Was Jesus against organized religion?

[Adullam]

But there is a warning against dangerous cult-like groups!

Irrelevant and fundamentally question- begging - the fact that the judge rebukes Manson for forming a group does not entail a global admontion against people forming groups.

The text you quoted was Jesus' rebuke of the leaders of Israel of His day. You are turning that into a general context-independent rebuke of organized religion.

That is not proper logic.

Carnal arguments seem conclusive until one sees through the temporal facade...an eternal...oh!... follows. Organized religion is man made. Islam, Hinduisn, churchianity...all flavours of the same source. Or...you may prefer one flavour over the others. Regardless, true Christianity is out of the reach of clerical wizardry...the power comes from heaven.

 

[Adullam]

You argued that Jesus cannot be reigning in the temporal world since we cannot "go to his office".

Well, back in the first century, when Tiberius was in fact reigning over Israel, many Jews could not "go to his office" either.

So your argument fails.


But Romans could! So who, if not you, can go to Jesus' earthly office where He rules? Is He in the middle east?

Funny how this is your argument that you are trying to salvage. There is no logic to it whatsoever...but keep trying. :help

 

[Drew]

Is there anyone out there reading this thread other than Adullum who shares his general positon and is interested in serious, competent discussion of the topic? If so, please make a post to that effect and present your case. I will no longer be interacting with Adullum on this matter.

 

[francisdesales]

"Why do ye also transgress the Commandment of God by your tradition? ... But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:3,9 KJV)

Jesus explains in the Mark version of this story what is a "tradition of men". A "tradition of men" is a commandment of men or Adullam that attempts to CIRCUMVENT the commands of God. Jesus gives an example, Korban. This describes your "church of one" to the tee... It is a "tradition of men" who invent things so they only answer to themselves.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:8-9 KJV)

Yes, which is why I provide corrective to your vain philosophy that is not backed up by Scriptures...

Vanity tends to express itself and its own. Just like you.

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Colossians 2:16-22 KJV)

this clearly does not mean we are no longer subject to the laws of the land. Paul makes that clear to the Romans, for example, that we are to follow the law of the emperor, as long as it doesn't break the law of the Lord.

This proof texting is not helping your position one bit...

"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" (Galatians 4:3-9 KJV)

Which you deny has ever happened, since you claim the Kingdom has not entered and everyone is still under the bondage of sin... How interesting you cite this verse after the silly comments you have been making earlier.

Now, I understand why you have avoided citing the Scriptures...

 

[francisdesales]

But there is a warning against dangerous cult-like groups!

Why is it you don't realize that you yourself are the types we are warned against in Scriptures - those that follow vain philosophies that are nothing but shallow self-promoting...

That is what you are missing...turning aside the obvious truth of the bible.

Obvious only to cult-like people who have a high opinion of themselves, so much that they continuously avoid any counter arguments that thoroughly deflate their un-scriptural soap-box preachings...

We do not forsake the gathering in the woods as you say. You are making the argument against logic here. The bible is not against itself. We rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and empower us so that WE DON'T FOLLOW THE VAIN TRADITIONS OF MEN...but rather the way of God.

Apparently, you do follow the vain traditions of yourself, rather than God, since God's Word doesn't make any sort of statements that you attempt to make. Still, nothing on whether Jesus was against organized religion, just pitiful attempts to poison the well by stating that "we" are wrong because "all institutions follow the ways of men", thus, oppose God...

Such logic leads to some very odd and self-defeating positions, if one were to actually follow them to their pitiful conclusion... Any gathering of people becomes a "vain tradition of men", so the Adullam's of the world must become "hermits" in an attempt separate themselves from perceived evil. This paranoia is compounded by the "god complex" that they each inevitably foment from their keyboards...

Can you say "CULT"?

No, I am not drinking that kool-aid, buddy. Think what you want, but until you provide Scripture citations that prove that Jesus was against organized religion, it is YOU that is cult-like with your silly call to do away with human organizations.

This is completely ignored by the ones who set up ecclesiastical gears and wheels that those who are deceived support and follow. There is the dualism you are looking for. Trying to follow Christ through human institutions. Only blindness precludes this revelation to dawn on anyone.

The more ecclesia ignores you, the better... It is much better to follow the dictates of Christ, clearly laid out in Scriptures, that speak of heirarchy, leaders, and institutional worship of God. Anyone who cannot see such things have just not read the Bible, pure and simple - or are in utter denial as they sit in their "cave" separated from the Church.

