Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[thessalonian]

3. Pope Leo XIII, in 1891 – “No one can approach Christ except through His mother.â€Â

You're joking!!!!

You have got to be kidding me! I can't believe what I'm reading! I didn't think it was THAT bad. I guess my father wasn't exagerating then - I was beginning to think he may have been. Actually I was hoping against hope that he was. How horrible for God!!! My heart aches right now!

Well first of all we are not given the context of the statement which is important. But Mary is the spritual mother of all Christians. Read the end of Rev 12 where the devil went off to make war on the woman and her children, which is quite clearly all of Christianity. I know of no mother who would not pray for all of her children. Now how is it worship for someone to pray for someone else. Do you suppose it is worship of the Apostles because the 12 tribes of Israel are to be judged by them. You do not understand the depths of scripture. For you God leaves us where we are at and saves snow covered dung. For us God raises us up and gives us authority. He rewards us with greater things in the afterlife. Eye has not seen nor ear heard what God has ready for those who love him. Mary is not standing amongst the minions in heaven but she is the queen mother on the seat right next to Christ. "the queen sits at your right hand arrayed in gold". You would have her be just another one of the massess sitting in the middle of the crowd saying gee I wish I could speak to my son sometime. No, we do not all have equal roles and Mary was far greater than yours. Sorry that makes you jealous and what God had ready for her was far greater than what he has ready for you, however good that might be, if you persevere ot the end. No need to be jealous of this woman whom by his grace was the greatest woman ever to live.

 

[Solo]

Merry Menagerie,
Pope Leo XIII stated in his rosary encyclical, "Octobri mense" (1891): "Nobody can approach Christ except through the mother".

Thessalonian pretty well describes that that is his belief as well in his last post.

Mary is not my mother, nor is she my spiritual mother. Mary is awaiting the return of Jesus so that she can participate in the First Resurrection. Many Roman Catholics have been taught peculiar things about the Resurrection and return of Jesus because the truth undermines the strength of the papacy and the oracles of the RCC religion.

My spiritual parent is God the Holy Spirit not Mary. Mary and Peter would be turning over in their graves if they knew of the garbage being purported in there absence.

The Apostle Paul was the Apostle delivering the gospel of Jesus to the Gentiles. Peter was the Apostle to the Jews. Mary was the mother of the man Jesus. Jesus was God before his human birth.

Roman Catholics have been duped into a false gospel, and many fail to see the truth in the scriptures as it manifests the doctrines that are false in the Roman Catholic Church.

By the way, the scriptures manifest all doctrines that are false in all churches, local and universal, Christian and Non-Christian.

Michael

 

[Karma2Grace]

Works do play a part in salvation you must agree

Works play no part on salvation but sanctification, If works played any part on salvation then it is not Grace , You are saying the sacrifice of Jesus is not enough so the person has to work for his salvation !

Show me a proof from bible that salvation requires work

Any words about Purgatory or Immaculate conception?

[3] Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?
[4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
[5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.
[9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
[10] but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
Matt 25

[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
[35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
[36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
[37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
[40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'
[41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
[44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

There are many other verses that show ya better bear from fruit but I'm thinking these two pretty well speak for themselves.

blessings

I agree that every one will be rewarded based on their good works but it has NOTHING to do with Salvation. None of these verses says work is required for Salvation

The verses [35] to [46] is for Hypocrites those whom never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior, If a person is not showing his salvation (cause) through works (as a effect) then we can rightfully suspect his Salvation in the first place , But alternate is very possible there are people do ‘Good works’ (such as charity works) but that never Save them !

For example the people at right hand called 'righteous' (in verse [37]), do you think people righteous by their works?

Titus 3:5 He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which we have done , but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Salvation is the foundation that is not earned but given by Grace

1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ"

We need to work on the foundation and build (as a process of gratitude) , So work is a cause not effect of Salvation

At Judgment God will test the work of each man

1 Corinthians 3:12 "Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw"

1 Corinthians 3:13 "each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work"

Here is the highlight; the person will be saved even if his works were not good

1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved , yet so as through fire"


Don't you have any word about Immaculate Conception or purgatory (Don't say it is 1 Corinthians 3:15)?


Thanks

 

[thessalonian]

Works do play a part in salvation you must agree

I agree that every one will be rewarded based on their good works but it has NOTHING to do with Salvation. None of these verses says work is required for Salvation

What is "wrath and fury". :smt102 There is nothing inbetween doing good and doing evil. Those who have not done good get "wrath and fury". Those who have DONE GOOD are rewarded with eternal life. I don't see how this is hard to understand.

