WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[Jethro Bodine]

...what does the gospel say we need for salvation?

"...faith expressing itself through love." - Galatians 5:6

But the church is sure it is this...

"...faith expressing itself through love." - Galatians 5:6

The church thinks dead faith saves because it can't understand how faith has to have works attached to it for it to be saving faith and that not be a works gospel.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Nice to see some progress: from "faith plus nothing" to "the gospel plus nothing".

Next step: what does the gospel say we need for salvation?

You have no idea how much it Pleases me to know that you see “ Progress” in my Walk Of Faith—— NOT......lol
I can also say legitimately, “ Grace Plus Nothing” ...... “ Nothing But The Blood”..... “Christ’s Blood and Out Faith, Plus Nothing”......

The Gospel for Your Salvation ( 1cor15:1-4 ) or as commonly referred to several times in the NT... “Paul’s Gospel”.... is a Promise Of Jesus .... Jesus told Paul to reveal it to the Jews And the Gentiles...
If somebody simply hears the Gospel and Believes that Gospel, a Gospel That proclaims That “Jesus died for our Sins and Rose from the Grave”. Believing this and this ALONE , is fully Efficient to get the job of Salvation accomplished.
If one feels that the this Gospel might be “ essential” for Salvation , but just not wholly “Adequate” For Salvation, they could be tempted to make a VERY big mistake, and 90% of the Church World is probably Guilty of it. People don’t fully Trust this Promise as it is presented and as it stands—— this Gospel is a Gospel Of Pure Grace—People seems to be unable to take the plunge and Just Believe it. They insist on adding a little “ Works insurance” to the mix. God won’t have it—- you can NOT mix Law and Grace—- Law will always Cancel Grace, and it Grace that Saves. In fact, Jesus warns, through the Writings Of “ His Chosen Vessel” Paul That If Anybody trues to Add Works to His Grace Plan Of the Gospel, you will be “ Fallen From Grace” and “ Severed From the Cross” Sound like serious stuff ? You bet. You ever hear it in church? I know that I didn’t. Some teachers say to “fall from Grace” means Damnation- - others say it does not.Beats Me! Why take a chance? If you add “Good WorkS , Tithing, Church Attendance, Doing your best to keep the Commandments, repenting Of all of your known Sins before you did—- you name it. Anything that reeks Of Human Effort , which is all that “ religion” is, ain’t gonna fly.....
If making additions to Paul’s Gospel were not Bad enough——God says that if you take the next step that involves a person “ Teaching” it.......you are “Accursed”. That means you are going to Hell. Gulp.See how SERIOUS this stuff is? It gets worse....
God says that if you do not Completely Trust His Gospel to the Point That you REST in it and IT ALONE , you are being “ Disobedient” and you are an “ UNBELIEVER”.If you are Resting in the Gospel , that means that you are+no longer concerned about Losing Your Salvation—- Secure because you now realize that The True Gospel is ALL of God. It’s not what you “ DO” for Him. It’s what HE did for YOU!
He Shed His Blood for you......HE Did HIS PART......God is going to test every “ so- called” man and woman of Faith” throughout the World......No different from the Jews that were tested by God to see if they had the FAiTH to enter the Promised Land.God wants to know if you have the Faith to enter the REST that comes with Total Faith in His Promise Of the Gospel Plus NOTHING.
Do you have this Faith that God Commands or are you going to “ Die in the Desert Wilderness” with the other “ Gospel Perverters” , as Paul So “ sweetly” put it. Don’t find yourself on Judgement Day saying you added to the Gospel because you falsely believed the Blood and the Sacrifice just couldnt get the Job done alone. Like Cain , you self- righteously figured you were going to do things “ Your” way.... “ Look what “I” did God! Now give me what I earned !” God ain’t gonna be in Debt to anybody. All you will hear is this—- “ Depart From Me, I Never Knew You”......
Remember, you May not get this stuff in Church, but you got it now—-They sing the Song, But they sing it and don’t really Believe “ It” or the Heart Of The Gospel.....you are going to find out , and let’s hope that is not in a bad way, that All along, the Song had it Nailed—- It really was True—- Nothing But The Blood of Jesus. God bless

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I did read the whole chapter, but I still don't understand why you mentioned this in reply to my question: "What would you say about someone who believes but does not show those "natural responses" to his believing? Would you say such a person has faith?"

I am sure you have a reason, I just don't see it. Please explain.

