Was Paul always correct?

[handy]

ok you believe in justice. Justice is rightousness. Often associated with government in some form OR God. To BE just is to be righteous which we are told the just shall live by faith. This applies to all believers and WE in christ Jesus are kings.

Is it just for a woman to not speak in church? YES because it is righteous. To be in order is righteous. Is it justice if you go to court and you get to yell out and speak what you please when it is time for those ordained-the judge and laywers are to be speaking? Would that be justice?

Now we are told that a woman can prophesy in church. She can sing pslams and songs etc... she can prob testify. But she has no office or postion to speak or teach over the church. That is out of order. God set in place firstly God- then Jesus- then Man- then woman.

Is it acceptable for my child to not speak when i tell him not to? of course it is. Likewise it is acceptable for the woman to not speak when it is not her term or the proper place for her.

Do you accept that women must be in subjection to their own husbands?

Agreed!

I do think Elijah, that perhaps your struggle is born more out of not understanding what is meant by wives submitting to their husbands or that women are to be silent, (which again, isn't that they weren't ever to speak but rather to hold their peace about things so that they could discuss them with their husbands.) God isn't being unjust to women

I can speak from personal testimony that when women ignore these things, they ignore them at a cost. When we follow God's commands, it always turns out better. By a long shot.

 

[Sound Silence]

These ideas are grossly outdated and it is downright misogynistic to hold them nowadays.

Explaining them away as "not as bad as they sound" doesn't help.

I certainly wouldn't want a woman submitting to me just because I'm her husband.

You use examples of a children obeying their parents, or a government, or God. These have nothing to do with the relationship of two adults of the opposing gender. A man has no authority and no rights of power over a woman.

I bet you think it's okay for a husband to force sex on his wife even if she doesn't want it, too.

 

[Menno]

These ideas are grossly outdated and it is downright misogynistic to hold them nowadays.

Explaining them away as "not as bad as they sound" doesn't help.

I certainly wouldn't want a woman submitting to me just because I'm her husband.

You use examples of a children obeying their parents, or a government, or God. These have nothing to do with the relationship of two adults of the opposing gender. A man has no authority and no rights of power over a woman.

I bet you think it's okay for a husband to force sex on his wife even if she doesn't want it, too.

If you read what Paul has to say about the relationship between a husband and wife, it is clear that husband has "more" responsibility.

For a wife to WILLFULLY submit to the leadership of her husband does not equate to the husband LORDING over his wife. Leadership and Lordship are two separate things.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

These ideas are grossly outdated and it is downright misogynistic to hold them nowadays.

Explaining them away as "not as bad as they sound" doesn't help.

I certainly wouldn't want a woman submitting to me just because I'm her husband.

You use examples of a children obeying their parents, or a government, or God. These have nothing to do with the relationship of two adults of the opposing gender. A man has no authority and no rights of power over a woman.

I bet you think it's okay for a husband to force sex on his wife even if she doesn't want it, too.

are you a christian?

the problem here with the way you are looking on this is that you believe that the idea of women that the culture has sold you as true, but in fact this culture and its femanistic ideas are exactly the opposite of that. Women are created a certian way, they have certian characteristics, qualities, strengths, virtues that ONLY we can be and do and accomplish. But this culture hates womanhood. Everything that is natural to us this culture says is evil and wrong and strives daily to pull us away from.

I would say that anyone even without the bible, who does not think a wife is blessed to submit to her husband does not know what a woman is and does not at all value womanhood whatsoever.

But in scripture there are two pictures of what a woman CAN BE- one that she should be, and one she shouldnt(which is the one this culture supports)

a good holy woman is a jewel to her husband. she is meek and gentle, loving, caring, she is strong in truth. She loves her children and raises them up, she respects her husband and loves him. She is a helper and a comforter. She brings grace and mercy and a soft word. She is not manipulative. She does not strive against her husband.She doesnt seek her own but the good of others. She bears all things.

The other kind of woman is whorish. She is manipulative. She is a liar and says what she needs to to get her way. She gossips. is a busy body. She offers herself to many men, if not to lay with her, just to lust upon her in their hearts and snare them. she doesnt care for others first but for herself first. She comes before any man or any children. She is cold towards them and wants her way more than to riase them.she is disobedient. she is not helpful to her husband. she doesnt support him. she doesnt comfort him. shw eill not bear all things, only enough till she stops getting what she wants and then she deserts everyone who loves her.


which sounds good? like a woman should be

 

[Panin]

I have trouble believing Paul was correct when he told women not to speak in church and that wives should submit to the wills of their husbands. What do you think?