[quote:86572]The verses [35] to [46] is for Hypocrites those whom never accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior, If a person is not showing his salvation (cause) through works (as a effect) then we can rightfully suspect his Salvation in the first place , But alternate is very possible there are people do ‘Good works’ (such as charity works) but that never Save them !

The verse is not hypothetical. That's nonsense. This is talking about the judgement of mankind. Christ does not bluff.
One must be in Christ for good works to be of value I agree. But the fact of the matter is that you if go to the pearly gates without them, your damned to hell for all eternity. That is a fact.
For example the people at right hand called 'righteous' (in verse [37]), do you think people righteous by their works?

[quote:86572]Titus 3:5 He saved us, NOT on the basis of deeds which we have done , but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Being saved and salvation are not the same thing. Being saved is what happens when you become a new Christian. Salvation is persevering by the grace of God in being saved.

[quote:86572]Salvation is the foundation that is not earned but given by Grace

You rasie a false dichotomy in saying that because works are neccessary, they are "earned". We cannot do true good works without his grace so we do not explicitly earn them though we must do them. It is by the power of God (Eph 3:20-21) that they are done, i.e. by grace. Now for some reason this grace for Protestants seems to have no real power. For some reason it has to be swept under the rug. Very sad. Grace with no power or effect on salvation?

[quote:86572]1 Corinthians 3:11 "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ"

We need to work on the foundation and build (as a process of gratitude) , So work is a cause not effect of Salvation

[/quote:86572][/quote:86572][/quote:86572][/quote:86572]

I pretty much agree. But salvation is not a one time event but a lifetime process of faith working out in love. It is not the works themselves that save but the grace that prompts them. Why do you insist that this grace have no value toward salvation? Why is that neccessary?

Don't you have any word about Immaculate Conception or purgatory (Don't say it is 1 Corinthians 3:15)?

It is.
IC, well there is far too much for me to go in to. The ark of the coevant as a type of Mary for one thing. Luke parrellels Mary with the ark. Of course you will deny this. The ark was made to God's specifications and was so pure that the Israelites could not even touch it lest they die. I'll not waste my time with alot of detail on this because your not open to it. The angel also said "Hail Mary, full of grace". To be full of grace is not to have room for sin. You of course will deny, deny, deny.

Blessings to ya.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I know what I saw - it was crystal clear. The pope says that none of us can come to God but through His mother. Whatever the reason - it's there! And it goes against scripture! Completely against scripture!!!!!

I don't think I've seen anything as bad as that coming from the catholic church - I used to think that people were exagerating...now I know they were not

 

[Karma2Grace]

What is "wrath and fury". There is nothing inbetween doing good and doing evil. Those who have not done good get "wrath and fury". Those who have DONE GOOD are rewarded with eternal life. I don't see how this is hard to understand

So according to you a Hindu or Buddhist can be rewarded with eternal life as long as they are doing good works?

The verse is not hypothetical. That's nonsense. This is talking about the judgment of mankind. Christ does not bluff.

I am not saying Christ is bluffed but the people standing on the left side were not accepted Christ as their savior that's why they were condemned

Being saved and salvation are not the same thing. Being saved is what happens when you become a new Christian. Salvation is persevering by the grace of God in being saved.

Is there any difference between Salvation and Sanctification?

You rasie a false dichotomy in saying that because works are neccessary, they are "earned". We cannot do true good works without his grace so we do not explicitly earn them though we must do them. It is by the power of God (Eph 3:20-21) that they are done, i.e. by grace. Now for some reason this grace for Protestants seems to have no real power. For some reason it has to be swept under the rug. Very sad. Grace with no power or effect on salvation?

justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood: "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9).1 Justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7) that comes through faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1). Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12) and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12; 1 Pet. 2:24) and in so doing are justified by God. The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10).

I pretty much agree. But salvation is not a one time event but a lifetime process of faith working out in love. It is not the works themselves that save but the grace that prompts them. Why do you insist that this grace have no value toward salvation? Why is that neccessary?

You are again confusing between Salvation and Sanctification , OK for the sake of discussion let me consider salvation is a life time process, Tell me when it will start and when it will end? When it ends will it make man pure and holy so that he can enter in to heaven?

