WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[JLB]

There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding as to what the Law is.

That is correct.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is correct.

But why?
I refer to the Moral Law......
NOT the Law of Moses which is 613 ordinances.

I'd also like to say to you that not everyone knows the scriptures as well as you do
and not always do verses come to mind as they do for you.

However, the concept is the same....what I've been taught is the same...
We are not under the Law......
FEAR

We are under grace.....
LOVE

But because we are under grace does not mean the Moral Law,,,the 10 commandments...the Law of God...has been abolished.

God expects us to obey Him just as Adam and Eve were supposed to obey Him.

 

[JLB]

But why?
I refer to the Moral Law......
NOT the Law of Moses which is 613 ordinances.

I'd also like to say to you that not everyone knows the scriptures as well as you do
and not always do verses come to mind as they do for you.

However, the concept is the same....what I've been taught is the same...
We are not under the Law......
FEAR

We are under grace.....
LOVE

But because we are under grace does not mean the Moral Law,,,the 10 commandments...the Law of God...has been abolished.

God expects us to obey Him just as Adam and Eve were supposed to obey Him.

I had a whole post done and went to get some more coffee and it disappeared.




There is the law of the Lord: “Moral Law” — Royal Law of Love

Law of sin and death

Law - Torah; Five five books of the Bible

Law of Moses

Law of Faith

Law of sowing and reaping




JLB

 

[JLB]

We are not under the Law......
FEAR

We are under grace.....
LOVE

There are greater consequences under grace; under the Spirit of grace.


To whom much is given, much is expected.

So much is misunderstood about our relationship with the Lord.

He desires to walk with us and teach us directly, as a father teaches a son.


We are always trying to learn from other sources.


This is how Abraham learned.



JLB

 

[JLB]

But because we are under grace does not mean the Moral Law,,,the 10 commandments...the Law of God...has been abolished.

Why are you stuck on the “10 Commandments“?


What‘s wrong with saying “His Commandments“, since we have already seen that the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses is not required, and that there are many more commandments than 10.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


Scripturally you can defend “His Commandments“.


You can’t scripturally defend “10 Commandments“.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I had a whole post done and went to get some more coffee and it disappeared.




There is the law of the Lord: “Moral Law” — Royal Law of Love

Law of sin and death

Law - Torah; Five five books of the Bible

Law of Moses

Law of Faith

Law of sowing and reaping




JLB

OK.
I'm referring to the Royal Law of Love.

You had started a dictionary of biblical terms....but I fear
we will never be speaking the same language.
(I mean all Christians).
This is why sometimes it takes a couple of posts before two members really know if they're on the same page....

 

[GodsGrace]

There are greater consequences under grace; under the Spirit of grace.


To whom much is given, much is expected.

So much is misunderstood about our relationship with the Lord.

He desires to walk with us and teach us directly, as a father teaches a son.


We are always trying to learn from other sources.


This is how Abraham learned.



JLB

Agreed on all.
But learning from other sources is normal....
I know that you like to read and must have learned from many sources.
I agree with you that what we use for support should be from scripture,
but we DO learn from other sources also.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why are you stuck on the “10 Commandments“?


What‘s wrong with saying “His Commandments“, since we have already seen that the Sabbath as required by the law of Moses is not required, and that there are many more commandments than 10.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


Scripturally you can defend “His Commandments“.


You can’t scripturally defend “10 Commandments“.




JLB

Scripturally the 10 commandments can be defended because they were all spoken of in the N.T.

In just one parable.....The Rich Young Ruler,,,,Jesus names at least half of the 10 commandments.
Jesus said to keep the commandments in order to enter into life. What commandments could Jesus have meant? He was Jewish and was raised to follow the commandments,,,and He followed them perfectly, thus fulfilling them. Jesus told the §RYR:
do not commit murder,
do not commit adultery,
do not steal, do not bear false witness,
honor your mother and your father,
love your neighbor as yourself...(to cover the rest).

Those sound like the 10 commandments to me.
Jesus brought them to the heart...this is a different topic.

God did not make up new commandments...they are the same commandments as ever....it is HOW WE KEEP THEM that has changed.

