WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[JLB]

There is one verse in the N.T. that I can think of that states that if you've broken one law ,,,, you've broken them all....but it means we could not keep the law.

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10


The law of Moses had the sacrificial system because God knew man needs to have a way to be forgiven, as well as a penalty to motivate man not to sin.

Jews, and we know how a Jews are, didn’t like giving up a prized animal of theirs as a payment for the penalty of sin.


Remember, the Lord would tell them to bring not the sickly animals but the best ones, without spot or blemish.


And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice,
Is it not evil?
And when you offer the lame and sick,
Is it not evil?
Offer it then to your governor!
Would he be pleased with you?
Would he accept you favorably?”
Says the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 1:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree.
My contention is that we are still under the Moral Law....which is the 10 commandments...which Jesus narrowed down to 2.

Please explain to us how the Church is instructed to keep the Sabbath today, under the New Covenant?



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Please explain to us how the Church is instructed to keep the Sabbath today, under the New Covenant?



JLB

Keeping the Sabbath is a ceremonial law and we are not obligated to keep it.
It has been abolished.

However, is someone feels they SHOULD keep the Sabbath because it is one of the commandments, then they should follow they're conscience.

 

[GodsGrace]

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10


The law of Moses had the sacrificial system because God knew man needs to have a way to be forgiven, as well as a penalty to motivate man not to sin.

Jews, and we know how a Jews are, didn’t like giving up a prized animal of theirs as a payment for the penalty of sin.


Remember, the Lord would tell them to bring not the sickly animals but the best ones, without spot or blemish.


And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice,
Is it not evil?
And when you offer the lame and sick,
Is it not evil?
Offer it then to your governor!
Would he be pleased with you?
Would he accept you favorably?”
Says the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 1:8


JLB

Must go. 1 am here.
Not sure of your point with the above.
I understand the 1st two paragraphs...but why the rest??

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All this is very confusing to me.
There is one verse in the N.T. that I can think of that states that if you've broken one law ,,,, you've broken them all....but it means we could not keep the law.

You did mention Hebrews 11.
What saved persons in the O.T. is the same as what saved them in the N.T.
Noah was a righteous man...right with God.
Abraham had faith....Galatians 3:7 .....
Faith in God has always saved man.

As to Galatians 3:12...don't you believe this is salvation by our works ONLY and not by faith?
If someone had faith AND tried to keep the law because that is what he was taught by his Rabbi...then surely he was saved.

As Paul said, the OT law is not of faith. Under the OT law, one could have all the faith he could have yet the first time he sinned he brought the curse of the law upon him. The OT law does not forgive, it only condemns. Without the blood of Christ, then the only way to be perfect under the OT law before God was through strict flawless law keeping. I see in the latter part of Romans 7 Paul, using himself as an example of all Jews under the law, is explaining the difficulty the Jew had living under the OT law. No matter how much he loved the OT law and wanted to keep it he would always end up sinning, doing what he did not want to do. Romans 8:1 but "now" in Christ as a Christian there is no condemnation as there was back then under the OT law.

 

[JLB]

Keeping the Sabbath is a ceremonial law and we are not obligated to keep it.
It has been abolished.

Amen.

I agree.

So why refer to the 10 Commandments?

That’s my point.


The New Testament doesn’t refer to the 10 Commandments.


Just Commandments.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5



Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3





JLB

 

[JLB]

Under the OT law, one could have all the faith he could have yet the first time he sinned he brought the curse of the law upon him.

Which is why the Lord gave them the innocent animals, to make atonement for their sins, so He could continue to bless them with the blessings of Abraham, which enabled them to posses the promised land; to subdue it and dominion.

In this way, what he swore to Abraham would come to pass.


This is what Moses reminded the Lord of, when He wanted to eradicate the stubborn children of Israel, In His wrath.


See, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to your fathers—to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—to give to them and their descendants after them.’
Deuteronomy 1:8



Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Deuteronomy 26:3-5






JLB

 

[mozo1]

it is not abolished - it is to be establish/observed as Jesus and paul said - Romans 3:30-31 - Matthew 5:17-19 - Matthew 13:52 - Matthew 5:19

to understand the law which Jesus fulfilled in himself by his walk, one has to start at the beginning of the book where it is first spoken ....

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Which is why the Lord gave them the innocent animals, to make atonement for their sins, so He could continue to bless them with the blessings of Abraham, which enabled them to posses the promised land; to subdue it and dominion.