It is.
IC, well there is far too much for me to go in to. The ark of the coevant as a type of Mary for one thing. Luke parrellels Mary with the ark. Of course you will deny this. The ark was made to God's specifications and was so pure that the Israelites could not even touch it lest they die. I'll not waste my time with alot of detail on this because your not open to it.

I am open to it, Can you show me a verse from Luke that he parallels Mary with ark?

The angel also said "Hail Mary, full of grace". To be full of grace is not to have room for sin. You of course will deny, deny, deny.
Blessings to ya.

Nope I am not denying but the bible is denying you idea

Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"


Luke 1:46 "And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord"
Luke 1:47 "And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior "

Why she need savior if she is sinless?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Simply because she wasn't sinless. Only Christ was! No other human on earth was sinless but Christ!

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

 

[thessalonian]

Simply because she wasn't sinless. Only Christ was! No other human on earth was sinless but Christ!

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Including babies?

 

[Solo]

Simply because she wasn't sinless. Only Christ was! No other human on earth was sinless but Christ!

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

Including babies?

Are babies immortal or have they been born into the fallen nature given mankind from Adam?

If babies were not born into sin, they would be immortal. If not why would do they die as infants? God said that the wages of sin is death, therefore, a baby must be born into the sin of Adam. Why else would they have the propensity to sin as they grow older?

 

[thessalonian]

So according to you a Hindu or Buddhist can be rewarded with eternal life as long as they are doing good works?

Did you hear what I said before. Works that are of value must be in Christ. Why do you continue to misrepresent me as believing in salvation by works alone?

I am not saying Christ is bluffed but the people standing on the left side were not accepted Christ as their savior that's why they were condemned

I understand that part and agree with it. But where is the group that did accept Christ as their savior, but did no works and still got in to heaven?
You can't get around the fact that works are a part of the judgement process.

Is there any difference between Salvation and Sanctification?

That's an interesting question actually. Will anyone be in heaven who is not completely sanctified? The scriptures tell us "nothing unclean shall enter" in Revaltions (19??). However one who is not completely sanctified may in fact be "saved" such that if he died he would go to heaven. I don't think you can say they are equal but related. Now the question is do sins committed after the full justification of coming to be saved, have to be justified. I.e. is justification a process? I agree that sanctification happens after initial justification. Sanctification is actually cleansing of our souls beyond the sins that we committ from my perspective. However we committ sin after we are "saved" and these need justification. it makes no sense to justify a sin before it is committed. Hey, neighbor, sorry I broke your big window. "It's not broken". Oh well I was just getting that in before my brother and I start playing baseball in front of it. It will be by the end of the game. Doesn't work does it.

justification is based entirely on the sacrifice of Christ by His shed blood: "...having now been justified by His blood..." (Rom. 5:9).1 Justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7) that comes through faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1). Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12) and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12; 1 Pet. 2:24) and in so doing are justified by God. The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. [quote:1f366]

I think you if you look back in Psalm 14 which paul is quoting with that filthy rags thing you will see that it is with regard to the works of those who do not believe in God. How can you call God working in us and through us, producing thirty, sixty, 100 fold by his grace filthy rags.

Eph 3
20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.

These works are based on grace earned from his sacrifice. All is grace. Without him we can do nothing but without him we can do all things.


[quote:1f366]Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10).

Initial justification is completely free. How is it a contradiction to the free gift of salvation though to say that God gives us the grace to do the good that is required for salvation. If I give my kid 50 bucks to go to a football game was the game free for him? Yep.

You are again confusing between Salvation and Sanctification , OK for the sake of discussion let me consider salvation is a life time process, Tell me when it will start and when it will end? When it ends will it make man pure and holy so that he can enter in to heaven?

No confusion at all. I just don't agree that sins committed after initial justification are justified. Those sins commited after initial justification have to be justified as welll. It starts when we are made a new creation in Christ, at baptism. By the way, if one is not comlpetely sanctified does one go to heaven immediately? How are you assured that sanctification is done at the end of life?

I am open to it, Can you show me a verse from Luke that he parallels Mary with ark?

This has a variety of implications in Catholic understandings. I've met few protestants who can acknowledge it.

Both events took place in the hill country of Judah:

Luke 1
39. Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,

2 Sam 6
2. And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.

Similarity of David and Elizabeth's words in greeting Mary and speaking of the Ark.
luke 1
43. "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?

2 Sam 6

9. So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ark of the LORD come to me?"

John leaps before Mary who contains the Lord in her womb.
Luke 1
44. "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

David leaps before the ark in which the Lord resides.
2 Sam 6
16. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Mary stays with elizabeth for 3 mo.

