Edward
2024 Supporter
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Edward
2024 Supporter
That is not the easiest passage to understand so let's put it in context and take a closer look, shall we?
Matthew 5:16-22
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.../
Now right off the bat before He says what you quoted He says let your light shine before men...
That does not sound like someone who does not follow the law but does follow it and behaves themself and not lying or committing adultery etc.,
Then He says that He has not come to destroy the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill them...
He's talking about fulfilling the Law by being sinless, and then giving His life and blood as payment for man's sin.
Then He goes on in v18...for truely I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all has been fulfilled...
Has heaven and earth passed away yet? Does "until ALL has been fulfilled" mean the same thing as "the Law and the Prophets" being fulfilled by Jesus? No. There is more to be fullfilled yet, so the Law IS still in effect. He is talking about two different things and goes on to clarify what He means in verses 19-22 so there is no confusion. You better not break even the least of the commandments or risk being called least in heaven. And your righteousness better be more than the Pharisees was (and He called them vipers and hypocrites!). In fact you better not even call someone names or a fool or you may find yourself in danger of the council or even hell fire! (Or even look at a woman in lust!)
So...no Brother. You misunderstood that passage. We are not dead to the Law. We can't go out chasing girls or wot-not. I suggest studying the entire chapter of Matthew 5 because He really is very clear about it.
In Matthew 5:17 Jesus clearly stated His position on the law of God as He upheld it throughout His ministry. The laws have been fulfilled in the coming of Christ as the law and prophecies pointed to Messiah come in fulfillment of the law and prophecies. This is what Christ did through His birth, death and resurrection. All things of the law and prophecies will be fulfilled when Christ returns on the last day.
Jesus did not come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. The law is very much alive today as when it was given, but yet there are no saving provisions in them as they are not of faith unto righteousness. Matthew 5:18 Jesus explains that until God's plan to glorify humanity in His Kingdom is completely accomplished the physical codification of God's law is necessary and is as certain to endure as the continued existence of the universe.
We no longer follow the laws of the Temple and the sacrifices as Christ has already fulfilled those parts. The moral parts of the law are for Christian behavior through the greatest commandment of love, Matthew 22:34-40. The moral parts are found in Matthew 5:21-48 in how we are to deal with anger, lust, divorce, oaths, retaliation and loving your enemies.
This is the law of Christ in the NT:
Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Amen to all.
Well said.
Jesus came to restore to us, what Satan usurped from mankind through deception.
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Matthew 28:18-20
In Christ, we have dominion over Satan and his kingdom.
The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. John 10:10
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons...
Mark 16:16-17
JLB
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Ernest T. Bass
Member
The implication remains is if Christ did not remove all the OT law by fulfilling it, then ALL of it remains and we today have an obligation to obey ALL of it including the animal sacrifices, purifications, etc, etc.. Again, no verse has been shown that Christ took away only some of the law while leaving other parts of the OT law.
Matthew 5:18 - The verse is not saying the OT law would continue till heaven and earth pass away. Heaven and earth would remain in place 'till all be fulfilled'....which it has been fulfilled.
Luke's account says " And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." Luke 16:17. When Christ did fulfill it, the OT law had not failed and Christ took it out of the way, all of it. Nothing here saying the OT law would last as long as heaven and earth last.
Matthew 5:19-20 does not say the OT law will be binding upon those in the 'kingdom of heaven'. Such an ideal contradicts other verses in the NT as Romans 7:1-4; Ephesians 2:15; etc. The idea is if one would break 'small' laws under the OT he would most likely break laws under Christ's NT. Therefore a man's diosbedience (or obedience) he had under the OT law would indicate if that man would disobey (or obey) Christ under the NT. Those then that will be 'great' in the kingdom of heaven will be the ones that adhere to the 'least' commandmenst as much as the 'greatest' commandments. It was not uncommon the scribes and Pharisees broke the OT law. Therefore for those in the kingdom must have a righteousness better than the scribes and Pharisees. CHrist then proceeds to show the contrast in how the Phaisees saw the law (adultery was only the physical act) to making spiritual act (lust) sinful also. Hence the Christian's righteousness in the kingdom under the NT should exceed the righteousness of those Phaisees.
