WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Truthfrees]

What, precisely, is Paul referring to in the material in bold?

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances,

read the whole thing - he's talking about the man made division between the 2 groups of people

 

[Drew]

So are you saying the Torah is not the Word of God?

Of course, I am not saying this. There is nothing in my post that would lead to that conclusion.

 

[Truthfrees]

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Coincidence?

you are pasting 2 disconnected scriptures together that are about separate topics

 

[Truthfrees]

Obviously I agree. But equally obviously, this does not mean the 10 commandments, as documented in the Law of Moses remain in force. This is a technicality that either I have not been able to effectively communicate, or that you will not accept.

Again: If there is a law X that says "do not kill". And then someone declares that law has been set aside, but then re-affirms "do not kill", this does not mean that law X remains in force! It means that law X is still off the books, but that some of its dictates remain in effect, but subsumed under another "system of law or principles". I know this sounds like an irrelevant technicality. But, I think this distinction is important for other theological reasons.

if paul is hard to understand go back to Matthew 5:19 - 2 Peter 3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

What, precisely, is Paul referring to in the material in bold?

For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the [l]barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances,

You didn't give a book, chapter, and verse.
So I don't know.

 

[Drew]

man made laws said what you eat defiles you

No. The kosher food laws (part of the Law of Moses) declare a wide ranges of foods as unclean/defiling for the Jews. This is well known and we should not need to debate this particular point.

 

[Truthfrees]

No. The kosher food laws (part of the Law of Moses) declare a wide ranges of foods as unclean/defiling for the Jews. This is well known and we should not need to debate this particular point.

God said what to eat and not eat - check it out - there's a lot of Torah chapters about it

clean and unclean animals are those who eat plants vs scavengers and carnivores

God said to eat herbivores not carnivores and scavengers

modern science says for good health eat herbivores not carnivores and scavengers

 

[GodsGrace]

You accuse others of avoiding the plain meaning of the word "abolish". That argument can be turned around: When I fulfill my requirements to be granted a medical degree, do I show up at medical school the next day? Or is medical school over? A simple yes or no will suffice.

You are avoiding dealing with the case I have made. Jesus certainly could have been saying "I have not come to get rid of the law, to toss it aside, that is to "abolish" it, I have come to affirm that it is a good thing, but a thing whose purpose I will be fulfilling that come to an end". I will end this post by comparing two texts that strongly suggest the Law comes to an end at the Cross:

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Coincidence?

ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED
and
IT IS FINISHED
is speaking about two different events.

UNTIL ALL IS ACCOMPLISHED:
Matthew 5:18
18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

The above states that UNTIL heaven and earth pass away.
When is this but at the end of the world.
This phrase is repeated in Matthew 24.35
and Luke 16:17...both times meant as the end of the world.

What is accomplished must come at the end since the word UNTIL is used.
Heaven and earth can pass away, but the word of God lasts forever.
At the end of the world,,,,the word of God will have been accomplished...
ALL will have been accomplished, God's entire plan.

This is simple English....
UNTIL sets a time.
Until earth and heaven pass away.
Have they passed away?
Then has everything been accomplished?


IT IS FINISHED
John 19:30

What is finished on the cross?
Jesus' redemptive work.
What He came here to get done.
What His Father sent Him for.
To free us from the power of sin.
THIS happens on the cross.
But everything is not accomplished yet because heaven
and earth are still with us.

 

[Drew]

if paul is hard to understand go back to Jesus - Matthew 5:19 - 2 Peter 3:16

See posts 130 and 275. In those posts, I explain why the "until heaven and earth pass away" language in Matthew 5 was not necessarily intended to be taken literally. So when Jesus warns against annuling the law in verse 19, He could certainly be saying that until the Law passes away - and per post 275 I argue this is at the cross - obviously people should obey the Law.

And I could equally apply 2 Peter 3:16 to you. You are effectively engaging in ad hominem.

 

[GodsGrace]

Under the law of Moses, sins were “atoned for” which means covered.


In the New Covenant our sins are removed, or “taken away


For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4


He has posted this scripture several times.


JLB

In post 260, @Earnest T. Bass said this:
Hebrews 10:4 clearly says those OT sacrifices could not take away sin and there was a remembrance of their sins. That is why they continued to have to offer those sacrifices year by year.

I ask you too....
If Hebrews 10:4 is correct....
it means sins were not forgiven in the O.T.
Then why were sacrifices made?

 

[GodsGrace]

Did Jesus not tell some fellow Jews that nothing that enters a man's mouth defiles him? The Law of Moses is clear: some things do indeed defile.

Did Jesus not declare that He has the power to forgive sin? The Law of Moses prescribes that the Temple is the place to go for forgiveness.

Did Jesus not have contact with lepers and others whom the Law declared to be unclean?

Did Jesus not prevent the stoning of the woman caught in adultery? The Law of Moses prescribed stoning.

Did Jesus not challenge the Sabbath law?

Jesus challenged the Sabbath Law?
When?

 

[JLB]

In post 260, @Earnest T. Bass said this:
Hebrews 10:4 clearly says those OT sacrifices could not take away sin and there was a remembrance of their sins. That is why they continued to have to offer those sacrifices year by year.

That would s exactly what the scriptures teach.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

That would s exactly what the scriptures teach.



JLB

Sacrifices did not take sin away.
Fine.
But no one has explained to me why sacrifices were even made then.
Neither you nor Ernest T. Bass ....

 

[jerry63935]

And I believe that when we accept Jesus as Lord, not just one fleeting moment but continuously in our lives, then His righteousness covers our unrighteousness. Does that make sense?

absolutely it makes sense he is our righteousness we have none ours is like filthy rags ie: a discarded sanitary napkin

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course, I am not saying this. There is nothing in my post that would lead to that conclusion.

You stated that Jesus did not obey the Torah by giving examples.
Jesus is God.
God inspired the Torah.
Why would Jesus not obey the Torah?

 

[jerry63935]

Sacrifices did not take sin away.
Fine.
But no one has explained to me why sacrifices were even made then.
Neither you nor Ernest T. Bass ....

the sacrifices in the o.t was external Christ sacrifice is internal the heart becoming eternal . i dont pretend to understand it all either.. but it all points towards Christ example Abraham Ram in the thicket :amen

 

[jerry63935]

So you're saying that Jesus abolished the Moral Law?

This means we are no longer bound by it and not required to obey it.

this is like beating a dead horse the law has its place does not save us

 

[GodsGrace]

this is like beating a dead horse the law has its place does not save us

Well, actually, I feel like this...

 

[GodsGrace]

this is like beating a dead horse the law has its place does not save us

I agree with you...
but let me ask you this:
What do you mean by the law?

 

[JLB]

Jesus challenged the Sabbath Law?
When?

Sacrifices did not take sin away.
Fine.
But no one has explained to me why sacrifices were even made then.
Neither you nor Ernest T. Bass ....

The innocent animals were given as a sacrifice for sin, to fulfill the law of sin and death.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:12


The soul that sins (disobeys God) must die.

“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel 18:4

The evidence of death is the blood.

The blood is the life of flesh.


Therefore the payment for sin is born by the innocent, through the shedding of blood and death.

This is the law of sin and death.

Whoever sins must die.

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17


JLB