WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[ezrider]

Do you still look to Jesus to cover your sins?

Why do you ask?
Is there someone else?

If you were truly DEAD to your Sins by the Law, then why do you still require a covering?



The morning dew does not settle upon the tender herb that lies beneath a covering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you were truly DEAD to your Sins by the Law, then why do you still require a covering?

Ask Jesus. He's the one still interceding on our behalf in heaven.

"25...he is able to save completely c those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:25

Our salvation doesn't make it so we don't require a covering. It's because we have a continuing covering that we are completely and forever saved.

 

[JLB]

What do you know of the three wells of Abraham that Jacob re- dug? The name of the last well speaks of Jesus and he uses this language twice in scripture. For those with ears to hear, knew exactly what he was saying. For those without ears, they were oblivious to His words or they rejected his words which was foretold in the babalonian talmud and hardened their hearts.

For the Jews, it's a matter of hardening of their heart, which Paul writes about in Romans. This two has the nuances of the three wells.

Jeff you know as well as I do that the Talmud does not speak well of Jesus nor of His followers.


I will leave it at that.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I think I hear you.
You wanted to understand why I'm tired of a lovey dovey God.
I explained it and even said i didn't mean any of it to be you.
And I don't like hearing about God's wrath although I know about it.
But some hide behind His love and I don't care for that either.
Have you been on other forums? I've heard some pretty weird stuff.
God's love seems to cover every intentional sin and way of life...
which is different than what you've correctly stated above about us getting
through this with the help of the Holy Spirit and our Sonship with God and our
salvation by our Savior.

Good morning Fran. I don’t get on my own forum enough anymore, so the answer is no, I don’t go on other forums. However, I do understand what your saying and I’ve seen it myself. In first John, we are commanded to walk as Jesus walked and that includes keeping His commandments in Matthew 5-7 because that’s how Jesus walked. We’re not always going to get it right, but we don’t use Gods grace as an excuse not to try. When we use Gods grace as an excuse to not change as scripture directs us, then we simply bring wrath upon ourselves. So yes, I get where your coming from. I was just a bit confused because I didn’t know you were talking to me about other folk... sorry, I’m slow like that lol.

 

[stovebolts]

Jeff you know as well as I do that the Talmud does not speak well of Jesus nor of His followers.


I will leave it at that.



JLB

Personally, I only know of two places in the Talmud where Jesus is explicitly mentioned. Both refer to his crucifiction and you are correct, they do not speak kindly. These are fantastic tractates to prove the historical Jesus existed in first century Palestine to those who insist Jesus was never a real person in time.

as far as the Talmud, it predicts and talks about the Messiah and the passages I’ve read point directly to Jesus. You’ve heard the saying, you can bring a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink... Paul puts it this way.

Romans 11:11-16 net bible
11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall,[h] did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel[i] jealous. 12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration[j] bring?

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Seeing that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I could provoke my people to jealousy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first portion[k] of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.[l]

 

[JLB]

Personally, I only know of two places in the Talmud where Jesus is explicitly mentioned. Both refer to his crucifiction and you are correct, they do not speak kindly. These are fantastic tractates to prove the historical Jesus existed in first century Palestine to those who insist Jesus was never a real person in time.

as far as the Talmud, it predicts and talks about the Messiah and the passages I’ve read point directly to Jesus. You’ve heard the saying, you can bring a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink... Paul puts it this way.

Romans 11:11-16 net bible
11 I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall,[h] did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel[i] jealous. 12 Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration[j] bring?

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Seeing that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I could provoke my people to jealousy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first portion[k] of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.[l]

Salvation is from the Jews.

The scriptures came to us through the Jews.

We are grafted into the natural olive tree, being wild olive branches.

The root that supports us is the Covenant the Lord made with Abraham.


My only point is was making is the Talmud was mainly written by those who reject Jesus as Messiah.


Many Jews are coming to Christ in these last days.


There are many wonderful things we as Gentiles can learn from our Jewish brethren who are born again and filled with His Spirit, like Paul.


Becoming physically circumcised and keeping the law of Moses is not one of them.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No, he corrected a previous Rabbinical judgment made about divorce.