 

[Adullam]

"Why do ye also transgress the Commandment of God by your tradition? ... But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Matthew 15:3,9 KJV)

Jesus explains in the Mark version of this story what is a "tradition of men". A "tradition of men" is a commandment of men or Adullam that attempts to CIRCUMVENT the commands of God. Jesus gives an example, Korban. This describes your "church of one" to the tee... It is a "tradition of men" who invent things so they only answer to themselves.


Where do you get this church of one idea from? LOL I have consistently said that the relationship to both God and the brethren are required for discipleship. You have only been able to pick up on the one your brain misfires at. Your voices say that this is not possible. Christians see this type of reasoning in non-believers. Since I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and the new birth, you attack this...as you do not believe in a direct relationship with God. You believe in the intermediary organization of your church....which to you equals closeness to God. So you follow the cult of the RCC religion. This is not the same as being a Christian.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:8-9 KJV)

Yes, which is why I provide corrective to your vain philosophy that is not backed up by Scriptures...

Vanity tends to express itself and its own. Just like you

Nastiness makes what point?

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Colossians 2:16-22 KJV)

this clearly does not mean we are no longer subject to the laws of the land. Paul makes that clear to the Romans, for example, that we are to follow the law of the emperor, as long as it doesn't break the law of the Lord.

This proof texting is not helping your position one bit...

It doesn't have anything to do with water polo either. This thread is about the dangers of human organization displacing the power of God. Men always try to know better. But God confounds the understanding of men...and reveals the truth to babes...the ones without the ecclesiastical religious education. The ones who don't prefer the seat of vanity or be called father or teacher. To you, the religious hypocrites are justified and the simple brethren are hypocrites. Reasoning such as yours will be quenched soon! Maranatha!

"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" (Galatians 4:3-9 KJV)

Which you deny has ever happened, since you claim the Kingdom has not entered and everyone is still under the bondage of sin... How interesting you cite this verse after the silly comments you have been making earlier.

Now, I understand why you have avoided citing the Scriptures...

You are avoiding scriptures as you say. You deny the birth from above. You deny and decry the Lord abiding in the one called to be a saint, calling this "the church of one! Utter foolishness. You hide behind the skirts of religious priests and rail against the truth. You are going backwards into more bondage. We are not called backwards into more human control, but forward into Spirit-control. You are a classic case of someone who argues with a false passion....and that has seen nothing. You elevate ignorance of spiritual things to the heights of glory. You glory in your own vanity, hiding your self-worship in ecclesiastical clichés thinking no one will see you. You operate with the eyes in your own head and then surmise that others can do no better. You accuse others of what you do yourself. Pride comes before a fall!

 

[Adullam]

But there is a warning against dangerous cult-like groups!

Why is it you don't realize that you yourself are the types we are warned against in Scriptures - those that follow vain philosophies that are nothing but shallow self-promoting...


Unless I have been called of God, and you are just trying to promote a dead religion in the guise of the RCC. Better that one person (or rather any that God calls outside the bondage of human sytems) be condemned than a whole human institution be brought to the light. So goes the reasoning. Promoting a cult is not superior to a life in Christ. There is no safety in numbers. The masses, actually, are always wrong. (pun intended)

That is what you are missing...turning aside the obvious truth of the bible.

Obvious only to cult-like people who have a high opinion of themselves, so much that they continuously avoid any counter arguments that thoroughly deflate their un-scriptural soap-box preachings...

We do not forsake the gathering in the woods as you say. You are making the argument against logic here. The bible is not against itself. We rely on the Holy Spirit to guide and empower us so that WE DON'T FOLLOW THE VAIN TRADITIONS OF MEN...but rather the way of God.

Apparently, you do follow the vain traditions of yourself, rather than God, since God's Word doesn't make any sort of statements that you attempt to make. Still, nothing on whether Jesus was against organized religion, just pitiful attempts to poison the well by stating that "we" are wrong because "all institutions follow the ways of men", thus, oppose God...

Such logic leads to some very odd and self-defeating positions, if one were to actually follow them to their pitiful conclusion... Any gathering of people becomes a "vain tradition of men", so the Adullam's of the world must become "hermits" in an attempt separate themselves from perceived evil. This paranoia is compounded by the "god complex" that they each inevitably foment from their keyboards...

