WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Blood Bought 1953]

Trust him for what?

Trust Him to Save us .....”Trust” is just another word for “ Faith”
Two things Save us—- Christ’s Blood and Our Faith.
God makes a Promise....one Believes it .....one Trusts God to keep His Promise....That is what Faith Or Trust is and without that Faith, “ it is impossible to please God”
“ The Righteous by Faith shall live”..... “the man who finds Life will find it by Trusting God”...... “ By Grace you are Saved, through Faith ( Trust ).......

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

To obey Jesus Christ; ie to “walk”, that is to say, live our life according to the Spirit, rather than being a slave to the sin that dwells in our flesh.


We have a new divine nature that is compatible with the Holy Spirit to dwell in, so as to lead us and guide us into all truth, and empowering us to practice righteousness rather than practicing the works of the flesh.


To sum it up, we are now given the power to rule in dominion over the lustful desires of our flesh so that we can love our neighbor as ourselves, which is how we love God.


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21


The righteous requirement of the law is obedience; to obey God in loving our neighbor as ourself.


This is the thing we are required to do.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



JLB

If a person does not have God’s Holy Spirit within them, they are “ None Of His”. It is what separates the Saved from the damned.It is the Spirit That God that gives to a person that creates in you a New Heart....The Spirit That gives you “ ears to hear and eyes to see”....it is the Spirit That reveals to a person that they are Lost Sinners who MUST have a Savior or they are Utterly Lost....it is the Spirit That changes you from within and makes you more like Jesus — That “ Inside Of the cup” transformation that God is looking for....
Those that possess this God-Given Gift are Members of the Body Of Christ and they are the ONLY ones who make up that Body....if you are not a Member Of The Body Of Christ when you die— you are Lost forever .
How does one get that Saving Spirit ? How does one become “ Born Again” ? Simply Believe the Gospel contained in 1Cor15:1-4.....Believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead......simple as that. God Bless...

To obey Jesus Christ; ie to “walk”, that is to say, live our life according to the Spirit, rather than being a slave to the sin that dwells in our flesh.


We have a new divine nature that is compatible with the Holy Spirit to dwell in, so as to lead us and guide us into all truth, and empowering us to practice righteousness rather than practicing the works of the flesh.


To sum it up, we are now given the power to rule in dominion over the lustful desires of our flesh so that we can love our neighbor as ourselves, which is how we love God.


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21


The righteous requirement of the law is obedience; to obey God in loving our neighbor as ourself.


This is the thing we are required to do.



The only thing we are “ REQUIRED” to do in this Present Age Of Grace is to BELIEVE the Gospel Of 1Cor15:1-4......That means we Believe Jesus died for our Sins and rose from the Grave.....
Nobody loves God like they should.....Nobody loves their neighbor as much as they love themselves.....That is why we must have Grace- a Grace That God freely gives to Those that will put their Faith in the Finished Work Of His Son To Save them....



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

almost being the correct word.

I said Jesus repeated almost all the commandments to the Rich Young Ruler.
You replied as above.

Are you then saying that Jesus did not agree with all 10 commandments?

 

[GodsGrace]

The purpose of the Law was to show us that we could not keep it.....we MUST have a Savior! Born Again Christians have something much better than the “ weak and useless” Law ( Paul’s Words, not mine ).....we have the Indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us now— if we will let it. It takes Trust—- THAT is what God is looking for......God Bless........

There were a few purposes to the Law.
One was to teach the newly released slaves how to live in a civilized community.
Another was to show them what sin is.
And to show them how sinful they were. One does not know he is a sinner, unless he has
broken a known sin.
Another reason is, as you've said, to show man that he could not keep the law.

The reason he could not keep the law is because he did not have the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was with man even in the O.T., but He did not dwell within man and thus
man had no power over satan since we had not been purchased back from him yet - this refers to the Ransom Theory of Atonement.

But I was replying to a comment jaybo made.
He stated we are not under any O.T. law.

And yet Jesus said we are to obey.
John 14:23 Jesus spoke about keeping His word.

So then what exactly are we to obey?
How do we know what the Holy Spirit wants us to obey?

