Was Mary the MOST blesseded of all except Christ?

[Heidi]

A delusion is a fixed belief that cannot be supported in reality. Praying to people cannot be supported by the bible. So that is what is delusional.

But some people here just like to argue and cause dissention. Jesus taught us how to pray. Not once in his teaching did he ever say to pray to his mother! So making up a false gospel is what is delusional. And people who make up their own gospel don't just stop at one scenario. They take it to extreme degrees. The bible says that Jesus had brothers, and that the only sinless man was Jesus Christ. To make-up scenarios like Joseph having other children or that Mary was as sinless as Christ is another made-up gospel. And again, people who do this aren't fooling true believers or God, just themselves. Sorry.

 

[Orthodoxy]

A delusion is a fixed belief that cannot be supported in reality. Praying to people cannot be supported by the bible. So that is what is delusional.

But some people here just like to argue and cause dissention. Jesus taught us how to pray. Not once in his teaching did he ever say to pray to his mother! So making up a false gospel is what is delusional. And people who make up their own gospel don't just stop at one scenario. They take it to extreme degrees. The bible says that Jesus had brothers, and that the only sinless man was Jesus Christ. To make-up scenarios like Joseph having other children or that Mary was as sinless as Christ is another made-up gospel. And again, people who do this aren't fooling true believers or God, just themselves. Sorry.

Ok, my dearest Heidi. I have been told my endearing word "sweetpea" to express my utter joy of your sweetness towards the orthodox faith was out of line and "inflaming". My humblest apology for offending you. I merely meant to say your words are like honey in my mouth. Forgive.

Orthodoxy

 

[thessalonian]

Again you are looking at her 'works' like she 'earns' the right to be blessed. It was God's will to choose her - not mary's. She did not have a choice in the matter.

She sure didn't take long to come out with "be it done unto me according to your word". No resistance like Job. God didn't have to have her put in the belly of a whale for three days. Oh, I suppose you think that's a parable or myth or something. I for one am not looking at HER 'work'. I am looking at what GOD DID in her. How he prepared her for that day, gave her the grace, so that when the angle told her she would concieve and bear a son, she gave the immortal YES to bear the creator of the universe in her womb and give birth to him. When Elizabeth spoke of how blessed she was she responded "GOD HAS DONE GREAT THINGS FOR ME.". He had been preparing her for this day so that in true freedom when the angel told her of the greatest blessing man or woman has ever know would be bestowed on her, namely to have as her child the Son of the Most High God, she would say YES! The fiat! Praise God that she said yes. Recognize his work in her. There's no need to put Mary down and say, Ah, she's nothin.

I'm in relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ now. He abides in me...how much more am I blessed having the saviour of the world living in me? You see? No different.

I won't discount your blessing if that is truly where you are at. I will not judge that. But common, she had a son who was infinitely good and holy. She wateched as an example for herself his charity as he played with and helped others. She held him in her arms at night and as he slept she prayed. The object of her prayers was right there in her arms. She bathed him and changed him. She fed and clothed him. Do you say, "well that's not in the Bible"? It wouldn't surprize me if someone does. She kissed his forhead. There is no love like a mother's love for her child and Mary was able to love the God of the universe in a direct way that none of us, though we may well love him, will attain. That's simply fact. I know it bothers you to have this poor peasant woman exalted but it was not us who exalted her. It was the God of the universe. Rather than undermining what he did THROUGH her because we as Catholics acknowledge it, it would seem the humble thing to do is to acknowledge as she did "GOD HAS DONE GREAT THINGS" for her. This does not mean he hasn't and doesn't do great things for you and I. It simply means that God really pulled something off big to go so far as to put the whole story in scripture. Your inability to reflect on Mary and acknowledge that God pulled off one heck of a big miracle FOR MARY (and for you and I through her) is very sad. It is no slight on God to acknowledge this but it give glory to God. Like I say, false theology is a dead end to grace and this is but one example of such a dead end when Christians won't acknowledge the great things that are done in the lives of others.

Blessing

 

[Heidi]

A delusion is a fixed belief that cannot be supported in reality. Praying to people cannot be supported by the bible. So that is what is delusional.