Can you say "CULT"?

No, I am not drinking that kool-aid, buddy. Think what you want, but until you provide Scripture citations that prove that Jesus was against organized religion, it is YOU that is cult-like with your silly call to do away with human organizations.


You are already drinking that kool-aid! The RCC is a cult. You are following the traditions of men. Popes are just men that are elevated by other men. Those who have the Spirit can see the vanity and aggrandizement of men in this. It is quite easy to see. You cannot understand the bible. It is interpreted for you and you swallow the regurgitation. Your relationship is with the temporal powers...not the eternal.

This is completely ignored by the ones who set up ecclesiastical gears and wheels that those who are deceived support and follow. There is the dualism you are looking for. Trying to follow Christ through human institutions. Only blindness precludes this revelation to dawn on anyone.

The more ecclesia ignores you, the better... It is much better to follow the dictates of Christ, clearly laid out in Scriptures, that speak of heirarchy, leaders, and institutional worship of God. Anyone who cannot see such things have just not read the Bible, pure and simple - or are in utter denial as they sit in their "cave" separated from the Church.

You cannot see the sign of the times. God has winked at the tendency of men to follow each other to a degree up till now. It takes patience to deal with the carnal tendencies in man. But the time is coming, and now is, that He is calling His people out of Babylon. The Great Whore and her lovers will have none of it. We are being prepared to receive the king of glory. Leave behind the pleasures of ecclesiastical fornication. The kingdom of God is at hand!

 

[Drew]

Given the compelling arguments that Jesus is indeed a presently reigning King, a related question arises: What motivates so many to deny this?

I suggest that a disturbing answer: by "kicking God upstairs" and relegating His Kingship to some future time, we create a state of affairs where its "business as usual" in the temporal domain. This means that the rich and powerful get all the goodies and the poor and the weak go to the wall. You see, if Jesus' present kingship is embraced, this scenario is challenged.

While I am not saying that all deniers of "kingdom now" have this motivation, it cannot be denied that relegating Jesus' kingship to the future suits the power interests of our day, who are strongly motivated to be able to legitimate their own will to power.

Something to consider, I suggest.

 

[shad]

Given the compelling arguments that Jesus is indeed a presently reigning King,

It is clear that Jesus is not presently reigning. why do you keep on arguing? When Jesus reigns there is going to be complete and perfect peace. Do you see peace in the world? Jesus is Prince of peace, remember?

Pride is the enemy of God, friend.

.

 

[Free]

It is clear that Jesus is not presently reigning....When Jesus reigns there is going to be complete and perfect peace. Do you see peace in the world? Jesus is Prince of peace, remember?

Drew has made some pretty sound arguments. How about refuting them point by point rather than making such broad statements.

why do you keep on arguing?

Why do you keep on arguing?

Pride is the enemy of God, friend.

Yeah, it's always the other person who is the one with pride. :gah If you want to accuse others of pride, at least have something substantive to back up your accusation, like an irrefutable, sound argument.

 

[Drew]

Given the compelling arguments that Jesus is indeed a presently reigning King,

It is clear that Jesus is not presently reigning. why do you keep on arguing? When Jesus reigns there is going to be complete and perfect peace. Do you see peace in the world? Jesus is Prince of peace, remember?

Pride is the enemy of God, friend.

.

I believe you are mistaken. The present reign of Jesus has, I suggest, been strongly supported by scriptural arguments. But if it has not, you should be able to detect flaws in the numerous arguments. So please, tell us all, where is the flaw in any of the arguments.

Pick any one you like.

And, of course, I do not believe you will take up this challenge. In fact, I guarantee that you will not directly engage any of the specific arguments that I have provided and successfully discover any errors that undermine the main conclusion in any of them. That may sound like pride, but its time to call you out on your repeated evasions.

I do not expect to convince you, shad, or Adullum, but others who may be "lurking" need to know the truth - numerous scriptural arguments have been provided to the effect that Jesus reigns. And none of them have been successfully challenged.

But I enourage any lurkers to not take my word for it, check the transcript of this thread for youself.

 

[Drew]

When Jesus reigns there is going to be complete and perfect peace. Do you see peace in the world? Jesus is Prince of peace, remember?