What if the early Natural Responses Of being a “ New Creation” were deep-rooted personality troubles that “ Fruit Inspectors” did not see, yet were the internal things that God knew needed more immediate attention. Some of that “ inside of the Cup” stuff.Maybe when the Roots of problems get Transformed, outward , sinful things will take care of themselves.Maybe when the Town Drunk gets his Inner - Man changed by the Holy Spirit— He will Lose all desire for that bottle.....that is where I would put “ my” money.....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one feels that the this Gospel might be “ essential” for Salvation , but just not wholly “Adequate” For Salvation, they could be tempted to make a VERY big mistake, and 90% of the Church World is probably Guilty of it.

No, probably 90% of the church is guilty of having faith that does not produce obedience to God's commands. But they are sure that faith will save them. If they really had the faith that saves they'd be growing up into a person who keeps the commands of God, not languishing in their old lives of disobedience:

"9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child..." - 1 John 3:9-10

We have this huge movement in the church today that says John is not right and says salvation by grace means you do not have to change or that would be a works gospel. But John says their unchanged lives show they are not children of God. The church says John is wrong and that they are children of God because they believe. But as we see, if they really did believe they'd have changed/changing lives.

 

[JLB]

We have this huge movement in the church today that says John is not right and says salvation by grace means you do not have to change or that would be a works gospel. John says their unchanged lives show they are not children of God. The church says John is wrong and that they are children of God because they believe. But as we see, if they really did believe they'd have changed/changing lives.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God says that if you do not Completely Trust His Gospel to the Point That you REST in it and IT ALONE , you are being “ Disobedient” and you are an “ UNBELIEVER”.

The truth that escapes the church is the fact that if you were really resting in Christ you'd be working the righteousness of God, just as Christ did. Not to earn salvation, but because you are saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe when the Roots of problems get Transformed, outward , sinful things will take care of themselves.Maybe when the Town Drunk gets his Inner - Man changed by the Holy Spirit— He will Lose all desire for that bottle.....that is where I would put “ my” money.....

For the genuine believer this inner transformation has already occurred. Growing up into obedience to God's commands is a matter of the mind and the flesh being brought into conformity with the transformation that has already occurred in the truly born again person. If you have no struggle between a transformation that has already occurred inside of you and what your mind and body are doing on the outside then I suggest that you probably do not have the transformation inside of you in salvation that you think you have. The person who is waiting around for this inner transformation is not born again. The born again person already has the inner transformation working it's way outward into his flesh.

 

[Tradidi]

You have no idea how much it Pleases me to know that you see “ Progress” in my Walk Of Faith—— NOT......lol
I can also say legitimately, “ Grace Plus Nothing” ...... “ Nothing But The Blood”..... “Christ’s Blood and Out Faith, Plus Nothing”......

The Gospel for Your Salvation ( 1cor15:1-4 ) or as commonly referred to several times in the NT... “Paul’s Gospel”.... is a Promise Of Jesus .... Jesus told Paul to reveal it to the Jews And the Gentiles...
If somebody simply hears the Gospel and Believes that Gospel, a Gospel That proclaims That “Jesus died for our Sins and Rose from the Grave”. Believing this and this ALONE , is fully Efficient to get the job of Salvation accomplished.
If one feels that the this Gospel might be “ essential” for Salvation , but just not wholly “Adequate” For Salvation, they could be tempted to make a VERY big mistake, and 90% of the Church World is probably Guilty of it. People don’t fully Trust this Promise as it is presented and as it stands—— this Gospel is a Gospel Of Pure Grace—People seems to be unable to take the plunge and Just Believe it. They insist on adding a little “ Works insurance” to the mix. God won’t have it—- you can NOT mix Law and Grace—- Law will always Cancel Grace, and it Grace that Saves. In fact, Jesus warns, through the Writings Of “ His Chosen Vessel” Paul That If Anybody trues to Add Works to His Grace Plan Of the Gospel, you will be “ Fallen From Grace” and “ Severed From the Cross” Sound like serious stuff ? You bet. You ever hear it in church? I know that I didn’t. Some teachers say to “fall from Grace” means Damnation- - others say it does not.Beats Me! Why take a chance? If you add “Good WorkS , Tithing, Church Attendance, Doing your best to keep the Commandments, repenting Of all of your known Sins before you did—- you name it. Anything that reeks Of Human Effort , which is all that “ religion” is, ain’t gonna fly.....
If making additions to Paul’s Gospel were not Bad enough——God says that if you take the next step that involves a person “ Teaching” it.......you are “Accursed”. That means you are going to Hell. Gulp.See how SERIOUS this stuff is? It gets worse....
God says that if you do not Completely Trust His Gospel to the Point That you REST in it and IT ALONE , you are being “ Disobedient” and you are an “ UNBELIEVER”.If you are Resting in the Gospel , that means that you are+no longer concerned about Losing Your Salvation—- Secure because you now realize that The True Gospel is ALL of God. It’s not what you “ DO” for Him. It’s what HE did for YOU!
He Shed His Blood for you......HE Did HIS PART......God is going to test every “ so- called” man and woman of Faith” throughout the World......No different from the Jews that were tested by God to see if they had the FAiTH to enter the Promised Land.God wants to know if you have the Faith to enter the REST that comes with Total Faith in His Promise Of the Gospel Plus NOTHING.
Do you have this Faith that God Commands or are you going to “ Die in the Desert Wilderness” with the other “ Gospel Perverters” , as Paul So “ sweetly” put it. Don’t find yourself on Judgement Day saying you added to the Gospel because you falsely believed the Blood and the Sacrifice just couldnt get the Job done alone. Like Cain , you self- righteously figured you were going to do things “ Your” way.... “ Look what “I” did God! Now give me what I earned !” God ain’t gonna be in Debt to anybody. All you will hear is this—- “ Depart From Me, I Never Knew You”......
Remember, you May not get this stuff in Church, but you got it now—-They sing the Song, But they sing it and don’t really Believe “ It” or the Heart Of The Gospel.....you are going to find out , and let’s hope that is not in a bad way, that All along, the Song had it Nailed—- It really was True—- Nothing But The Blood of Jesus. God bless