 

[GodsGrace]

dble

 

[JLB]

If a person does not have God’s Holy Spirit within them, they are “ None Of His”. It is what separates the Saved from the damned.It is the Spirit That God that gives to a person that creates in you a New Heart....The Spirit That gives you “ ears to hear and eyes to see”....it is the Spirit That reveals to a person that they are Lost Sinners who MUST have a Savior or they are Utterly Lost....it is the Spirit That changes you from within and makes you more like Jesus — That “ Inside Of the cup” transformation that God is looking for....
Those that possess this God-Given Gift are Members of the Body Of Christ and they are the ONLY ones who make up that Body....if you are not a Member Of The Body Of Christ when you die— you are Lost forever .
How does one get that Saving Spirit ? How does one become “ Born Again” ? Simply Believe the Gospel contained in 1Cor15:1-4.....Believe that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead......simple as that. God Bless.

Amen. Good post.

I wonder if you understand what “believe” means.


If we believe Jesus is Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead, but we don’t obey Him, what good is our believing.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Does the Devil believe Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, mame, the law is divided up by type of laws. This is not where we disagree.


We can know which ones we still have to keep.
I'm not putting forth any argument that we can't.


By 'keep' I'm going to assume you mean 'have to keep literally'.
Yes, we do have to literally keep some civil laws.


Not literally.
Unless conscience dictates that a person keep them literally (but that's another topic).


Yes, we have to literally keep the moral law. But we do not have to keep a literal Sabbath. That finds it's fulfillment when we keep the command to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Just as a lawful fast finds it's fulfillment when we 'fast' from sin, so a lawful Sabbath finds it's fulfillment when we 'rest' from sin (see Isaiah 58:3-14). Sin being defined as 'not loving your neighbor as yourself'.


When you keep the moral law you fulfill ALL of the law.

"The entire law is summed up in a single (moral) command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." - Galatians 5:14

"...he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one (moral) rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." - Romans 13:8-9


Yes, I have.
Thank you.

You're not understanding.
ALL of the law is 'kept' by faith.

The right word to use is 'upheld' by faith. That's the word Paul uses. Keeping the law implies literally keeping the law to the letter. Faith is not required to do that. Some laws are literally kept through our faith in Christ, while some are not literally kept by our faith in Christ, but ALL of them are upheld (that is fulfilled and not violated) by our faith in Christ.

I THINK I know what you're saying......maybe.

What you're saying is that some of the civil laws ARE moral laws.
For instance, in Exodus 22 there's a whole chapter about the law pertaining to the stealing of an ox. This would be listed as a Civil Law; however, it could also be associated with the Moral Law because of the commandment Do Not Steal.

So, in effect, we would be keeping (obeying, upholding) that law.
But to my understanding, it would be because it's breaking a moral law if we did steal an ox from our neighbor.

And as to all of the law being kept by faith...you repeat this.
Of course all the law is kept by faith.
By our works we are not justified.....
Only by our faith are we justified...so any law we keep is by faith.
If we kept ALL of the laws, literally, it still would not save us.

 

[JLB]

I said Jesus repeated almost all the commandments to the Rich Young Ruler.
You replied as above.

Are you then saying that Jesus did not agree with all 10 commandments?

If you could just post the scripture where Jesus or His Apostles used the phrase 10 Commandments which of course contains the 4th Commandment then We can discuss it.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

If you could just post the scripture where Jesus or His Apostles used the phrase 10 Commandments which of course contains the 4th Commandment then We can discuss it.


JLB

You know there's no such verse.
It's called the 10 commandments even if you don't agree with the 4th.

 

[JLB]

You know there's no such verse.
It's called the 10 commandments even if you don't agree with the 4th.

Makes no difference what I agree or disagree with.

If you believe that Church should keep the Sabbath according to the law of Moses then you should do it.


The problem is, it’s not scriptural.


There are people in Messianic Judaism or Seventh Day Adventist’s that believe the Church is to keep some part of the law of Moses.

When I ask for scripture from the New Testament it’s always the same.


They quote from the law of Moses, or twist some scripture about Paul going to a synagogue on the Sabbath.

The New Testament refers to His Commandments or His Doctrine, the doctrine of Christ.


For the record I believe man should rest a day each week.


However, the weekly Sabbath points to the rest to come.

If a person isn’t born again, then they are not in Christ, who fulfilled the law, and is our peace and rest, Who also will cause to enter His rest.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Makes no difference what I agree or disagree with.

If you believe that Church should keep the Sabbath according to the law of Moses then you should do it.


The problem is, it’s not scriptural.


There are people in Messianic Judaism or Seventh Day Adventist’s that believe the Church is to keep some part of the law of Moses.