What do you mean by your first sentence?

There was the law itself, and then there were the decisions of the rabbis added to the law. That's what Moses command concerning divorce was; his own rabbinical judgment about the matter:

"7“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." - Matthew 19:7-8

But, as a rabbi, he had the right to do that, and it carried equal weight with the rest of the law:

"1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must be careful to do everything they tell you." - Matthew 23:1-3

Jesus, being the head Rabbi, reversed Moses' rabbinical judgment about marriage and brought the parameters in which one is allowed to divorce back to the way it was in the beginning:

"31“It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ f 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." - Matthew 5:31-32

 

[stovebolts]

Ok.

I think we all agree that Jesus correctly interpreted the law.


The only point I was making is, Jesus said nothing would pass from the law, until it was fulfilled.


So my question is: Did Jesus fulfill the law?


If He did, and I think we all agree that He did, then it is certainly safe to say, the requirement for the law to be set aside, or taken out of the way, because it has become obsolete has been met, having been fulfilled.



Paul says it this way —


What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19


It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come...


The Seed has certainly come and fulfilled the law.


By saying “until”, the Spirit is indicating the law was temporary.



JLB

Good morning JLB. This may be my last Long post for the day. :-(. I’ve got too much on my plate today. I have front spindles to replace on my Camaro, a load of metal to the scrap yard, men’s breakfast in 40 minutes, run sound board for church at 5 and the infamous honey do list that grows faster than I can tick items off the list.

in spirit, we are one. However, in the details I’m still working some things out in regard to your last post. Perhaps you and others can help.

keeping in mind your last post, how do you pull in Jerimiah 31:31? For me, it’s easy to reconcile Christians as Israel, but what of the law written on our hearts? After Jesus instituted the New Covenant, he gave us a new commandment To love one another,

 

[stovebolts]

My only point is was making is the Talmud was mainly written by those who reject Jesus as Messiah.

That’s not true. The Talmud was written well before Jesus was born. Many looked forward to the coming Messiah, but died before he arrived. Paul was well acquainted tith the Talmud as were many of the Apostles.

what you might be trying to say is that many, but not all Jews today who read of the Messiah in the Talmud, reject him.

 

[stovebolts]

Salvation is from the Jews.

The scriptures came to us through the Jews.

We are grafted into the natural olive tree, being wild olive branches.

The root that supports us is the Covenant the Lord made with Abraham.


My only point is was making is the Talmud was mainly written by those who reject Jesus as Messiah.


Many Jews are coming to Christ in these last days.


There are many wonderful things we as Gentiles can learn from our Jewish brethren who are born again and filled with His Spirit, like Paul.


Becoming physically circumcised and keeping the law of Moses is not one of them.


JLB

Ver all, this is a good post. Thank you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said if we hate our enemy, we have already killed him. In the O.T. the enemy was hated.

You don't think these are changes?

This, also, is a correction of understanding, not an outright change to the law:

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven." - Matthew 5:43-45

Perhaps the saying comes from 1 Chronicles 19:2...

“Should you help the wicked and love (a) those who hate the Lord?" - 2 Chronicles 19:2

The answer to the rhetorical question being, 'no', of course. So you can see how it can be misunderstood to mean you should not love the enemies of God and his people. He did not change the law about how we relate to the wicked. Jesus set them straight on the matter and corrected their misunderstanding.

 

[JLB]

The Talmud was written well before Jesus was born.

The Talmud refers unkindly to Jesus Christ of Nazareth and His followers.

On this we already agree.

For me, it’s easy to reconcile Christians as Israel,

The true Israel is the Church which began with Abraham.

Many don’t understand this.

Abraham walked in Covenant relationship with the same Lord we do.


We who are Christ’s, are Jews inwardly.



JLB

 

[JLB]

what you might be trying to say is that many, but not all Jews today who read of the Messiah in the Talmud, reject him.

My desire is for Jews to read the scriptures.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Good morning JLB. This may be my last Long post for the day. :-(. I’ve got too much on my plate today. I have front spindles to replace on my Camaro, a load of metal to the scrap yard, men’s breakfast in 40 minutes, run sound board for church at 5 and the infamous honey do list that grows faster than I can tick items off the list.