Please tell me, if disobedience was such a big sin that Adam and Eve could lose all of their gifts, including salvation, what makes you think that disobedience is no longer a big deal now? Sounds like we're not only redeemed, we even got a "better" deal than Adam and Eve out of it!

Sorry friend, I think you've got itchy ears.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

The truth that escapes the church is the fact that if you were really resting in Christ you'd be working the righteousness of God, just as Christ did. Not to earn salvation, but because you are saved.

The more I REST , the better my Obedience becomes.....The more I REST in what Jesus accomplished at the Cross , the better my Obedience becomes ......The more I REST in the Fact that I can do whatever I WANT to do and never be damned for it——- the more MY WANTS line up with God’s Wants.....When I found out that I was a “ Free Man in Christ “ all that I wanted to do was to be God’s Slave....
Christianity is chock- full of Paradoxes.... Crazy isn’t it ? Ya gotta live it to understand it.....

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Please tell me, if disobedience was such a big sin that Adam and Eve could lose all of their gifts, including salvation, what makes you think that disobedience is no longer a big deal now? Sounds like we're not only redeemed, we even got a "better" deal than Adam and Eve out of it!

Sorry friend, I think you've got itchy ears.

No need to apologize —- you have the right to be wrong.Show me where I said that “ Disobedience is no longer a big deal.” Disobedience IS a big deal—- it will get you Chastised .Trust me—- that HURTS! God does not play games when He disciplines His Children .Disobedience will ALWAYS come back to haunt you . Thanks to God’s Grace, it just will not DAMN you.....only UNBELIEF can do That.....
Btw, Adam and Eve were Saved .....we’ll save that for another time ....

 

[Tradidi]

No need to apologize —- you have the right to be wrong.Show me where I said that “ Disobedience is no longer a big deal.” Disobedience IS a big deal—- it will get you Chastised .Trust me—- that HURTS! God does not play games when He disciplines His Children .Disobedience will ALWAYS come back to haunt you . Thanks to God’s Grace, it just will not DAMN you.....only UNBELIEF can do That.....
Btw, Adam and Eve were Saved .....we’ll save that for another time ....

Tell me, does Matthew 25:41 sound like a chastisement or a damnation?

 

[JLB]

The more I REST , the better my Obedience becomes.....The more I REST in what Jesus accomplished at the Cross , the better my Obedience becomes ......The more I REST in the Fact that I can do whatever I WANT to do and never be damned for it——- the more MY WANTS line up with God’s Wants.....When I found out that I was a “ Free Man in Christ “ all that I wanted to do was to be God’s Slave....
Christianity is chock- full of Paradoxes.... Crazy isn’t it ? Ya gotta live it to understand it.....

The crucified life is me resting and His life living in preeminence within me, so that I’m being led by the Spirit, rather than living a sinful life according to the flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Tell me, does Matthew 25:41 sound like a chastisement or a damnation?