But some people here just like to argue and cause dissention. Jesus taught us how to pray. Not once in his teaching did he ever say to pray to his mother! So making up a false gospel is what is delusional. And people who make up their own gospel don't just stop at one scenario. They take it to extreme degrees. The bible says that Jesus had brothers, and that the only sinless man was Jesus Christ. To make-up scenarios like Joseph having other children or that Mary was as sinless as Christ is another made-up gospel. And again, people who do this aren't fooling true believers or God, just themselves. Sorry.

Ok, my dearest Heidi. I have been told my endearing word "sweetpea" to express my utter joy of your sweetness towards the orthodox faith was out of line and "inflaming". My humblest apology for offending you. I merely meant to say your words are like honey in my mouth. Forgive.

Orthodoxy

You don't offend me, you offend Christ when you make up stories that contradict the bible. But it is apparent that doesn't bother you one bit. Therefore, you and I value completely different things.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Revelation 10:9
So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, "Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey."

Revelation 10:10
I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Again you are looking at her 'works' like she 'earns' the right to be blessed. It was God's will to choose her - not mary's. She did not have a choice in the matter.

She sure didn't take long to come out with "be it done unto me according to your word". No resistance like Job. God didn't have to have her put in the belly of a whale for three days.

So? Even fi she did resist - God would have done something or other. Some people resist - some don't.

Oh, I suppose you think that's a parable or myth or something. I for one am not looking at HER 'work'.

You most certainly are!!!

I am looking at what GOD DID in her. How he prepared her for that day, gave her the grace, so that when the angle told her she would concieve and bear a son, she gave the immortal YES to bear the creator of the universe in her womb and give birth to him.

So you should be honouring God for the work that he did in Mary and not exalting Mary in any way shape of form.

When Elizabeth spoke of how blessed she was she responded "GOD HAS DONE GREAT THINGS FOR ME.". He had been preparing her for this day so that in true freedom when the angel told her of the greatest blessing man or woman has ever know would be bestowed on her, namely to have as her child the Son of the Most High God, she would say YES! The fiat! Praise God that she said yes. Recognize his work in her. There's no need to put Mary down and say, Ah, she's nothin.

Did I say she's nothing? Show me where I've said that. What I have said and what I will continue to say is that Mary is my sister in Christ and I'm glad to have her as my sister - no more and no less. I certainly don't exalt her above God or anyone else. And I most certainly don't erect statues in her Honour.

I'm in relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ now. He abides in me...how much more am I blessed having the saviour of the world living in me? You see? No different.

I won't discount your blessing if that is truly where you are at. I will not judge that. But common, she had a son who was infinitely good and holy. She wateched as an example for herself his charity as he played with and helped others. She held him in her arms at night and as he slept she prayed. The object of her prayers was right there in her arms. She bathed him and changed him. She fed and clothed him. Do you say, "well that's not in the Bible"? It wouldn't surprize me if someone does. She kissed his forhead. There is no love like a mother's love for her child and Mary was able to love the God of the universe in a direct way that none of us, though we may well love him, will attain. That's simply fact.

But that doesn't make her more blessed than any of us. And there's no reason to exalt her because of this. God - yes...Mary - no!

I know it bothers you to have this poor peasant woman exalted but it was not us who exalted her.

OH yes it is! Your church exalts her!!

It was the God of the universe. Rather than undermining what he did THROUGH her because we as Catholics acknowledge it, it would seem the humble thing to do is to acknowledge as she did "GOD HAS DONE GREAT THINGS" for her. This does not mean he hasn't and doesn't do great things for you and I. It simply means that God really pulled something off big to go so far as to put the whole story in scripture.

But...*shakes head* Everything that God does is big! Everything! Everything he does has a purpose...everyone has a purpose and a plan for their lives. We are all one in Christ Jesus!

Your inability to reflect on Mary and acknowledge that God pulled off one heck of a big miracle FOR MARY (and for you and I through her) is very sad.

It wasn't FOR MARY it was for the world! mary was just a vessel...like you and I are vessels. Don't feel sad...I give all glory and honour to God and I exalt the one true God. And for that I don't apologise for.

It is no slight on God to acknowledge this but it give glory to God.

It gives glory to God to exalt mary?

Like I say, false theology is a dead end to grace and this is but one example of such a dead end when Christians won't acknowledge the great things that are done in the lives of others.

Then you don't know Christians

 

[thessalonian]

Merry,

It gives glory to God to exalt mary?

