesus. He will add this world and it's dimension to His everlasting kingdom. Thy kingdom come!

 

[Drew]

And the dance continues.

Obviously your position cannot survive without transforming this statement by Paul:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

....into either this:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, except earthy authorities and powers, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

or this:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, only in the age to come but not in the present age

or, even worse, this:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, except earthy authorities and powers, and every name that is named, only in the age to come but not in the present age

Tell us, by whose authority do you modify scripture thus?

 

[shad]

What you post above makes no specific critique of the actual content of any of my arguments - you have not said "When Drew drew conclusion XXX in such a such post, he was mistaken and the reason he was mistaken is YYY"

That is your excuse,

Jesus is powerful Son of God, He will keep His promise. When He reign He will bring perfect and peaceful earth back like it was before Adam and Eve sinned.

One day this will come to pass. The lion shall lie down with the lamb. Swords shall be beaten into plowshares. All things SHALL BE reconciled. There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

This is the peaceful earth that Jesus will bring back.

Your Savior is not the One that the Scripture descrives.

sorry,

Take care.

.

 

[Drew]

What you post above makes no specific critique of the actual content of any of my arguments - you have not said "When Drew drew conclusion XXX in such a such post, he was mistaken and the reason he was mistaken is YYY"

That is your excuse,

Jesus is powerful Son of God, He will keep His promise. When He reign He will bring perfect and peaceful earth back like it was before Adam and Eve sinned.

One day this will come to pass. The lion shall lie down with the lamb. Swords shall be beaten into plowshares. All things SHALL BE reconciled. There will be a new heaven and a new earth.

This is the peaceful earth that Jesus will bring back.

Your Savior is not the One that the Scripture descrives.

sorry,

Take care.

.

So far, I my "guarantee" has held up:

I guarantee that you will not directly engage any of the specific arguments that I have provided and successfully discover any errors that undermine the main conclusion in any of them.

You have pointed out no errors in any of my arguments.

 

[Adullam]

And the dance continues.

Obviously your position cannot survive without transforming this statement by Paul:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

....into either this:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, except earthy authorities and powers, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

or this:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, only in the age to come but not in the present age

or, even worse, this:

....seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, except earthy authorities and powers, and every name that is named, only in the age to come but not in the present age

Tell us, by whose authority do you modify scripture thus?

seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come

Read where Jesus is...the heavenly places. He is above all rule and dominion! But He is still in heavenly places. God the Father is also in the heavens. He has always overseen this world. From the beginning. So now Jesus has taken that place in the heavenlies.

The ones you are protecting is the devil and his demons. Why do you deny their existence? Their temporal rule has not yet come to an end. They rule in the vacuum that the saints have yet to fill.

 

[Drew]

Read where Jesus is...the heavenly places. He is above all rule and dominion! But He is still in heavenly places.

I am very aware that He is in heavenly places. But that does not change what Paul says, even you indeed are changing what Paul says.

It says that He rules over all. You say He rules over all, except the temporal order.

That's fine. It is no crime to suggest that Paul was mistaken and that you have the truth. People are free to choose which authority they will accept.

 

[Adullam]

Read where Jesus is...the heavenly places. He is above all rule and dominion! But He is still in heavenly places.

I am very aware that He is in heavenly places. But that does not change what Paul says, even you indeed are changing what Paul says.

It says that He rules over all. You say He rules over all, except the temporal order.

That's fine. It is no crime to suggest that Paul was mistaken and that you have the truth. People are free to choose which authority they will accept.

You are making something simple into something complex.

Does God rule the universe?

Does sin yet rule in this world?

Regardless of whatever conclusions you Drew, God does not want to subject the present order of things yet...until it is the time He has chosen. Until then, the world continues on oblivious to the eternal reality.

Is the world forced to obey the Lord?

Is the world forced to obey the temporal order?

 

[Adullam]

2 Cor. 4: 4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

Whom is Paul referring to here as the "god of this world"?