In this way, what he swore to Abraham would come to pass.


This is what Moses reminded the Lord of, when He wanted to eradicate the stubborn children of Israel, In His wrath.


See, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to your fathers—to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob—to give to them and their descendants after them.’
Deuteronomy 1:8



Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Deuteronomy 26:3-5






JLB

And the problem with those animal sacrifices is they could not take away sin Hebrews 10:1-4 as the blood of Christ can. Therefore the OT law could not justify a person leaving sinless perfection in keeping all the law flawlessly as the only way one could perfect before God. This leaves the question as to why would anyone want to go back to the OT law that cannot justify?

 

[JLB]

And the problem with those animal sacrifices is they could not take away sin Hebrews 10:1-4 as the blood of Christ can.

Amen.

Which is why the Old Testament saints were contained in the heart of the earth, rather than go to heaven, until Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Therefore the OT law could not justify a person leaving sinless perfection in keeping all the law flawlessly as the only way one could perfect before God.

When you use the term Old Testament Law, you may be leaving your perspective open to be refuted.


That’s why I specifically call it, the law of Moses, not the
Old Testament.



There were many who were justified in the Old Testament before Moses gave the law.


Abraham.



JLB

 

[JLB]

to understand the law which Jesus fulfilled in himself by his walk, one has to start at the beginning of the book where it is first spoken ....

Please share a little bit about what you are referring to.



Welcome to the Forum.

Glad to have you.



JLB

 

[mozo1]

Please share a little bit about what you are referring to.



Welcome to the Forum.

Glad to have you.



JLB

thank you ... glad to be here

i am referring to the commandment God spoke to Adam ....

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

When you use the term Old Testament Law, you may be leaving your perspective open to be refuted.


That’s why I specifically call it, the law of Moses, not the
Old Testament.



There were many who were justified in the Old Testament before Moses gave the law.


Abraham.



JLB

I understand what you are saying.

Before the law of Moses the was what many call the "Patriarchal Law" which Abraham lived under. No one that lived under either Patriarchal law or law of Moses had the blood of Christ to take away their sins, even the sacrifices Abraham made upon altars could not take away his sins. Therefore these two types of laws found within the OT both required strict flawless adherence to be perfect before God.

Romans 3:20 " Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:..."
Romans 3:28 " Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

I believe when Paul uses the word "law" as in these two verses, he is primarily referring to the law of Moses but he is also including any law that requires strict, flawless adherence in order to be justified as the law of Moses and Patriarchal law both required.

Even though these two OT laws could not justify a man since they required strict flawless obedience, yet God can justify. God would justify Abraham because he was obedient to God's will though not perfectly obedient. All God ever required of man was a simple faithful obedience not sinless perfection as those OT laws required.

So Abraham was justified before God NOT due to the work of perfect law keeping ("worketh not" per Romans 4:5**) but due to his obedient belief.

(**Some mistakenly think "worketh not" excludes all works of all kinds including obedience to God. But in context Paul is excluding the work of flawless law keeping as required by the OT law, Paul is contrasting flawless law keeping versus a faithful obedience.)

When Christ did come to earth and die and shed His blood, His blood then flowed back and cleansed away all the sins of all those faithfully obedient OT characters as Abraham made them pure, perfect before God Hebrews 9:15.

So the redemption of those under those OT laws was just as dependant upon the shed blood of Christ as our redemption today is and not through perfect law keeping.

Christ provided something (total, complete forgiveness of sins) which those OT laws could not. Christ providing what He did on the cross for man made way for God to bring in His NT getting rid of the OT and what it could not do.

 

[GodsGrace]

As Paul said, the OT law is not of faith. Under the OT law, one could have all the faith he could have yet the first time he sinned he brought the curse of the law upon him. The OT law does not forgive, it only condemns. Without the blood of Christ, then the only way to be perfect under the OT law before God was through strict flawless law keeping. I see in the latter part of Romans 7 Paul, using himself as an example of all Jews under the law, is explaining the difficulty the Jew had living under the OT law. No matter how much he loved the OT law and wanted to keep it he would always end up sinning, doing what he did not want to do. Romans 8:1 but "now" in Christ as a Christian there is no condemnation as there was back then under the OT law.

Hi ETB

I don't know if you realize how much stuff you've put on my plate!
But I'll give it a go.....