This view is based on an incorrect model of the nature of kingship. When a person becomes king, their agenda is not instantaneously and immediately fulfilled. When BarKochba - hailed as Messiah by Jews several decades after Jesus - was made King, a coin was minted with the year "1" on it.

This indicates that with the enthronment of BarKochba, a reign had begun. But it would have been entirely sensible to say things "Bar Kochba is the prince of peace', precisely because his evolving reign would be believed to bring about peace.

And the same is true of Jesus - His reign has begun and it will, in the fulness of time achieve peace.

 

[shad]

Drew has made some pretty sound arguments. How about refuting them point by point rather than making such broad statements.

I did, you just dont like it. Can you explain why we dont have peaceful world if Jesus is reigning the earth right now?

Jesus is prince of peace, He will do perfect job making peaceful earth without taking much time because He is powerful Son of God. You guys are making Him sound like powerless Savior.

.

 

[TheCatholic]

Was Jesus against organized religion?

Not at all. Christ’s Church was and is hierarchical. He chose 12 apostles based on the OT 12 father of the 12 tribes. He made Peter the leader, and gave them authorities that all the other disciples did not have. Later, in Acts, the hierarchy develops further. The apostles appoint Deacons (greek - diakonos ), Priests (greek - presbyteros ), and Bishops (greek - episkopos), and each have different duties. It is still the same today

 

[francisdesales]

I have consistently said that the relationship to both God and the brethren are required for discipleship. You have only been able to pick up on the one your brain misfires at. Your voices say that this is not possible. Christians see this type of reasoning in non-believers. Since I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and the new birth, you attack this...as you do not believe in a direct relationship with God. You believe in the intermediary organization of your church....which to you equals closeness to God. So you follow the cult of the RCC religion. This is not the same as being a Christian.

I don't think you are in a position to tell anyone who is and who is not a Christian, given the history of Chrisitanity includes "organized religion", which you would prefer, allied with the gates of Hell, to bring down...

It is satan who desires to bring down the Church, so any attempt to have God's children put aside what HE established is certainly from satan. :naughty

Our relationship with God is enhanced through Divine Liturgy, but you choose to dismiss something you know nothing about. The "intermediary organization" is in place BY Christ FOR Christ... We receive our birth from above THROUGH Baptism, a visible means where God has chosen to work through. And as you again conveniently ignore, baptism is always done by the community, through an organized religious body. Christ certainly could have chosen to actually DO AWAY with organized religion. However, as this overly long thread has shown, He never did. He did the OPPOSITE by forming a heirarchy and giving this heirarchy the power to bind and loosen. He gave them MORE rituals to follow. And in each case, we find various communities of followers, with leaders and structure and organization. Organization is abundantly found in the Scriptures among Christian believers. You have no concept of what Christianity is because you are not familiar with Scriptures and Christian history.

Vanity tends to express itself and its own. Just like you.

Nastiness makes what point?

Do you deny that you are vain with your comments? Sometimes the truth hurts, but one needs to hear it to reform.

This thread is about the dangers of human organization displacing the power of God.

No, it is about whether Jesus was against organized religions. :crazy

YOU are TRYING to make this into "the dangers of human organizations", which is quite bizarre. You refuse to see that it is the HUMAN WITHIN the organization itself that is the cause of the problem. The organization itself was not formed to prevent man from coming to God. That is clearly wrong.

Thus, whether THAT person is in the "catholic church" or whether he is on his own, the problem remains - his spiritual growth has stopped - perhaps reversed - as he becomes more proud in his own righteousness. The Catholic Church was formed by Christ for reason - to bring men of the world together in Christ. This organization protects the doctrine of the saints once given. Without such an organization, there is no "revelation". It is strictly opinions that are intermixed with modern day cultural biases, such as your own ideas of individualism. This was NEVER part of the cultural practices of 2000 years ago and is not found in Scriptures. You feel the need to reinvent Christianity into YOUR OWN IMAGE.... It no longer is a "revealed religion" given to us by God through the Apostles. Christianity as per Adullam has become whatever makes Adullam feel good about himself...

And if someone disagrees with Adullam??? Then they couldn't possibly be a "true" Christian, because "everyone knows" that Adullam is infallible because of the same "spirit". Whatever, dude...

Oprah and Dr. Phil would be proud of what you have done with Christianity. Twisted it from a revealed religion to a religion of conceit.

Men always try to know better.