 

[Adullam]

Gal 1:4 "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world,according to the will of God and our Father:"

Is the kingdom of God evil? Even partially so?

 

[TheCatholic]

Was Jesus against organized religion?

Not at all. Christ’s Church was and is hierarchical. He chose 12 apostles based on the OT 12 father of the 12 tribes. He made Peter the leader, and gave them authorities that all the other disciples did not have. Later, in Acts, the hierarchy develops further. The apostles appoint Deacons (greek - diakonos ), Priests (greek - presbyteros ), and Bishops (greek - episkopos), and each have different duties. It is still the same today

Not at all! Christ's church has no hierachies...There is One Lord and all of us are brethren. You are confusing the traditions of men with the biblical text...........

Apparently you don't read you Bible very well.

Havent you read Acts, where Deacons (greek - diakonos ), Priests (greek - presbyteros ), and Bishops (greek - episkopos) are appointed? Do you deny that Christ chose 12 Apostles as teachers and leaders? Have you not read Timothy 1 & 2 where Timothy is instructed in the ways of being a Bishop?

That straight scripture, not "traditions"

 

[Adullam]

Bump!




Not at all! Christ's church has no hierachies...There is One Lord and all of us are brethren. You are confusing the traditions of men with the biblical text.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even; and all ye are brethren.

As for authority...you forget Paul, Stephen, Agabus, Ananias the Damascan, the elders in Antioch etc....Authority comes through the Holy Spirit. One does not limit God as to whom He chooses to empower. Playing church is a carnal occupation.

You cannot find priests in the NT. You have inserted this according to your tradition again. There is no biblical basis for an exclusive priesthood that mediates between God AND OTHER BELIEVERS! All disciples are priests. Not the temporal kind with showy robes...but true ambassadors for Christ.


The institution of a priesthood inthe church was wrought through Constantine the pagan king. He wished for the "masses" to attend his "christian" temples in order to have all people in his realm become followers of the religion that had been adopted by the state. The resulting system became a syncretism of both Christian doctrine and pagan ritual. Some believers opted for this mistakenly thinking that this was God's will....rather than a test from God. The trojan horse of paganism into the church has effectively killed any authority it once possessed. We have been reaping the powerless gospel ever since. Until we forsake the ways of men and return to the living God.

Diakonos: This simply means servant. The churches required and still require servants to see to the needs of the brethren.

Presbyteros: These are the elders. The qualification for this group is to be...old! In the old days people used to respect the gray hairs.

Episkopos: Improperly translated as Bishop. The word literally means "overseer.' This man saw to the order in the church. This was a function, not an office. Lke a chairman. He was selected from among the elders to oversee in the meetings. Beyond the meetings he was just another brother, although respected as a mature one.

Churches are to be built on households of faith. A family is the smallest community unit, a building block in the divine community. Where 2 or 3 of these households, or even single brothers, gather (come together to share a common life) there is Christ in their midst.....there is the church!

The church at Antioch began with 3 brothers. Barnabas and Saul (Paul) joined them in their work at a later time. Notice the authority (through the Holy Spirit) in the midst of the original 3 to appoint both Barnabus and Paul to the missionary work they were to embark upon. Christ was the Head of that church!!!! They sent out the apostles (through the authority of Christ's presence among them) and not vice versa! :yes

"Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul." Acts 13:1

 

[Drew]

Regardless of whatever conclusions you Drew, God does not want to subject the present order of things yet...until it is the time He has chosen.

No - it has been clearly shown from the scriptures that this time has already come.

I suspect that one of the reasons that you seem to not tire in this matter is that, unlike me and many others, you appear to be perfecrtly happy to continue to endorse a position that is clearly incorrect - at least for those who take the Bible seriously.

You have successfully refuted precisely zero of the arguments presented for the present kingship of Jesus over this temporal order.

You see - that would bother me if I were in your shoes - I would feel obliged to show how such scripturally grounded arguments are incorrect.