When God said stone a woman to death for adultry was God wrong?


"when that which is perfect has come", means the finished word of God the finished 66 books, after that no more prophecy will come, or is required. So everyhing that Paul says in the inpsired word of God, is God speaking through Him, so no, Paul was never wrong.

Does that mean you have to agree with Him? No. But you are disagreeing with God, not Paul.

 

[Panin]

These ideas are grossly outdated and it is downright misogynistic to hold them nowadays.

Explaining them away as "not as bad as they sound" doesn't help.

I certainly wouldn't want a woman submitting to me just because I'm her husband.

You use examples of a children obeying their parents, or a government, or God. These have nothing to do with the relationship of two adults of the opposing gender. A man has no authority and no rights of power over a woman.

I bet you think it's okay for a husband to force sex on his wife even if she doesn't want it, too.

are you a christian?

the problem here with the way you are looking on this is that you believe that the idea of women that the culture has sold you as true, but in fact this culture and its femanistic ideas are exactly the opposite of that. Women are created a certian way, they have certian characteristics, qualities, strengths, virtues that ONLY we can be and do and accomplish. But this culture hates womanhood. Everything that is natural to us this culture says is evil and wrong and strives daily to pull us away from.

I would say that anyone even without the bible, who does not think a wife is blessed to submit to her husband does not know what a woman is and does not at all value womanhood whatsoever.

But in scripture there are two pictures of what a woman CAN BE- one that she should be, and one she shouldnt(which is the one this culture supports)

a good holy woman is a jewel to her husband. she is meek and gentle, loving, caring, she is strong in truth. She loves her children and raises them up, she respects her husband and loves him. She is a helper and a comforter. She brings grace and mercy and a soft word. She is not manipulative. She does not strive against her husband.She doesnt seek her own but the good of others. She bears all things.

The other kind of woman is whorish. She is manipulative. She is a liar and says what she needs to to get her way. She gossips. is a busy body. She offers herself to many men, if not to lay with her, just to lust upon her in their hearts and snare them. she doesnt care for others first but for herself first. She comes before any man or any children. She is cold towards them and wants her way more than to riase them.she is disobedient. she is not helpful to her husband. she doesnt support him. she doesnt comfort him. shw eill not bear all things, only enough till she stops getting what she wants and then she deserts everyone who loves her.


which sounds good? like a woman should be

True and did you know that the powers that be created womans lib and the feminist movement for the sole purpose of being able to take taxes from women as well as men?? A vote was the only way to track people, registar them and tax them. Hence they needed woman to registar to vote.

Femenism was the brain child of wicked greedy, evil men. Women did not invent feminism but many of them bought it.

That said, my wife is my equal, if not my better.

 

[Rick W]

Femenism was the brain child of wicked greedy, evil men. Women did not invent feminism but many of them bought it.

Well shut my mouth wide open! :o

He knows.
Not many do.

1995
Worked for a small outfit installing gas sensing systems in coal mines and bus garages.
Job done. Me, the chief engineer and wife of the business owner were at a lounge waiting for our flight back to Pa. The wife's tongue grew looser as the alcohol flowed. She was an officer in the local NOW organization. Found that out because the subject drifted toward that subject. Anyway, to keep it short she participated as much as she could for one reason, to get more women in the workplace to bring down the cost of employee salaries by reducing competition in the workplace. It was quite a conversation.
She slept on the plane all the way to Pittsburgh from California.


Anyway, I strayed off topic. It's easy to do isn't it?

 

[Sound Silence]

If you read what Paul has to say about the relationship between a husband and wife, it is clear that husband has "more" responsibility.

For a wife to WILLFULLY submit to the leadership of her husband does not equate to the husband LORDING over his wife. Leadership and Lordship are two separate things.

Sounds like some semantic gymnastics to me.

are you a christian?

Yes.

the problem here with the way you are looking on this is that you believe that the idea of women that the culture has sold you as true, but in fact this culture and its femanistic ideas are exactly the opposite of that.

The problem here with the way you are looking on this is that you believe that the idea of women that your culture has sold you as true, etc, etc, I could say the same about you.

Women are created a certian way, they have certian characteristics, qualities, strengths, virtues that ONLY we can be and do and accomplish.