Why do you feel it neccessary to distort what I said. It gives glory to God to acknowledge how HE EXALTED MARY! HE DID IT GET IT! I made that clear.


God exalts man.

1 Pet 5
6: Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you.

God exalted Mary Merry. I know you don't want to acknowledge this. She was HUMBLE and he EXALTED HER! Praise God.

Blessings

 

[Merry Menagerie]

He exalted me too! Because of the humbleness that he put there! Are you going to erect a statue of me too then bow down to it?

No! Don't ...please don't! I don't want to be bowed down to, I just want you to honor God and him alone. Please don't look at me and honor me - I don't deserve it - it's all God! I wonder if Mary felt the same thing as I do now.

 

[thessalonian]

He exalted me too! Because of the humbleness that he put there! Are you going to erect a statue of me too then bow down to it?

No! Don't ...please don't! I don't want to be bowed down to, I just want you to honor God and him alone. Please don't look at me and honor me - I don't deserve it - it's all God! I wonder if Mary felt the same thing as I do now.

So was solomon wrong to bow down before Bethsheeba? Was the nation of Israel wrong to bow down before Jacob. Would you have stood by and condemned the Jews for bowing down before the ark of the covenant (jos 7) a graven image of sorts?

Bowing down is not always worship. It's sad how you are not open to the depths of scripture because you do not see whole picture and isolate verses. I feel very sad right now for you. I will pray.

God bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

It is when Catholics do it - I've seen it. They're not doing it out of respect for whatever - they're doing it because they are exalting Mary and think that she's the mother of the church and they're glorifying her. And before you argue...my father used to be a catholic and this is what the nuns taught him at school.

If this is not what you're doing then great but I know that there are those who do. Personally I would rather not bow down in reverence to anything just in case ;)

 

[thessalonian]

I just want you to honor God and him alone.

By the way, you really need to study the scriptures a bit better. They don't tell us to honor God alone. They say "honor your father and mother"

God makes men who are to be honored:

Jer 30
18: "Thus says the LORD: Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob, and have compassion on his dwellings; the city shall be rebuilt upon its mound, and the palace shall stand where it used to be.
19: Out of them shall come songs of thanksgiving, and the voices of those who make merry. I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will make them honored, and they shall not be small.

Who is supposed to honor these but other men.

Where the people wrong for honoring the Apostles:

Acts 5
12: Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon's Portico.
13: None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor.

Did Paul put a mistake in to scripture for the phillipians in telling them to honor those he was going to send to them?

Phil 2
28: I am the more eager to send him, therefore, that you may rejoice at seeing him again, and that I may be less anxious.
29: So receive him in the Lord with all joy; and honor such men,

The scriptures nowhere say to honor God alone as you have proposed. You have contradicted scripture.

God bless

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Not in the way that we are to honor God. We don't honor mary the way we honor God. We honor mary the way we honor anyone else - parents included.

And please don't say I need to study my scriptures better like you're about to enlighten me with something I've never seen before - I've been a christian for 20 years :roll:

I will not worship mary - end of story! And I disagree with anyone how exalts and worship her in any way shape or form. And I maintain that this is what the catholic church does, whether or not they SAY they do.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Oh and one more thing - I don't erect statues of my parents then bow down to them in reverance to them ;)

 

[thessalonian]

Not in the way that we are to honor God. We don't honor mary the way we honor God. We honor mary the way we honor anyone else - parents included.

And please don't say I need to study my scriptures better like you're about to enlighten me with something I've never seen before - I've been a christian for 20 years :roll:

I will not worship mary - end of story! And I disagree with anyone how exalts and worship her in any way shape or form. And I maintain that this is what the catholic church does, whether or not they SAY they do.

How have you become so good at judging the hearts and minds of men. I don't worship Mary. No way. Nor do I know ANY Catholics that do though I suppose there may be some somewhere. The Church does not teach she is God nor have any power in and of herself. End of story. Any acknowledgement of her is only in context of her son. End of Story. You don't know what you are talking about with regard to Catholicism. End of story. I would not ever recommend that you worship Mary. I guess you disagree with God because he exalted her.

By the way, I would not tell you to study the scriptures more. Your much to proud of you humility to listen to what anyone has to say anyway.

Peace out. :-?