56. And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.

The Ark stays with obemedon for 3 mo.

11. Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

Too many coincidences here for one to not draw a parrellel.

Nope I am not denying but the bible is denying you idea

Your talking perpetual virginity below. That has nothing to do with sinlessess. Sex is not a sin and that is not the reason Catholicism believes Mary was a PV. I don't have time right now but I posted a counter to your PV verses a couple of days back that shows that your verses don't prove what you think they do.

Luke 1:46 "And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord"
Luke 1:47 "And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior "

Why she need savior if she is sinless?

[/quote:1f366][/quote:1f366]

Let me ask you something. If I pull a man out of the mud have I saved him from the mud? Now suppose I see him sliding toward the mud and grab him such that he never gets in it in the first place, have I saved him? Yes. If Mary was sinless (and she was) it was not of her own doing but by the grace of God. Grace can cleanse our sins but it also has the power to keep us out of them in the first place.

Blessings

 

[Gary]

No Roman Catholic purgatory, no Roman Catholic works.....

But where is the group that did accept Christ as their savior, but did no works and still got in to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Roman Catholic purgatory, no Roman Catholic works. I trust Jesus and not the RCC.

.

 

[thessalonian]

No Roman Catholic purgatory, no Roman Catholic works.....

But where is the group that did accept Christ as their savior, but did no works and still got in to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Roman Catholic purgatory, no Roman Catholic works. I trust Jesus and not the RCC.

.

I had this in mind when I posted it. I knew someone would bring it up.
A group of one. How funny. You know what prayer in the Catholic Church is a good work. I have no doudt that theif prayed before he died. Admonish the sinner is a good work. He admonished the other theif. So in the time that he had he did what he could hanging on that cross. Sorry you loose. Please play again.


It's no proof against purgatory for serveral reasons. Those who are brought initially in to Christ are fully cleansed and sanctified of all sin. It is the sin afterward that would cause purgatory. Thus this theif would have gone straight to heaven. Of course you display your ignorance of Catholicism again.

More later -gotta go.

 

[Orthodoxy]

No Roman Catholic purgatory, no Roman Catholic works.....

But where is the group that did accept Christ as their savior, but did no works and still got in to heaven?

Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No Roman Catholic purgatory, no Roman Catholic works. I trust Jesus and not the RCC.

.

I had this in mind when I posted it. I knew someone would bring it up.
A group of one. How funny. You know what prayer in the Catholic Church is a good work. I have no doudt that theif prayed before he died. Admonish the sinner is a good work. He admonished the other theif. So in the time that he had he did what he could hanging on that cross. Sorry you loose. Please play again.


It's no proof against purgatory for serveral reasons. Those who are brought initially in to Christ are fully cleansed and sanctified of all sin. It is the sin afterward that would cause purgatory. Thus this theif would have gone straight to heaven. Of course you display your ignorance of Catholicism again.

More later -gotta go.

My dear catholic friend,

Can we say that Jesus died for the sins of the world past, present, and future?

Does not His "forgive them Father for they know not what they do" span all eternity past, present and future?

Are you included in "the worlds sins"?

Did Jesus's death on the cross miss some sins either yours or mine in the future shadow of the cross?

Does not our confession and repentance to the priest just acknowledge the sins we are already forgiven from in an eternal existance?

Do you think Jesus Christ forgave Mary of her sins at any time during her life?

What I mean is we confess our sins one to another so that we might be healed not forgiven as such. All sins have been forgiven but we must acknowledge them as sin and not hide anything.

I see confession, and I have discussed this at length with my priest, as confessing my sins before the entire Church body since sin is against the body of Christ, to be healed, acknowledging the sin to be prepared for the eternal judgement seat. We are not forgiven but we are sick, wont acknowledge our sins and need healing. Do you agree?

In respect and love,

Orthodoxy

 

[thessalonian]

Orthodoxy,

I think you misunderstand my post. Evangelical Christians many times justify their belief that one cannot fall from grace by saying that their past, present, and FUTURE sins are fogiven already on the day they become a Christian. i.e. if 20 years later, they commit adultery it was forgiven on the day 20 years before when he declared Jesus Christ Personal Lord and Savior. YES ALL SINS are forgive through Christ's death on the cross AMEN! The sins of the Old Testament, the sins of the time he walked the earth and your and my sins today. I agree with your post. It does not address what I am addressing.