Aside from obvious physical differences, not really. And 'we'? So you are a woman then. Really sad that you are handing yourself over to misogyny cuz some guy wrote something in a book.

But this culture hates womanhood. Everything that is natural to us this culture says is evil and wrong and strives daily to pull us away from.

If by "womanhood" you mean having no freedom from what men dictate whatsoever, then yah, I'd say they hate it something fierce.

I would say that anyone even without the bible, who does not think a wife is blessed to submit to her husband does not know what a woman is and does not at all value womanhood whatsoever.

That is simply crazy. Your ideas of this "womanhood" of yours are backwards and downright immoral, and goes against everything enlightened people have been working for.

But in scripture there are two pictures of what a woman CAN BE- one that she should be, and one she shouldnt(which is the one this culture supports)

a good holy woman is a jewel to her husband. she is meek and gentle, loving, caring, she is strong in truth. She loves her children and raises them up, she respects her husband and loves him. She is a helper and a comforter. She brings grace and mercy and a soft word. She is not manipulative. She does not strive against her husband.She doesnt seek her own but the good of others. She bears all things.

The other kind of woman is whorish. She is manipulative. She is a liar and says what she needs to to get her way. She gossips. is a busy body. She offers herself to many men, if not to lay with her, just to lust upon her in their hearts and snare them. she doesnt care for others first but for herself first. She comes before any man or any children. She is cold towards them and wants her way more than to riase them.she is disobedient. she is not helpful to her husband. she doesnt support him. she doesnt comfort him. shw eill not bear all things, only enough till she stops getting what she wants and then she deserts everyone who loves her.


which sounds good? like a woman should be

You are presenting a false dichotomy. There's a difference between being immoral, whorish, and disagreeable, and not submitting to a man just because he is a man, and doesn't act like a possession. Non-submission does not automatically equal all those things you said, no matter how much you would like to this so.

True and did you know that the powers that be created womans lib and the feminist movement for the sole purpose of being able to take taxes from women as well as men?? A vote was the only way to track people, registar them and tax them. Hence they needed woman to registar to vote.

So women shouldn't be able to vote because it was all a conspiracy by men to make money. Right.

Femenism was the brain child of wicked greedy, evil men. Women did not invent feminism but many of them bought it.

That said, my wife is my equal, if not my better.

Are we talking about whackjob feminism, or regular "women are people too" feminism?

 

[Panin]

Femenism was the brain child of wicked greedy, evil men. Women did not invent feminism but many of them bought it.

Well shut my mouth wide open! :o

He knows.
Not many do.

1995
Worked for a small outfit installing gas sensing systems in coal mines and bus garages.
Job done. Me, the chief engineer and wife of the business owner were at a lounge waiting for our flight back to Pa. The wife's tongue grew looser as the alcohol flowed. She was an officer in the local NOW organization. Found that out because the subject drifted toward that subject. Anyway, to keep it short she participated as much as she could for one reason, to get more women in the workplace to bring down the cost of employee salaries by reducing competition in the workplace. It was quite a conversation.
She slept on the plane all the way to Pittsburgh from California.


Anyway, I strayed off topic. It's easy to do isn't it?

 

[Panin]

"Sound Silence

So women shouldn't be able to vote because it was all a conspiracy by men to make money. Right.

Did I say that?

Are we talking about whackjob feminism, or regular "women are people too" feminism?

Depends on whether Im talking to a whack job or not, there are certainly a few here?

a little more silence would be nice, I like that sound.

 

[azlan88]

Have we become so politically correct that wives shouldn't submit to their husbands anymore? The commandment is very plain in Ephesians 5:22-24,

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing

And it is written again in Collosians 3:18-19,

18 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them.

Here's some food for thought: When two couples disagree over something(which always happens), who should be right? Some ask why the man should take precedence in a decision or argument. An apropriate counter question might be, 'Why the woman?' Women tend to be emotional, romantic, and zealous, especially toward their children. If your neighbor's dog bites your child, do you want your wife screaming about the child's safety and ranting about how the dog should have been on a leash, or would you rather settle the dispute yourself so that you don't lose a good neighbor or get involved in a lawsuit?

It would be even worse if your dog bit another man's child, in which case there would definitely be a lawsuit if two emotional mothers go at it. Again, one would be ranting about the dog, and the other about how the child never should have stuck his hand in the fence. In such a situation, the men of each households should settle the manner calmly, collectedly, and with the least damage done to each other's lives.