 

[thessalonian]

Oh and one more thing - I don't erect statues of my parents then bow down to them in reverance to them ;)

So solomon was wrong to bow before his mommy.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

If he was worshipping her - yes! If not - no!

My father was brought up in the catholic church and was taught to worship Mary by Nuns!!! Enough said!

I will not erect statues of mary and bow down to them - end of story!

Good day to you

 

[thessalonian]

If he was worshipping her - yes! If not - no!

My father was brought up in the catholic church and was taught to worship Mary by Nuns!!! Enough said!

I will not erect statues of mary and bow down to them - end of story!

Good day to you

For you bowing down = worship. That is not the Biblical definition.
For you honor = worship. That is not the Biblical definition.
For you statues = worship. That is not the Biblical definition.
For you asking for prayes (of the deceased) is worship. That is not the Biblical definition.
For you exaltation is worship. Then God worships men.


Ya need to go with the Bible and not your prejudice against Catholics for having a view of GOD'S exaltation of those men who love him that raises our honor and glory to God. Oh wretched me and all other men causes you to not see HIM at work in them. It denies HIM glory. Sorry. End of story. Every idol that God condemned in the Old Testament was not a statue of a man who was faithful to HIM. It was an idol of some sun god of some planet or the moon or the sun. A god that did not exist. They looked to that piece of stone as what could actually bring about the good that they desired. I look to no statue as being able to do anything for me. It is simply a reminder of those who had faith.

Our statues remind us of those whom have been restored to the image and likeness of God. I worship no statue. It however is like a picture of my mom who died 20 years ago that reminds me of them and the faith they held to. The faith in God. The great deads he did through them that we should praise and honor them, and in so doing honor him, for. Do you think it is wrong to have a picture in your wallet or someone who has died?

Dont' bow down to statues. I don't care. I don't think anyone will go to hell if they don't as long as their heart is right. But this obsession you have with Catholics doing it and judging them as worshipping these statues because you quite CLEARLY do not understand it or the depth of scripture in these matters is very sad. I do not believe that your dad was taught to worship Mary. I think you have a skewed idea of worship.

Blessings though.

 

[Solo]

The Roman Catholic view of Mary is pagan, it is utterly pagan. Listen to what the [Roman Catholic] Church says,

1. Pope Benedict XV, in 1918 - “Mary suffered with Christ and nearly died with Him when He died, thus she may rightly be said to have redeemed the human race with Christ.â€Â

2. Pope Pius XI, in 1923 - “The virgin of sorrows shared the work of redemption with Jesus Christ.â€Â

3. Pope Leo XIII, in 1891 – “No one can approach Christ except through His mother.â€Â

4. The Catechism, in the Sunday Missal (Catholic Catechism) says, “My salvation depends on Mary’s mediation and union with Christ, because of her exalted position as Mediatrix of all grace.â€Â

5. Vatican II, said, “Mary’s intercession continues to win for us the gift of eternal salvation.â€Â

Roman Catholic Mary Worship by John MacArthur Jr. from http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/MARYCULT.HTM

 

[thessalonian]

Those views sound pagan to you because you do not understand redeemption and intercession. You do not really understand God working through his creation to bring about man's salvation. You do not undrestand that God works through men (and women). You do not understand the great work that God accomplished through Mary. Nothing she did was on her own. None of what is said about her is apart from Christ's redemptive plan. Nothing said about her is apart from HIS grace. Without him she could do nothing. It is interesting that there are no references for those quotes so that we can look at the context. Protestants never seem to want Catholics and others to be able to check out the context of what they quote. Likely because they do the same thing you do. Cut and paste and recycle the same old loaf of fruitcake.

Paul somewhere talks about himself saving others. He says:

2: And convince some, who doubt;
23: save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

You would have Paul's view as pagan it would seem. All the world was "saved" through Mary because she was the conduit by which ALL grace was brought in to the world and the plan of redemption was fullfilled. One can speculate all they want about how it would have been done had Mary not said yes, but these are the facts and you simply will not consider them. It's sad.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

God wants to get and gets in Catholicism full credit for his plan of salvation, because we are willing to acknowledge the depth and breadth of how he has done it through men and women, especially Mary. This gives him glory to recognize how he used them to bring about our salvation. No Pope would ever say that apart from God Mary ever did anything. No Pope would say that without Christ's redemption any man could have redemption through through Mary's intercession to the one who redeemed them.