When I ask for scripture from the New Testament it’s always the same.


They quote from the law of Moses, or twist some scripture about Paul going to a synagogue on the Sabbath.

The New Testament refers to His Commandments or His Doctrine, the doctrine of Christ.


For the record I believe man should rest a day each week.


However, the weekly Sabbath points to the rest to come.

If a person isn’t born again, then they are not in Christ, who fulfilled the law, and is our peace and rest, Who also will cause to enter His rest.


JLB

OK, so you don't like calling it The Ten Commandments because you believe Jesus said NOT to worship on the Sabbath?
Or because the Apostles did not worship on the Sabbath?

If I called it the 9 commandments would you agree?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

There were a few purposes to the Law.
One was to teach the newly released slaves how to live in a civilized community.
Another was to show them what sin is.
And to show them how sinful they were. One does not know he is a sinner, unless he has
broken a known sin.
Another reason is, as you've said, to show man that he could not keep the law.

The reason he could not keep the law is because he did not have the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was with man even in the O.T., but He did not dwell within man and thus
man had no power over satan since we had not been purchased back from him yet - this refers to the Ransom Theory of Atonement.

But I was replying to a comment jaybo made.
He stated we are not under any O.T. law.

And yet Jesus said we are to obey.
John 14:23 Jesus spoke about keeping His word.

So then what exactly are we to obey?
How do we know what the Holy Spirit wants us to obey?

There are only three things that I am aware of that The Holy Spirit requires of us to obey...this side of the Cross....
Obey the Gospel Of Paul found in 1Cor15:1-4 , Given to Paul by Jesus Personally to reveal to the World . We obey the Gospel by RESTING in it as God commanded in Hebrews 4. If one does not put their complete Faith in the Finished Work Of The Cross and quit relying on their Performance Of trying and failing to be “ good enough” to be accepted by God, that person, according to God is guilty of “ disobedience and UNbelief”. Serious stuff. Trust in the Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing If you want to please God.
According to 1 John3:23, the Ascended Christ , on this side of the Cross, in the current Age Of Grace only leaves us with two Commandments , two things that please God—- Believe and Love. For those concerned with “ obedience”—- this is the way to obtain it. LOVE is the Engine that drives any “ obedience” that God is interested in.....NOT out of a sense of obligation....NOT out of any sense of Fear......God has known all along that if one simply “ Believes and Loves”——- everything else will take care of itself.....
Resting in the Gospel , Knowing you are forever Saved by what Jesus did for you at the Cross and getting that terrible weight of PERFORMANCE off of your shoulders is what gives one a true sense of joy and gratitude and peace of mind.....it does NOT inspire Licentiousness. Quite the contrary , it spurs a Love for God, and that Love Spurs Obedience.When we “ miss the mark”, which is to sin , we are covered by Grace. We have a God that has PROMISED to save us “ to the Uttermost! We have been wonderfully blessed! Rejoice in that! God bless....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I said Jesus repeated almost all the commandments to the Rich Young Ruler.
You replied as above.

Are you then saying that Jesus did not agree with all 10 commandments?

The rich , young Ruler inquired , “ What must “ I” do to inherit Eternal Life?” Jesus gave him the Truth. If “ we” want to Merit Salvation by our ability to Keep the Law , If we have deluded ourselves into thinking that we can keep it, we have put ourselves under the “ Curse Of The Law” That automatically accompanies it . If one is going to stand before God making the case that he is “ Justified” to get into Heaven because he had done an adequate job of keeping the Law to deserve it— he will be damned— along with anybody else that thinks they are “ good enough.” The Law must be kept perfectly 24/7 all of your life if that strategy is going to work.Jesus was trying to stick a pin in the Rich Ruler’s Self - Righteous balloon.He, just like the rest of us , can’t even keep the most important Commandment! Nobody except Jesus ever Loved God with “ALL of their hearts, minds and souls”.
Hopefully , in the years that followed , the Ruler found the “ Loop-Hole” given to those with the Wisdom to know that they can NEVER be Justified before a Holy God with their pitiful attempts to obey all of the 613 laws in the Old Testament....The loop-hole is seeing that you are a Lost, Hell-Bound Sinner That needs the Grace Of God to be Saved and the WAY to get that Grace is to do the Will Of God——“ BELIEVE in the One that He sent!” Accomplish that by Resting in the Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing—— 1Cor15:1-4.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

OK, so you don't like calling it The Ten Commandments because you believe Jesus said NOT to worship on the Sabbath?
Or because the Apostles did not worship on the Sabbath?