Matthew 5:17-19 is also important.
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[PeterJens]

Scripturally the 10 commandments can be defended because they were all spoken of in the N.T.

In just one parable.....The Rich Young Ruler,,,,Jesus names at least half of the 10 commandments.
Jesus said to keep the commandments in order to enter into life. What commandments could Jesus have meant? He was Jewish and was raised to follow the commandments,,,and He followed them perfectly, thus fulfilling them. Jesus told the §RYR:
do not commit murder,
do not commit adultery,
do not steal, do not bear false witness,
honor your mother and your father,
love your neighbor as yourself...(to cover the rest).

Those sound like the 10 commandments to me.
Jesus brought them to the heart...this is a different topic.

God did not make up new commandments...they are the same commandments as ever....it is HOW WE KEEP THEM that has changed.

Matthew 5:17-19 is also important.
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

On this subject, I have developing my thoughts about defining ourselves. One way of describing us is our emotional reactions to life and our intellectual beliefs. Jesus brings an emotional conclusion of love to our hearts that changes us into His likeness with new intellectual beliefs.
The law appears to be a measure of the work of God in our hearts, and how we are progressing can be seen by how worked through our emotional conclusions with everyone reflecting who Jesus is. This is the work of grace, bring consistence to all aspects of our lives.

The law has not changed but our ability to demonstrate it, because the power of sin, if only I had.... has been changed into I am content in Christ, and trust His blessing for my future. Jesus fulfilled the law by opening the door to changing our hearts so we can walk in love, from the heart. Jesus new commandments were based on this radical love that now can be planted in our hearts, because now we know the Father through the Son and His intent. God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

On this subject, I have developing my thoughts about defining ourselves. One way of describing us is our emotional reactions to life and our intellectual beliefs. Jesus brings an emotional conclusion of love to our hearts that changes us into His likeness with new intellectual beliefs.
The law appears to be a measure of the work of God in our hearts, and how we are progressing can be seen by how worked through our emotional conclusions with everyone reflecting who Jesus is. This is the work of grace, bring consistence to all aspects of our lives.

The law has not changed but our ability to demonstrate it, because the power of sin, if only I had.... has been changed into I am content in Christ, and trust His blessing for my future. Jesus fulfilled the law by opening the door to changing our hearts so we can walk in love, from the heart. Jesus new commandments were based on this radical love that now can be planted in our hearts, because now we know the Father through the Son and His intent. God bless you

I agree and I've said this a few times throughout this thread.

We are not under the Law....which is fear that we cannot keep it.
We are under grace....the knowledge that we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit,,,our helper.

I've asked a few times what the difference is between the Mosaic (Old) Covenant and the New Covenant. Especially in view of the fact that we are to obey the Moral Law of the 10 commandments.

The answer is that the change is that it was impossible to keep the law before.....
our own effort could not bring about obedience.

Now we are empowered by the Holy Spirit and the change made in us...the transformation in us, has brought the Law (10 commandments) from the mind to the heart, as is stated in Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Romans.

 

[PeterJens]

There are greater consequences under grace; under the Spirit of grace.


To whom much is given, much is expected.

So much is misunderstood about our relationship with the Lord.

He desires to walk with us and teach us directly, as a father teaches a son.


We are always trying to learn from other sources.


This is how Abraham learned.



JLB

I have heard too many talk about hearing from God directly.
Often such folk leave scripture behind and emphasise direct revelation, like out of body experiences, audible voices etc.

When you break down the content it is normally nothing, than emotional convictions they are ok, and just carry on, and the desire is for more experiences of the heavenlies.
I met one believer who was so addicted to the experience of the heavenlies, anything that came close to such an emotional elation must be of God even if it is heretical.

What some fail to see is something about LSD and euphoric drugs. They emphasise something we already have in our brains. Through repeated use, we can replicate such things, appear to be drunk, overwhelmed, certain about things that are irrational and simply delusional, but be sure we have discovered the best reality ever.

There is a reason why we have Gods word, and His experience with thousands of people over thousands of years, because it is not easy to know God and His ways, because we are so limited and so distracted we need to focus on the right issues in the right way as He lays out in the sermon on the mount. So profound are these short sentences, it is easy to think we have grasped it, and it slips through our fingers.