You are my hero.

You are an awesome brother, thank you so much for this site!


God bless you.




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can create divisions in the law insofar as recognizing that laws govern different areas of life. And divisions can be recognized in regard to what is to be literally fulfilled by us and what is already fulfilled by the Lord.

But we can not divide it up in regard to what is law and what is not (outside of the lawful Rabbinical judgements provided for us by the Bible itself, i.e. multiple wives, divorce). The law stands as an undivided entity that is upheld in this New Covenant by our faith.

I agree with your first paragraph and that's what the divisions are for.

Then when I read the second paragraph I get confused and it sounds like you're saying something different.

We agree that we can recognize the obvious divisions in types of law. But we can not divide up the law in regard to which laws are upheld by faith and which ones are not.

"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. " - Romans 3:31

ALL of the law is upheld by faith in Christ (all laws minus the rabbinical add-on's, of course). It's just that some laws are upheld through our literal keeping of that law and some are upheld through the work of Christ on the cross. But for all the various categories of law that there are, ALL of them find fulfillment through our faith in Christ, whether literally fulfilled by us, or fulfilled by the work of Christ on the cross.

 

[Edward]

We agree that we can recognize the obvious divisions in types of law. But we can not divide up the law in regard to which laws are upheld by faith and which ones are not.

"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. " - Romans 3:31

ALL of the law is upheld by faith in Christ (all laws minus the rabbinical add-on's, of course). It's just that some laws are upheld through our literal keeping of that law and some are upheld through the work of Christ on the cross. But for all the various categories of law that there are, ALL of them find fulfillment through our faith in Christ, whether literally fulfilled by us, or fulfilled by the work of Christ on the cross.

I agree and even though we literally uphold the law, we do not look to the law so as to keep it but rather we look to our Lord and say what shall we do today Lord? And it's guaranteed that it will not be contrary to the law, whether it is feeding a poor man or escaping from a prison with an Angel.

 

[ezrider]

Ask Jesus. He's the one still interceding on our behalf in heaven.

"25...he is able to save completely c those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them." - Hebrews 7:25

Our salvation doesn't make it so we don't require a covering. It's because we have a continuing covering that we are completely and forever saved.

What is it you are covering and why? What do you cover yourself with?



The morning dew can not fall upon the tender herb that sit beneath a covering.

 

[ezrider]

Salvation is from the Jews.

The scriptures came to us through the Jews.

Jeremiah 24:9
And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.


Deuteronomy 30:1
And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;


I have set before thee this day the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And who told you that you were naked?

 

[GodsGrace]

If you were truly DEAD to your Sins by the Law, then why do you still require a covering?



The morning dew does not settle upon the tender herb that lies beneath a covering

I'm sorry EZ. I've lost track of our conversation.

Could you post the verse you're referring to please?
I'm not dead to my sins because I still sin.
I MIGHT be dead to the law but it depends which verse you're referring to.
Many verses about the Law and they don't all mean the same.

As to covering:
Are we covered by Jesus or are we washed white as snow by Him?
I believe there's a difference.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good morning JLB. This may be my last Long post for the day. :-(. I’ve got too much on my plate today. I have front spindles to replace on my Camaro, a load of metal to the scrap yard, men’s breakfast in 40 minutes, run sound board for church at 5 and the infamous honey do list that grows faster than I can tick items off the list.

in spirit, we are one. However, in the details I’m still working some things out in regard to your last post. Perhaps you and others can help.

keeping in mind your last post, how do you pull in Jerimiah 31:31? For me, it’s easy to reconcile Christians as Israel, but what of the law written on our hearts? After Jesus instituted the New Covenant, he gave us a new commandment To love one another,

How do I pull in Jeremiah 31-31?
The post is for JLB but I've said this before and will again.....

The Law of God has not been abolished.
The 10 commandments have not been abolished.

As Jeremiah said....they have been moved from our head to our heart.

The New Covenant does not abolish the 10 commandments,,,it just makes it possible for us to keep them better because we have the help of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus confirmed the 10, and even added more.
However, all of His commandments are covered by the Great Two Commandments.
Love God
Love Yourself as your neighbor.