If I called it the 9 commandments would you agree?

If I called it the 9 commandments would you agree?


The Number is irrelevant . Just like the Law is “ irrelevant” to your Salvation,other than the fact that they were given so that “ Sin might increase” and point you to the Savior—- The Savior Being the One That HAS the Power to Save via His Gospel.Paul said the Law was “ useless “ as it had NO POWER to Save—- go to where the “ Power” is at.......Believe and REST in the Gospel .....just like God COMMANDED us to do in Heb.4........God bless

 

[ezrider]

I'm not dead to my sins because I still sin.
I MIGHT be dead to the law but it depends which verse you're referring to.

MIGHT???

Do you not know? Is your faith determined by a verse? If you are not dead to your sins, then you have not crucified yourself with Christ. Instead you crucify him to yourself over and over again.

Have you lost your way weeding through the laws? What does Christ have to do with the Law of Moses? By one man Sin entered the world, and Death by Sin; And that man was not Moses. The First man Adam...... The Last Man Adam......

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Amen. Good post.

I wonder if you understand what “believe” means.


If we believe Jesus is Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead, but we don’t obey Him, what good is our believing.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Does the Devil believe Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead?


JLB

Yes , I know what “ Believe “ means.
What Good is our Believing if we are not obedient? It’s plenty good! It saves a person! One becomes Saved by what they Believe—- Not by how they behave. A wise Believer will obey God to be blessed .An unwise Believer, a Foolish Believer might think that they can “ sin and get away with it, because we are under Grace and “ where Sin abounds , Grace abounds that much more”.Just because there are a lot of foolish, disobedient Believers out there, that does Nothing to Negate what that verse says.
God knows how to correct Stupid Children......just like a Loving Parent, He will Chastise His errant Sons and Daughters not because He likes to be mean....He chastises Those He loves for their own good......if you are a wrong - doer who seemingly gets away with everything he does —- THAT’S the time to be concerned.....if God is NOT Training or Chastising you for SINNING, you are a “ Bastard” —- NOT one of His.....gulp ! .....that is NOT what you want!
All Believers in the Gospel will make it to Heaven.That is a Promise Of God.Do you think it never dawned on God that some Jack-Asses would try to take advantage of His Grace when He bestowed it on all that would Trust Him for Salvation? Certainly not.Some Believers will be 100% Saved on Judgement Day, But they will be too sore to sit down because they made it to Heaven with many, many stripes on their behinds. Wise Believers that were obedient and did not need God’s sometimes very painful correction will not have that problem.The choice is ours....
Of course the Devil knows all about and truly believes in the Crucifixion and Resurrection Of Jesus Christ.He has no doubt about Jesus being the Son Of God either.....He has a couple of serious problems though......God’s Grace is the only thing that saves a person.One “ cashes in” on that Grace by Faith. Satan can never muster up Faith because he has witnessed everything.If an Aborigine looks at a jet airplane he probably lacks the faith to believe that it will fly . If he later SEES it fly ,it no longer takes any faith for him to believe it— he has been excluded from that category........just like Satan has been disqualified from conjuring up any Faith that would ever save him.Another problem has is this— NOBODY comes to God lest the Spirit draw him......Satan is never going to be “ drawn by the Holy Spirit......

 

[GodsGrace]

Makes no difference what I agree or disagree with.

If you believe that Church should keep the Sabbath according to the law of Moses then you should do it.


The problem is, it’s not scriptural.


There are people in Messianic Judaism or Seventh Day Adventist’s that believe the Church is to keep some part of the law of Moses.

When I ask for scripture from the New Testament it’s always the same.


They quote from the law of Moses, or twist some scripture about Paul going to a synagogue on the Sabbath.

The New Testament refers to His Commandments or His Doctrine, the doctrine of Christ.


For the record I believe man should rest a day each week.


However, the weekly Sabbath points to the rest to come.

If a person isn’t born again, then they are not in Christ, who fulfilled the law, and is our peace and rest, Who also will cause to enter His rest.


JLB

I forgot to say what I've tried to bring to your attention before.
If you say
HIS COMMANDMENTS
or
HIS DOCTRINE
not too many will know what you're talking about.
But everybody knows about the 10 commandments.