 

[JoJo]

Women tend to be emotional, romantic, and zealous, especially toward their children. If your neighbor's dog bites your child, do you want your wife screaming about the child's safety and ranting about how the dog should have been on a leash, or would you rather settle the dispute yourself so that you don't lose a good neighbor or get sued?

Yes, we are emotional, romantic and zealous, especially toward our children. But we aren't out of control. We can actually make sane, smart, well-thought-out decisions without losing our heads over a matter. Give us some credit, please.

 

[azlan88]

I never meant to imply that woman are incapable of making rational decisions.

 

[JoJo]

Coulda fooled me. :nag

 

[Cornelius]

We will either believe that Paul's writings are just Paul's writings (If you believe that, then please start searching for the true Word of God)
Or we can believe that the Word of God is the Word of God. Not written "in part" but every word in its correct place and every word meant by God Himself.

If not, then we truly are a sad lot. Then we have nothing we can truly rely upon as accurate. We cannot speak of the Bible then as the Word of God. We must then admit that we do not believe it to be as such, and that it is indeed just a collection of ideas that religious men wrote down.

I must admit that I am rather shocked. I did not realize how many Christians do not really believe that every word of the Bible is indeed the very words of God. :o

 

[Panin]

Women tend to be emotional, romantic, and zealous, especially toward their children. If your neighbor's dog bites your child, do you want your wife screaming about the child's safety and ranting about how the dog should have been on a leash, or would you rather settle the dispute yourself so that you don't lose a good neighbor or get sued?

Yes, we are emotional, romantic and zealous, especially toward our children. But we aren't out of control. We can actually make sane, smart, well-thought-out decisions without losing our heads over a matter. Give us some credit, please.

I think men are just as, if not more, emotional than women at times Jo Jo. I believe Christ revealed Himself to a woman first after his resurection to show how much He loves and respects women. God hinders our prayers if we are out of fellowship with our wives too.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

i think the enemy would like to distract from the realness of this situation here.(as many times happens)

yes i agree femanism was a ploy, i would add not only did they want to tax women, they wanted to break down families because that is a plank in the communist manifesto that they wanted to fulfill in this country(most have been now)

But even NATRUALLY speaking. We can see somethings about women that show us something. If you take a girl, who has never yet been hurt by a man. And she falls in love with a man and he becomes her husband. It is NATRUALLY in her to want to submit to HIM and it is NATRUALLY ina man to want to be submitted to, and to protect her.- Truly women are the weaker vessel. A woman who has not been hurt yet, and is fresh in love with want with all her being to please her husband. She will want to love on him and cuddle on him. She will hang on his every word and seek to protect his heart. She will repect him and look up to him. She will think well of Him and want to be there to help with all things he needs. Not out of having too, or him asking but it will just be the desire of her heart. She will be walking around taking into consideration what she could do to make his day better, his life easier. How to help him lift his burdens.-(this is a NATURAL woman, not just a saved woman.) - and likewise the man naturally if he loves her will want to protect her and keep her safe. He will think of her to help her do the things that are beyond a womans strength and ability. His heart will be softened by her loving voice. He will naturally want to confide in her and if he has not been hurt before, He will confide in her trusting that she is worthy to hold all his heart and secrets.As a man He will desire to provide for her. When he has had a hard day in the world being a man, he will look to her comforting arms at home.

Sadly the problem is that so many people these days get into relationships so early that they get hurt already by a young age and no one almost who gets married, gets a person ready to be married to them, but one already damaged.

 

[prough91]

Having a wife that submits is an awesome and humbling responsibility. People need to quit reading the Bible through the slant of political correctness.

 

[elijah23]

If Paul isn't correct, I need to rip out over half of my New Testament.

I think Paul has some marvelous advice—I would read his letters carefully. That doesn’t mean I believe he was right about everything. My pastor isn’t right about everything, I don’t think. That doesn’t mean I don’t learn things from him.

 

[elijah23]

You are correct, justice is justice - however, how are you defining justice?

Again, Justice does not always mean equal. Society and our world, wants to make justice about equality - the ole "eye for an eye".... Showing compassion is justice, but not necessarily equality.

I cannot give birth, does that mean God has been unjust?

I’m just trying to say that I think we all have been born with a sense of justice. Why else would the Lord have commanded us to be just? I don’t need the Bible to know that it’s wrong to kill an innocent person, do I? I also believe justice requires equal rights for all people.