The reason we had sacrifice in the O.T. is because man sinned. He asked forgiveness and offered a sacrifice to God, based on his ability, to forgive him his sins....even the ones he had forgotten.
This was done in the hopes that God would forgive....a person still required faith...if a person did this as a matter of rote, then it was not sufficient to save. In the O.T. God saw many men as being unrighteous. The neighbors of Noah....those in the land of Sodom...those to whom God sent Prophets in order for them to teach the laws of God.

We must always remember that Jesus died for ALL MEN and for ALL SINS, those in the past, present and future. He died even to forgive men in the O.T. of their sins based on their faith....even though they were taught that they had to make sacrifices time after time.
To this day, everyone that is saved, is saved through the blood of Christ --- even those that love God but do not know about Jesus --- it is HIS sacrifice that saves all men that wish to be saved.

Men in the O.,T. times had difficulty keeping the Law because they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling. The Holy Spirit was always on the earth,,,but it was not IN MAN, indwelling, till Jesus went away and sent the Holy Spirit in His place....John 16:7.

You brought up Romans 7.
Then Romans 8 says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Why?
Paul says why. Because the POWER of the Holy Spirit, given through Jesus, has freed Paul from death and sin.
How?

Because after the fall we became slaves to sin...
Jesus died to free us as slaves from satan.
He bought us back to Himself. So that we are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to God.
The death penalty has been removed from our debt because Jesus has died in our place.
This is what it means when we say that Jesus died for us.

But see what Romans 8:4 states: We can NOW OBEY God's laws IF we follow after the Holy Spirit, Who is our helper.

Paul does NOT say that we are no longer to obey God's commandments (Moral)...but that we now have the POWER to do so. We STILL must not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit..but now we can.

Romans 8:4
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen.

I agree.

So why refer to the 10 Commandments?

That’s my point.

The New Testament doesn’t refer to the 10 Commandments.

Just Commandments.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:4-5

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


JLB

I refer to the 10 commandments because there are 10 commandments.
We could debate if there are 9 or 10....but, for now, there are 10 listed everywhere, so that's what I go by.

Jesus said HIS 2 commandments would cover all of the 10,,,even the Sabbath command. (we still have one day of rest..whatever that day may be...AND, under the N.C. our rest is in Christ, every day).

Commands in the N.T. are whatever Jesus taught us to do....
which are actually more than 10 because Matthew 5:3-9 are not even listed in the 10.

The other reason I refer to the 10 is because it is the Moral Law and the Moral Law has not been abolished and will live forever till the end of time.

If this is not accepted...I cede...however, it is how it is.
The Moral Law,,,the 10 commandments, are still in full force.

 

[GodsGrace]

And the problem with those animal sacrifices is they could not take away sin Hebrews 10:1-4 as the blood of Christ can. Therefore the OT law could not justify a person leaving sinless perfection in keeping all the law flawlessly as the only way one could perfect before God. This leaves the question as to why would anyone want to go back to the OT law that cannot justify?

WHO wants to go back to the O.T. Law?

Both you and Drew are having difficulty understanding what is being said.
I think because you concentrate too much on what YOU believe and are not LISTENING to what others are saying.....

No one wants to go back to the O.T. Law.
It's not even POSSIBLE.

 

[JLB]

I refer to the 10 commandments because there are 10 commandments.
We could debate if there are 9 or 10....but, for now, there are 10 listed everywhere, so that's what I go by.

I love the 10 Commandments.

I commissioned a famous calligraphy artist to do the 10 Commandments and have it framed in my prayer closet.

I quote the 10 Commandments quietly throughout the day, and meditate on them.

Please don’t think I’m against the 10 Commandments.


Is not committing homosexuality or sodomy or drunkenness or fornication or extortion or heresy or contentions or sorcery or wrath or revelries or blaspheming the Holy Spirit... mentioned in the 10 Commandments?


There are many more commandments than 10.



I try to say what scripture says so as to keep the arguing to a minimum.



JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

WHO wants to go back to the O.T. Law?

Both you and Drew are having difficulty understanding what is being said.
I think because you concentrate too much on what YOU believe and are not LISTENING to what others are saying.....

No one wants to go back to the O.T. Law.
It's not even POSSIBLE.

Anyone today that says the 10 commandments are binding and should be obeyed is going back to the OT law. Again, under the OT law of Moses justification required flawless obedience to ALL of that law. Therefore keeping the 10 commandments cannot justify.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi ETB

I don't know if you realize how much stuff you've put on my plate!
But I'll give it a go.....