Don't you think that asking that we use particular language is
too demanding and takes away from the conversation?
It makes us focus more on TERMS than on the TOPIC....

 

[GodsGrace]

There are only three things that I am aware of that The Holy Spirit requires of us to obey...this side of the Cross....
Obey the Gospel Of Paul found in 1Cor15:1-4 , Given to Paul by Jesus Personally to reveal to the World . We obey the Gospel by RESTING in it as God commanded in Hebrews 4. If one does not put their complete Faith in the Finished Work Of The Cross and quit relying on their Performance Of trying and failing to be “ good enough” to be accepted by God, that person, according to God is guilty of “ disobedience and UNbelief”. Serious stuff. Trust in the Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing If you want to please God.
According to 1 John3:23, the Ascended Christ , on this side of the Cross, in the current Age Of Grace only leaves us with two Commandments , two things that please God—- Believe and Love. For those concerned with “ obedience”—- this is the way to obtain it. LOVE is the Engine that drives any “ obedience” that God is interested in.....NOT out of a sense of obligation....NOT out of any sense of Fear......God has known all along that if one simply “ Believes and Loves”——- everything else will take care of itself.....
Resting in the Gospel , Knowing you are forever Saved by what Jesus did for you at the Cross and getting that terrible weight of PERFORMANCE off of your shoulders is what gives one a true sense of joy and gratitude and peace of mind.....it does NOT inspire Licentiousness. Quite the contrary , it spurs a Love for God, and that Love Spurs Obedience.When we “ miss the mark”, which is to sin , we are covered by Grace. We have a God that has PROMISED to save us “ to the Uttermost! We have been wonderfully blessed! Rejoice in that! God bless....

All of the above is very well stated and I'm sure all Christians agree to this.
I just want to say that if we follow the above formula, it does lead to performance.

Performing as a Christian should not be seen as a negative necessity.
No one is saved by their performance, but they are saved by faith.
Belief has obedience included in the meaning....and I do say we are to obey God.
But, as you've said, not out of fear but out of love.
It's this love that makes God's commandments easy and not burdensome.

 

[GodsGrace]

The rich , young Ruler inquired , “ What must “ I” do to inherit Eternal Life?” Jesus gave him the Truth. If “ we” want to Merit Salvation by our ability to Keep the Law , If we have deluded ourselves into thinking that we can keep it, we have put ourselves under the “ Curse Of The Law” That automatically accompanies it . If one is going to stand before God making the case that he is “ Justified” to get into Heaven because he had done an adequate job of keeping the Law to deserve it— he will be damned— along with anybody else that thinks they are “ good enough.” The Law must be kept perfectly 24/7 all of your life if that strategy is going to work.Jesus was trying to stick a pin in the Rich Ruler’s Self - Righteous balloon.He, just like the rest of us , can’t even keep the most important Commandment! Nobody except Jesus ever Loved God with “ALL of their hearts, minds and souls”.
Hopefully , in the years that followed , the Ruler found the “ Loop-Hole” given to those with the Wisdom to know that they can NEVER be Justified before a Holy God with their pitiful attempts to obey all of the 613 laws in the Old Testament....The loop-hole is seeing that you are a Lost, Hell-Bound Sinner That needs the Grace Of God to be Saved and the WAY to get that Grace is to do the Will Of God——“ BELIEVE in the One that He sent!” Accomplish that by Resting in the Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing—— 1Cor15:1-4.

What does the life of someone resting in the gospel of grace look like?

Jesus told the RYR what he must do to attain life.
But Jesus also knew that we all have some limit to what we are willing to do.
Just like He said that we must "hate" our parents, brothers, if we are to follow Him.
He didn't really mean to hate them...but that God must come first.
Was the RYR willing to go all the way? No. He was not really willing to follow Christ.
And yes, you're right, JUST following the commandments will not save UNLESS we have faith first.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I called it the 9 commandments would you agree?


The Number is irrelevant . Just like the Law is “ irrelevant” to your Salvation,other than the fact that they were given so that “ Sin might increase” and point you to the Savior—- The Savior Being the One That HAS the Power to Save via His Gospel.Paul said the Law was “ useless “ as it had NO POWER to Save—- go to where the “ Power” is at.......Believe and REST in the Gospel .....just like God COMMANDED us to do in Heb.4........God bless

What do you mean by THE LAW?