Today I listen to a sermon on Romans 6. It was just resist the devil and he will flee from you. Put simply they did not know what Paul was relating to that we are living under grace but slaves to righteousness. It is because this is emotional language of a spiritual reality and relationship, that means reading the law does not make us obedient, we are obedient because we have been changed, but we can just testify to this change rather than comprehend it fully. It is like when I saw my son as a youngster I would pick up his signals of happiness and distress and respond appropriately. He was like a book I could read, and my love would respond as I read it. Being involved and integrated was not defined by language, it was reflected in the words of a reality that existed. God bless you

 

[WIP]

I agree except that Jesus do not replace the 10 commandments, but added to them.
If you mean that He replaced them with the Two Great Commandments,,,then I could agree.

I don't agree that Jesus replaced the 10 Commandments. He defined them in their purest and simplest form.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't agree that Jesus replaced the 10 Commandments. He defined them in their purest and simplest form.

If you've been reading along, you'll see that there's a big problem here between members understanding of
The Law of Moses
The Law of God or God's Law
The Moral Law

I agree with you that Jesus DID NOT abolish the 10 commandments and He plainly says so in
Matthew 5:17
17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

He not only defined them, but brought them to be a matter of the heart.
To hate a person is to murder him. The bar has been raised.

But we can say that Jesus' Two Great Commandments DO cover all the rest.
If we love God, we will obey the first 4.
If we love our neighbor, we will obey the next 6.

 

[JLB]

I have heard too many talk about hearing from God directly.
Often such folk leave scripture behind and emphasise direct revelation, like out of body experiences, audible voices etc.

When you break down the content it is normally nothing, than emotional convictions they are ok, and just carry on, and the desire is for more experiences of the heavenlies.
I met one believer who was so addicted to the experience of the heavenlies, anything that came close to such an emotional elation must be of God even if it is heretical.

What some fail to see is something about LSD and euphoric drugs. They emphasise something we already have in our brains. Through repeated use, we can replicate such things, appear to be drunk, overwhelmed, certain about things that are irrational and simply delusional, but be sure we have discovered the best reality ever.

There is a reason why we have Gods word, and His experience with thousands of people over thousands of years, because it is not easy to know God and His ways, because we are so limited and so distracted we need to focus on the right issues in the right way as He lays out in the sermon on the mount. So profound are these short sentences, it is easy to think we have grasped it, and it slips through our fingers.

Today I listen to a sermon on Romans 6. It was just resist the devil and he will flee from you. Put simply they did not know what Paul was relating to that we are living under grace but slaves to righteousness. It is because this is emotional language of a spiritual reality and relationship, that means reading the law does not make us obedient, we are obedient because we have been changed, but we can just testify to this change rather than comprehend it fully. It is like when I saw my son as a youngster I would pick up his signals of happiness and distress and respond appropriately. He was like a book I could read, and my love would respond as I read it. Being involved and integrated was not defined by language, it was reflected in the words of a reality that existed. God bless you

We have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within us, to lead us, and teach us, as well as empower us to walk in righteousnes, love and truth.


This is the promise of the New Covenant.


“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34


Jesus confirmed to Peter that he had a revelation directly from God the Father concerning who Jesus was.


He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17



But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


I also believe that people hear things within themselves that are not from God, as the enemy seeks to lead us astray in whatever way he can.


However following the Lord involves being led by the Spirit.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:12-16


Faith comes by hearing God, whether directly or indirectly through those He sends to preach the Gospel.


God gave Noah the instructions to build the Ark.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


By faith means God moved upon, spoke to, inspired someone to do something and they did what He said; they obeyed.


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-21


God moved upon this woman to press forward through the crowd and touch the hem of Jesus’ garment. This produced faith in her. When she acted in obedience she was blessed, and her faith was able to produce the intended divine result, which in her case was healing.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

We have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within us, to lead us, and teach us, as well as empower us to walk in righteousnes, love and truth.


This is the promise of the New Covenant.


“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” Jeremiah 31:31-34


Jesus confirmed to Peter that he had a revelation directly from God the Father concerning who Jesus was.


He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:15-17



But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27


I also believe that people hear things within themselves that are not from God, as the enemy seeks to lead us astray in whatever way he can.