The reason we had sacrifice in the O.T. is because man sinned. He asked forgiveness and offered a sacrifice to God, based on his ability, to forgive him his sins....even the ones he had forgotten.
This was done in the hopes that God would forgive....a person still required faith...if a person did this as a matter of rote, then it was not sufficient to save. In the O.T. God saw many men as being unrighteous. The neighbors of Noah....those in the land of Sodom...those to whom God sent Prophets in order for them to teach the laws of God.

The OT law and those sacrifices could not justify. Only flawless keeping of that OT law would justify and none could keep it perfectly, other than Christ. Therefore faith played no part of the OT and justification of man.

We must always remember that Jesus died for ALL MEN and for ALL SINS, those in the past, present and future. He died even to forgive men in the O.T. of their sins based on their faith....even though they were taught that they had to make sacrifices time after time.
To this day, everyone that is saved, is saved through the blood of Christ --- even those that love God but do not know about Jesus --- it is HIS sacrifice that saves all men that wish to be saved.

But back under the OT law of Moses when it was still in effect, those Jews did not have the shed blood of Christ simply because it had not yet been shed. All they had was the blood of bulls and goats that could not take away sin and justify. If the blood of bulls and goats could justify then no reason for Christ to shed His blood nor any need for the NT.

Men in the O.,T. times had difficulty keeping the Law because they did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling. The Holy Spirit was always on the earth,,,but it was not IN MAN, indwelling, till Jesus went away and sent the Holy Spirit in His place....John 16:7.

The reason they sinned was because no one, other than Christ, is perfectly sinless. There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit that will keep a man from sinning thereby be perfectly sinless...as Paul declared 'all have sinned'. The Apostles had a miraculous indwelling of the Holy Ghost but still sinned.

You brought up Romans 7.
Then Romans 8 says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
Why?
Paul says why. Because the POWER of the Holy Spirit, given through Jesus, has freed Paul from death and sin.
How?

Because after the fall we became slaves to sin...
Jesus died to free us as slaves from satan.
He bought us back to Himself. So that we are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves to God.
The death penalty has been removed from our debt because Jesus has died in our place.
This is what it means when we say that Jesus died for us.

There was condemnation under the OT law for all it did was condemn when a person committed one sin, it showed no mercy, no forgiveness. But it is not like this under the NT for Christians are those who are in Christ clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness therefore seen as perfect by God through Christ. Again, they did not have this under the OT law. As long as the Christian walks in the light, then Christ's blood washes away all sins leaving the Christi spotless, blamess, with wrinkle...perfect before God (2 Peter 3:14; Ephesians 5:27). Again, this s something they did not have under the OT law of Moses.

But see what Romans 8:4 states: We can NOW OBEY God's laws IF we follow after the Holy Spirit, Who is our helper.

Paul does NOT say that we are no longer to obey God's commandments (Moral)...but that we now have the POWER to do so. We STILL must not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit..but now we can.

Romans 8:4
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:3 " For what the law could not do,..."

Paul speaks of what that OT law could not do, as I mentioned above the things it could not do, it could not take away sin, could not forgive, could not bring a person to "no condemnation" as the NT can.

Why could the OT law not bring one "no condemnation"? ".... in that it was weak through the flesh ...". The OT required flawless law keeping to not be condemned but human flesh is too weak to keep it perfectly. Nothing was wrong with the OT law God gave it was only weak pertaining to man's flesh. This was the 'fault" God saw with the OT (Hebrews 8:7-8). Had 'flesh' been able to keep the OT covenant perfectly, then no need for a second covenant (NT).

" ...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: " What the OT law could not do God did by sending Christ to die for man's sins, shed His blood making Christ a propitiation for man's sins. Man's sins could then all be washed away by the blood of Christ, God remembers those sins no more leaving a man totally justified before God.

Romans 8:4 " That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. "
Again, that OT law required strict, flawless law keeping, required fulfilling ALL those laws perfectly which the Jew could not do. Yet this flawless law keeping the OT law required was fulfilled in Christ in that Christ did keep it perfectly. So being "in Christ" and faithfully remaining in Christ the Christian is seen by God as being as sinless as Christ.

Those who are in Christ are those who walk not after the flesh (Romans 6:2 the Christian is one who dead to sin) but after the Spirit. To walk after the Spirit means one obeys the Spirit's word, the Bible, and live life according to that word.

Paul is writing this to Christians, those who walk after the Spirit and as long as they continue to obey the Spirit's word they will continue to have Christ's blood wash away all their sins leaving them without spot and blame before God.