God bless

 

[Orthodoxy]

Orthodoxy,

I think you misunderstand my post. Evangelical Christians many times justify their belief that one cannot fall from grace by saying that their past, present, and FUTURE sins are fogiven already on the day they become a Christian. i.e. if 20 years later, they commit adultery it was forgiven on the day 20 years before when he declared Jesus Christ Personal Lord and Savior. YES ALL SINS are forgive through Christ's death on the cross AMEN! The sins of the Old Testament, the sins of the time he walked the earth and your and my sins today. I agree with your post. It does not address what I am addressing.

God bless

Thank for agreement. I also agree the Evangelical Christians in most instances think forgiveness of sins equal salvation. But forgiveness is only half the equation. Jesus forgave all sins to remove the curse that killed man. Thus after the curse was removed then life is able to enter. What does a dead man whos sins are forgiven need? Life.

That is where the resurrection comes in. The protestant faith tends to end at the cross when there is an empty tomb before their eyes.

What are you addressing beyond that, can you explain better, I want to understand your point.

Blessings,

Orthodoxy

 

[Solo]

Orthodoxy,

I think you misunderstand my post. Evangelical Christians many times justify their belief that one cannot fall from grace by saying that their past, present, and FUTURE sins are fogiven already on the day they become a Christian. i.e. if 20 years later, they commit adultery it was forgiven on the day 20 years before when he declared Jesus Christ Personal Lord and Savior. YES ALL SINS are forgive through Christ's death on the cross AMEN! The sins of the Old Testament, the sins of the time he walked the earth and your and my sins today. I agree with your post. It does not address what I am addressing.


God bless

Thank for agreement. I also agree the Evangelical Christians in most instances think forgiveness of sins equal salvation. But forgiveness is only half the equation. Jesus forgave all sins to remove the curse that killed man. Thus after the curse was removed then life is able to enter. What does a dead man whos sins are forgiven need? Life.

That is where the resurrection comes in. The protestant faith tends to end at the cross when there is an empty tomb before their eyes.

What are you addressing beyond that, can you explain better, I want to understand your point.

Blessings,

Orthodoxy

Orthodoxy,

I believe you have a misunderstanding of what believers understand the scriptures to say. Once a person comes to a belief in Jesus Christ because they were drawn to him by God the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit, a transformation begins. The Holy Spirit begins to reside within that person, teaching him all things through the Word of God, whether that Word is spoken by an Apostle, Pastor, fellow believer, or whether the Word is read.

The sins of all were paid for at the cross where Jesus sacrificed himself for us. We were sealed unto the day of redemption (at the First Resurrection) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The cross is foolishness to the unbelieving, but power to those who believe. It is the glorious coming of Jesus that believers look forward to because it is then that we are redeemed from this corrupt flesh of sin.

Once a person becomes a believer and the Holy Spirit indwells him/her, that person is now alive forever more. God is the God of the living, not the dead, and the resurrection of the dead will be for judgment, while the resurrection of the living will be when the saints of God become immortal and incorruptible.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Solo

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Simply because she wasn't sinless. Only Christ was! No other human on earth was sinless but Christ!

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

A woman, caught in adultery, is brought before Jesus. Her accusers seek to trap the Lord by asking him if he will forgive her, (thereby denying the penalty of the law), or will he agree she should be stoned to death, (thereby failing to show mercy). Jesus answers them -

"Whoever is without sin among you, let them cast the first stone".

Suddenly, from the rear of the crowd, a sizeable rock is lobbed. It catches the adulteress woman in the temple and she is rendered unconscious. Jesus, rolling his eyes, :roll: cups his hands around his mouth and shouts in the direction the stone came from -

"You really know how to ruin a moment, don't you, mom?"

(Somehow, I am sure the point of this joke will be lost on Catholics/Orthodox?)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Simply because she wasn't sinless. Only Christ was! No other human on earth was sinless but Christ!

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

A woman, caught in adultery, is brought before Jesus. Her accusers seek to trap the Lord by asking him if he will forgive her, (thereby denying the penalty of the law), or will he agree she should be stoned to death, (thereby failing to show mercy). Jesus answers them -

"Whoever is without sin among you, let them cast the first stone".

Suddenly, from the rear of the crowd, a sizeable rock is lobbed. It catches the adulteress woman in the temple and she is rendered unconscious. Jesus, rolling his eyes, :roll: cups his hands around his mouth and shouts in the direction the stone came from -

"You really know how to ruin a moment, don't you, mom?"