Exactly, Adullam. Say that while looking in the mirror and you'll get my point. Thus, the necessity of having an organization that is BEYOND your own pitiful opinions. It is a guard against becoming too arrogant. It is MEN who think they know better, not the organization... The organization was formed with proper goals and the means to achieve that goal. It is when particular men go astray, esp. men in power, when problems begin. The blame is to be placed on men. Thus, leaving the organization because of particular men in search of some "holier way" is action in the wrong direction.

But God confounds the understanding of men...

Again, the prophet speaks but does not heed his own advice... Hypocrisy abounds where love has left.

You are avoiding scriptures as you say. You deny the birth from above.

I never wrote or implied such nonsense. You have already preconceived notions of ALL Christians who worship as part of a larger community. Thus, when the subject comes up, I naturally "deny the birth from above". It is you who deny it, since you think only the "perfect" are "true" Christians. All "ordinary" Christians have not yet been "born from above". Wonderful... Your conclusion is woefully inaccurate - but I realize you won't believe that, since you are infallibly correct.

You hide behind the skirts of religious priests and rail against the truth.

Hiding? I rail against the truth??? :biglol

What a hypocrite...

Where is your evidence of Jesus speaking out against organized religion??? It is you hiding by constantly talking about everything BUT the topic at hand. You constantly ignore points that are made that hurt your paltry ideas of what God wants and how the Scriptures relates His desires to mankind.

I have grown tired of this. I am beginning to think these responses are merely trolls from satan to try to tempt me to say things I'll regret. I think I will just await for your evidence from Scriptures on how Jesus condemned organized religions. Until then, it is you who are the fool by constantly pretending you know what you are talking about but putting forth no evidence.

You hide behind the "spirit", but it is not the Spirit of God. God's Spirit has made it clear HOW Christianity will be practiced and has done so for 2000 years. We can look to Scriptures and find out what Christ and the Apostles taught. Yours is a new-fangled invention with precious little evidence from the Book inspired by that same Spirit of God. Since your proposals have no backing from Scriptures, just the opposite, I'll assume that you are NOT being moved by the Spirit in your ramblings. Constantly ignoring what the Spirit has written is proof positive that you are following another "spirit".

 

[Adullam]

Was Jesus against organized religion?

Not at all. Christ’s Church was and is hierarchical. He chose 12 apostles based on the OT 12 father of the 12 tribes. He made Peter the leader, and gave them authorities that all the other disciples did not have. Later, in Acts, the hierarchy develops further. The apostles appoint Deacons (greek - diakonos ), Priests (greek - presbyteros ), and Bishops (greek - episkopos), and each have different duties. It is still the same today

Not at all! Christ's church has no hierachies...There is One Lord and all of us are brethren. You are confusing the traditions of men with the biblical text.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even; and all ye are brethren.

As for authority...you forget Paul, Stephen, Agabus, Ananias the Damascan, the elders in Antioch etc....Authority comes through the Holy Spirit. One does not limit God as to whom He chooses to empower. Playing church is a carnal occupation.

You cannot find priests in the NT. You have inserted this according to your tradition again. There is no biblical basis for an exclusive priesthood that mediates between God AND OTHER BELIEVERS! All disciples are priests. Not the temporal kind with showy robes...but true ambassadors for Christ.


The institution of a priesthood inthe church was wrought through Constantine the pagan king. He wished for the "masses" to attend his "christian" temples in order to have all people in his realm become followers of the religion that had been adopted by the state. The resulting system became a syncretism of both Christian doctrine and pagan ritual. Some believers opted for this mistakenly thinking that this was God's will....rather than a test from God. The trojan horse of paganism into the church has effectively killed any authority it once possessed. We have been reaping the powerless gospel ever since. Until we forsake the ways of men and return to the living God.

Diakonos: This simply means servant. The churches required and still require servants to see to the needs of the brethren.

Presbyteros: These are the elders. The qualification for this group is to be...old! In the old days people used to respect the gray hairs.

Episkopos: Improperly translated as Bishop. The word literally means "overseer.' This man saw to the order in the church. This was a function, not an office. Lke a chairman. He was selected from among the elders to oversee in the meetings. Beyond the meetings he was just another brother, although respected as a mature one.

Churches are to be built on households of faith. A family is the smallest community unit, a building block in the divine community. Where 2 or 3 of these households, or even single brothers, gather (come together to share a common life) there is Christ in their midst.....there is the church!