However following the Lord involves being led by the Spirit.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:12-16


Faith comes by hearing God, whether directly or indirectly through those He sends to preach the Gospel.


God gave Noah the instructions to build the Ark.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


By faith means God moved upon, spoke to, inspired someone to do something and they did what He said; they obeyed.


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-21


God moved upon this woman to press forward through the crowd and touch the hem of Jesus’ garment. This produced faith in her. When she acted in obedience she was blessed, and her faith was able to produce the intended divine result, which in her case was healing.




JLB

Didn't the woman have faith BEFORE she pressed through the crowd?
Isn't faith what makes us go to God?
Isn't it grace that we receive when we push forward??

 

[JLB]

Didn't the woman have faith BEFORE she pressed through the crowd?
Isn't faith what makes us go to God?
Isn't it grace that we receive when we push forward??

We receive faith from God when He speaks to us.

He imparts faith as well as grace, to accomplish the thing He spoke to us to do, which produced faith in us.

Grace is the Spirit; the Spirit of grace.


We who have the Spirit can also impart grace to those who hear us.


Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:29-30



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

We receive faith from God when He speaks to us.

He imparts faith as well as grace, to accomplish the thing He spoke to us to do, which produced faith in us.

Grace is the Spirit; the Spirit of grace.


We who have the Spirit can also impart grace to those who hear us.


Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:29-30



JLB

We receive the faith necessary to do what we must do.
I believe this would be in regards to receiving a measure of faith......?

Romans 12:3-8
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
4For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
6Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
7if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
8or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Tomorrow...

 

[JLB]

Didn't the woman have faith BEFORE she pressed through the crowd?

Yes, there was faith in her heart first.

With that faith I believe she also received grace; the divine ability given to us unmerited by God that enables us to do what we could not do, without it.


The substance of the thing this woman hoped for was being healed of an issue of blood, which she had spent all her money on to doctors, but had only gotten worse. She had no hope.


God saw her condition and moved upon her and told her how she could be healed; press forward through the crowds and touch the hem of His garment.

The culture of her day, forbade her to touch a Rabbi.


Remember faith is also rendered as confidence.


For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:14




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

OzSpen

wondering,

Are you prepared to endorse all of the OT Moral Law in secular Italy? I'm thinking of:

Do you consider in 21st century Europe and the Western world these Moral Laws from the OT should be applied?

Capital punishment for several offences:

1. Murder, but not for accidental killings (Ex. 21:12-14; Lev. 24:17; Num. 35:16-28)
2. Striking a mother or father (Ex. 21:15; Lev. 20:9)
3. Kidnapping (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7)
4. Adultery (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-24)
5. Incest (Lev. 20:11-12, 14)
6. Bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16)
7. Homosexuality (Lev. 20:13)
8. Promiscuity (Deut. 22:20-21)
9. Sex with another man's wife (Deut. 22:25-27)
10. Witchcraft (Ex. 22:18)
11. Offering human sacrifices to a god (Lev. 20:2)
12. A stubborn and rebellious child (Deut. 21:18-21)
13. Blasphemy/cursing God (Lev. 24:11-16)
14. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex. 35:2; Num. 15:32-26)
15. Worshipping or enticing to worship false gods (Ex. 22:20; Deut. 13:1-11)
16. Refusing to obey a court decision (Deut. 17:12).

Oz

Maybe JLB is right.

Oz,,,WHAT is the Moral Law?
Is it not the 10 commandments?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, there was faith in her heart first.

With that faith I believe she also received grace; the divine ability given to us unmerited by God that enables us to do what we could not do, without it.


The substance of the thing this woman hoped for was being healed of an issue of blood, which she had spent all her money on to doctors, but had only gotten worse. She had no hope.


God saw her condition and moved upon her and told her how she could be healed; press forward through the crowds and touch the hem of His garment.

The culture of her day, forbade her to touch a Rabbi.


Remember faith is also rendered as confidence.


For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:14




JLB

Two comments:

1. Sometimes God tells us to do something, but we don't listen.
We should listen, and we should do the obeying right away.
If not, we may lose an opportunity.

2. She listened to her faith instead of her Rabbi.
Great point. When in doubt...listen to God.