(Somehow, I am sure the point of this joke will be lost on Catholics/Orthodox?)

Not at all.

Ever watch Mad TV? They had the Terinator go back in time to kill Judas. Jesus raised Judas back to life after the Terminator had wasted him twice with a shotgun, and Jesus said something to the effect of "you are really getting on my nerves."

 

[Orthodoxy]

Orthodoxy,

I think you misunderstand my post. Evangelical Christians many times justify their belief that one cannot fall from grace by saying that their past, present, and FUTURE sins are fogiven already on the day they become a Christian. i.e. if 20 years later, they commit adultery it was forgiven on the day 20 years before when he declared Jesus Christ Personal Lord and Savior. YES ALL SINS are forgive through Christ's death on the cross AMEN! The sins of the Old Testament, the sins of the time he walked the earth and your and my sins today. I agree with your post. It does not address what I am addressing.


God bless

Thank for agreement. I also agree the Evangelical Christians in most instances think forgiveness of sins equal salvation. But forgiveness is only half the equation. Jesus forgave all sins to remove the curse that killed man. Thus after the curse was removed then life is able to enter. What does a dead man whos sins are forgiven need? Life.

That is where the resurrection comes in. The protestant faith tends to end at the cross when there is an empty tomb before their eyes.

What are you addressing beyond that, can you explain better, I want to understand your point.

Blessings,

Orthodoxy

Orthodoxy,

I believe you have a misunderstanding of what believers understand the scriptures to say. Once a person comes to a belief in Jesus Christ because they were drawn to him by God the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit, a transformation begins. The Holy Spirit begins to reside within that person, teaching him all things through the Word of God, whether that Word is spoken by an Apostle, Pastor, fellow believer, or whether the Word is read.

The sins of all were paid for at the cross where Jesus sacrificed himself for us. We were sealed unto the day of redemption (at the First Resurrection) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The cross is foolishness to the unbelieving, but power to those who believe. It is the glorious coming of Jesus that believers look forward to because it is then that we are redeemed from this corrupt flesh of sin.

Once a person becomes a believer and the Holy Spirit indwells him/her, that person is now alive forever more. God is the God of the living, not the dead, and the resurrection of the dead will be for judgment, while the resurrection of the living will be when the saints of God become immortal and incorruptible.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Solo

You appear to have a bit of a spin on the resurrection. The dead resurrect to judgement but "living saints" on the earth are changed without judgement?

From your post my understanding of the protestant reformation is correct. The cross is everything and the resurrection ignored. You made my point.

God is the God of the living "dead" saints?

Tell me solo does the "spirit and soul" of a man die when the body dies?

Is the resurrection a resurrection of dead spirits and souls as well as the body?

From the understanding of the Church the resurrection is of the Body. The Spirit and Soul go on to a "foretaste" of the eternity it will "enjoy" when united with the body in the resurrection. All bodies will be resurrected either unto glory or unto damnation depending on the state of a man at death of the body. Example:

I die "in Christ". My body is buried. My soul and spirit live to have a foretaste of the "glory" after the judgement seat which I will enjoy in eternity when the resurrection of my body occurs. During this foretaste the "fire of God" burns off the chaff or "passions" in which I partook while alive in the body.

Example:

I die not "in Christ". My body is burned to a crisp in an incinerator. My soul and spirit live on to "enjoy" the eternity outside of God in His firey love. My soul and spirit experiance the passions unquenchable without my body. The resurrection of the body occurs and I spend eternity in the love of God hating it.

These are mere examples which are incomplete so please refrain from judging me to harshly.

Here again is a giant gulf between the Church's understanding and the protestant reformation.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Simply because she wasn't sinless. Only Christ was! No other human on earth was sinless but Christ!

All sin and fall short of the glory of God.

A woman, caught in adultery, is brought before Jesus. Her accusers seek to trap the Lord by asking him if he will forgive her, (thereby denying the penalty of the law), or will he agree she should be stoned to death, (thereby failing to show mercy). Jesus answers them -

"Whoever is without sin among you, let them cast the first stone".

Suddenly, from the rear of the crowd, a sizeable rock is lobbed. It catches the adulteress woman in the temple and she is rendered unconscious. Jesus, rolling his eyes, :roll: cups his hands around his mouth and shouts in the direction the stone came from -

"You really know how to ruin a moment, don't you, mom?"

(Somehow, I am sure the point of this joke will be lost on Catholics/Orthodox?)

Gee I thought I saw Pat Robertson cast that rock. ummm