The church at Antioch began with 3 brothers. Barnabas and Saul (Paul) joined them in their work at a later time. Notice the authority (through the Holy Spirit) in the midst of the original 3 to appoint both Barnabus and Paul to the missionary work they were to embark upon. Christ was the Head of that church!!!! They sent out the apostles (through the authority of Christ's presence among them) and not vice versa! :yes

"Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul." Acts 13:1

 

[Adullam]

I have consistently said that the relationship to both God and the brethren are required for discipleship. You have only been able to pick up on the one your brain misfires at. Your voices say that this is not possible. Christians see this type of reasoning in non-believers. Since I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and the new birth, you attack this...as you do not believe in a direct relationship with God. You believe in the intermediary organization of your church....which to you equals closeness to God. So you follow the cult of the RCC religion. This is not the same as being a Christian.

I don't think you are in a position to tell anyone who is and who is not a Christian, given the history of Chrisitanity includes "organized religion", which you would prefer, allied with the gates of Hell, to bring down...

It is satan who desires to bring down the Church, so any attempt to have God's children put aside what HE established is certainly from satan. :naughty

Our relationship with God is enhanced through Divine Liturgy, but you choose to dismiss something you know nothing about. The "intermediary organization" is in place BY Christ FOR Christ... We receive our birth from above THROUGH Baptism, a visible means where God has chosen to work through. And as you again conveniently ignore, baptism is always done by the community, through an organized religious body. Christ certainly could have chosen to actually DO AWAY with organized religion. However, as this overly long thread has shown, He never did. He did the OPPOSITE by forming a heirarchy and giving this heirarchy the power to bind and loosen. He gave them MORE rituals to follow. And in each case, we find various communities of followers, with leaders and structure and organization. Organization is abundantly found in the Scriptures among Christian believers. You have no concept of what Christianity is because you are not familiar with Scriptures and Christian history.


Wow!!!!!! There is so many errors and lies here the mind is boggled! Divine liturgy? Intermediary organization? Birth through child baptism or any baptism? Visible means?

These cultic statements are so outlandish as to warrant no comment. They are not within the realm of a Christian forum to discuss. I won't even ask for biblical references to these aberrations...they have nothing to do with Christ, whatsoever.

Vanity tends to express itself and its own. Just like you.

Nastiness makes what point?

Do you deny that you are vain with your comments? Sometimes the truth hurts, but one needs to hear it to reform.

You resist the truth.

This thread is about the dangers of human organization displacing the power of God.

No, it is about whether Jesus was against organized religions. :crazy

YOU are TRYING to make this into "the dangers of human organizations", which is quite bizarre. You refuse to see that it is the HUMAN WITHIN the organization itself that is the cause of the problem. The organization itself was not formed to prevent man from coming to God. That is clearly wrong.

Thus, whether THAT person is in the "catholic church" or whether he is on his own, the problem remains - his spiritual growth has stopped - perhaps reversed - as he becomes more proud in his own righteousness. The Catholic Church was formed by Christ for reason - to bring men of the world together in Christ. This organization protects the doctrine of the saints once given. Without such an organization, there is no "revelation". It is strictly opinions that are intermixed with modern day cultural biases, such as your own ideas of individualism. This was NEVER part of the cultural practices of 2000 years ago and is not found in Scriptures. You feel the need to reinvent Christianity into YOUR OWN IMAGE.... It no longer is a "revealed religion" given to us by God through the Apostles. Christianity as per Adullam has become whatever makes Adullam feel good about himself...

And if someone disagrees with Adullam??? Then they couldn't possibly be a "true" Christian, because "everyone knows" that Adullam is infallible because of the same "spirit". Whatever, dude...

Oprah and Dr. Phil would be proud of what you have done with Christianity. Twisted it from a revealed religion to a religion of conceit.


The institution that calls itself catholic (a stolen name) came into it's ecclesiastical power with Constantine the pagan. Catholicism is a syncretism of Christian doctrine and pagan tradition and ritual. To call these divine is blasphemy.


You stated...Without such an organization, there is no "revelation".


This denies that God can reveal something directly to a person. One cannot be born from above if the only way to receive revelation is at the hands of religious hierarchies. Rather, a saint is one who is born in the Spirit by the will of God. You don't know this, as you have only your carnal birth to draw from. You have been fooled into believing that water baptism cause you to become spiritually enlightened. This visible means is used by all sects to ininiate their members into their cult. But only God can open one's eyes to the eternal reality.