Damnation.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Damnation for all those on the Left (Unbelievers in Jesus).....
Salvation for all of those on the Right ( they did the Will Of God—- they all “ Believed on the One He sent )

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The more I REST in the Fact that I can do whatever I WANT to do and never be damned for it——- the more MY WANTS line up with God’s Wants...

You're living in a delusion.

Whether you use it or not, faith in Christ is not a license to sin.
You came to Christ for the wrong reason if you think Christ makes it so you can do anything you want and you can't be damned for it. Whether you want to do whatever you want or not is not the point. Just to think God's grace is a license to sin shows me you did not seek salvation for the right reason. You will not survive the persecution as a Christian that has started in America. You will cut and run.

 

[JLB]

Damnation for all those on the Left (Unbelievers in Jesus).....
Salvation for all of those on the Right ( they did the Will Of God—- they all “ Believed on the One He sent )

Nothing you just said is even remotely close to what Jesus said in Matthew 25.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46



Both groups recognized Jesus as Lord and asked exactly the same question.


Here is what believers in Christ asked Him —


“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
Matthew 25:37


“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Matthew 25:44



Some believers were faithful to love others, and Some believers were not.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You will cut and run.

Furthermore many will betray one another, like Judas betrayed the Lord.


“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Matthew 24:9-10


And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.


When you betray even one of the least of His people, you have betrayed Him.


And we certainly know what is taught about Christians who hate each other.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15



JLB

 

[Tradidi]

Damnation for all those on the Left (Unbelievers in Jesus).....
Salvation for all of those on the Right ( they did the Will Of God—- they all “ Believed on the One He sent )

The only problem with your reply is that it is a complete fabrication.

Matthew 25 tells us that the ones on the left will be damned not they because they failed to believe, but because they failed to do. And the ones on the right will be saved, not because they merely believed, but because they did good works to prove it. Both believed, the ones on the left without works/charity/obedience, the ones on the right with works/charity/obedience.

Matthew 7:23-26 leaves you even less wiggle room:

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

How much clearer could Jesus have been when He said "depart from me, you that work iniquity"?

Remember also Paul saying that your faith will profit you nothing if you do not have charity:

and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:2)

And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity. ( 1 Corinthians 13:13)

So if you really want to simplify or summarise the Gospel into a meme or an easy to remember slogan, this is it: faith, hope and charity.

 

[Walpole]

Even the demons hope.....and they tremble......

Did Paul ever say, “ By Grace ye are Saved,through hope”

Did Jesus ever say , “ Your HOPE has Saved you, go in peace ....”
Yeah, I thought not....

I’ll say it again......Jesus told the Sinful Woman,” Go In Peace, your FAITH has Saved you”
He did not throw in , “ Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that thing about Grace.It was your Faith Plus Grace That really Saved you....I should never forget to mention that.And while I am at it ...for you to have that Faith ,,you had to be Born ,and then you had to hear about me, and to “ hear” you had to have an eardrum , and then you had to have an auditory nerve to take the message to the hearing part of your brain.........
I hope you get the point.....some things go without saying....The Grace Of God is involved and in fact, combined with Faith in the Salvation Of Anybody.....Some things are so obvious they can go without mentioning....

Did Paul write, "For we are saved by hope" to the Romans or not?

 

[Walpole]

The only problem with your reply is that it is a complete fabrication.

Matthew 25 tells us that the ones on the left will be damned not they because they failed to believe, but because they failed to do. And the ones on the right will be saved, not because they merely believed, but because they did good works to prove it. Both believed, the ones on the left without works/charity/obedience, the ones on the right with works/charity/obedience.

Matthew 7:23-26 leaves you even less wiggle room:

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

How much clearer could Jesus have been when He said "depart from me, you that work iniquity"?

Remember also Paul saying that your faith will profit you nothing if you do not have charity:

and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Corinthians 13:2)

And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity. ( 1 Corinthians 13:13)

So if you really want to simplify or summarise the Gospel into a meme or an easy to remember slogan, this is it: faith, hope and charity.

Great post.


Here are a few additional observations regarding Matthew 25 I think are important...

- First, notice the goats in St. Matthew's last judgement account acknowledge Christ as their Lord. (Sola fide didn't save them.)

- Secondly, notice both the sheep and the goats are actually surprised by our Blessed Lord's judgement. (Demonstrating virtuousness is a habit.)

- Thirdly, and more importantly, notice our Blessed Lord's final words in St. Matthew's last judgement account. Those words are...

---> "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Mt. 25:46)


The righteous: δίκαιος / dikaios = observing the divine laws; upright; righteous; virtuous; keeping the commands of God