Men always try to know better.

Exactly, Adullam. Say that while looking in the mirror and you'll get my point. Thus, the necessity of having an organization that is BEYOND your own pitiful opinions. It is a guard against becoming too arrogant. It is MEN who think they know better, not the organization... The organization was formed with proper goals and the means to achieve that goal. It is when particular men go astray, esp. men in power, when problems begin. The blame is to be placed on men. Thus, leaving the organization because of particular men in search of some "holier way" is action in the wrong direction.

God still speaks directly to men. Apparently just not to you!

But God confounds the understanding of men...

Again, the prophet speaks but does not heed his own advice... Hypocrisy abounds where love has left.

And has been replaced by clericalism.

You are avoiding scriptures as you say. You deny the birth from above.

I never wrote or implied such nonsense. You have already preconceived notions of ALL Christians who worship as part of a larger community. Thus, when the subject comes up, I naturally "deny the birth from above". It is you who deny it, since you think only the "perfect" are "true" Christians. All "ordinary" Christians have not yet been "born from above". Wonderful... Your conclusion is woefully inaccurate - but I realize you won't believe that, since you are infallibly correct.

You have stated that a sect can baptize members into the Holy Spirit themselves through visible means. How very convenient! This is wishful delusion that only the "faithful" can be convinced of. The duped, as it were. Can you say brainwashing?

You hide behind the skirts of religious priests and rail against the truth.

Hiding? I rail against the truth??? :biglol

What a hypocrite...

Where is your evidence of Jesus speaking out against organized religion??? It is you hiding by constantly talking about everything BUT the topic at hand. You constantly ignore points that are made that hurt your paltry ideas of what God wants and how the Scriptures relates His desires to mankind.

I have grown tired of this. I am beginning to think these responses are merely trolls from satan to try to tempt me to say things I'll regret. I think I will just await for your evidence from Scriptures on how Jesus condemned organized religions. Until then, it is you who are the fool by constantly pretending you know what you are talking about but putting forth no evidence.

You hide behind the "spirit", but it is not the Spirit of God. God's Spirit has made it clear HOW Christianity will be practiced and has done so for 2000 years. We can look to Scriptures and find out what Christ and the Apostles taught. Yours is a new-fangled invention with precious little evidence from the Book inspired by that same Spirit of God. Since your proposals have no backing from Scriptures, just the opposite, I'll assume that you are NOT being moved by the Spirit in your ramblings. Constantly ignoring what the Spirit has written is proof positive that you are following another "spirit".

You don't understand the scriptures. You follow the RCC and call it divine. But you do not know Christ. So the above rant is spoken in ignorance. May the Lord not charge this sin against you. :yes

 

[Drew]

Can you explain why we dont have peaceful world if Jesus is reigning the earth right now?

This has already been satisfactorily answered. You are ignoring nature of kingship as understood in the time of Jesus contemporaries. When a king came to a throne, his reign begins and his agenda, such as being, for example, a peace-bringer, starts to be implemented.

In modern times we act the same way. Some might hail Barak Obama as some kind of "leader of peace". Does this mean that on the day after he takes offices people can legitimately say "Hey, there is still a war in Afghanistand Iraq so how can Mr. Obama be a leader of peace?"

No sensible person would not say such a thing since it is understood that he is "leader of peace" in the sense that peace will be achieved over the course of his reign.

So this objection of yours is countered. And of course, as I guaranteed, you have not engaged any of my arguments to show how they are mistaken.

Let's be clear on a point of methodology. If Jesus is not reigning, then each of the arguments I have presented has an error. If it has an error, that error should be identifiable.

The fact that you are not identifying such errors demonstrates that you cannot find an error in any of these arguments. If you could, why are you not telling us what the errors are?

 

[shad]

If you could, why are you not telling us what the errors are?

Your error is that you are presenting Jesus as powerless son of God that cannot bring peaceful earth that He promissed.

.

 

[francisdesales]

If you could, why are you not telling us what the errors are?

Your error is that you are presenting Jesus as powerless son of God that cannot bring peaceful earth that He promissed.

.

Your error is thinking that God must do things according to Shad.

How much power did Jesus manifest on the cross?

Had it occured to you that perhaps, God works in mysterious ways???