Agreed.
However the Abrahamic Covenant was established in Genesis before the law of Moses.
We are grafted into this Covenant, which has been renewed by Christ, and has become the New Covenant.
The “New” Covenant is new as in refreshed or renewed.
Gentiles are now called children of Abraham through faith in Christ.
Also, the blessing of Abraham is come upon the Gentiles in Christ.
JLB
Drew
Member
I am following none of the 613 laws.
This is because I believe Paul when he writes that the law has been abolished (Ephesians 2) or, equivalently as in Romans 7, that we no longer serve in the 'oldness of the letter' (an obviously allusion to the Law).
Do I commit murder? No. Adultery? No. Do I covet my neighbor's donkey? Again no.
I bet you will argue that this last sentence means I am really still following the moral law.
Well, not really. Consonant with Paul's argument, I am following the indwelling Spirit.
If the Spirit is unable to let me know that murder is wrong, without me having to consult a list in the Old Testament, then what does that say about the Spirit?
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Drew
Member
I agree and politely suggest that a perhaps understandable measure of Biblical illiteracy is responsible for the confusion here. There is a tradition within Jewish writing - Biblical and extra-Biblical - of using 'end of the world' language as a metaphor to denote significant change and upheaval in the current world order. Isaiah, for example, uses such 'end of the world` language to predict the fall of Babylon.
So when Jesus says the law will last 'till all be fulfilled`, we don't need to be Albert Einstein to consider whether these words from the lips of a dying Jesus do not constitute that fulfillment:
'It is finished' - John 19:30
Drew
Member
Not really. Certainly not because they are in the Law of Moses. Look: I get it - it is hard for you to see how I could say the 10 Commandments are 'set aside' and yet that I can still affirm that it is wrong to commit adultery and commit murder. But my reasoning is sound. Suppose there was a law against driving over 60 miles per hour. Then the government, for whatever reason, abolishes the law. Does this mean that I am left completely confused about whether I should speed? Of course not! I have an inner moral sense that tells me that, for my sake and the sake of others, I should not speed.
So I do not need any law to inform my behavior on the roads.
And if God's Holy Spirit - which Paul, I suggest, argues replaces the Law - is not up to the task of letting me know I should not bash in my neighbor's skull with a 3-iron, well......
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1
Walking before the Lord in His presence, is how Abraham was able keep His commandments and laws, because he received them by faith, which means he learned them directly from God, in which he received grace to obey the Lord.
- Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5
This is how we are to live out our covenant life today, with the same Lord, Abraham loved and obeyed.
Same Lord instructs us to do the same thing today, to be blameless.
- walk before Me and be blameless.
- Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
JLB
The commandments and laws of the Lord were already a part of the Abrahamic Covenant, before the law of Moses was added.
Therefore, when the law of Moses was abolished, these laws and commandments that Abraham received and obeyed, were never annulled, being part of that covenant, some 430 years before Moses gave the law.
- And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,
Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:15-19
- What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come
By saying, “until”, the Spirit is indicating that the law was temporary.
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
You think the New Covenant abolishes the Mosaic Covenant.
The commandments become obsolete when Jesus, who kept every commandment perfectly, comes to teach us that they are now abolished.
Good deeds are no longer NECESSARY because Jesus died for us.
I DO understand you Drew.
I just don't agree.
I had started a thread titled
DO WE DO THE WORK OR DOES GOD?
You should check it out.
The New Covenant law of Christ is through faith in Him.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
A new covenant was established as men's heart turned to stone as they kept breaking the laws of God making the laws to become a curse to all who broke them. The old covenant was broken, like a broken marriage as men turned away from God breaking His covenant with their iniquities. Just like all of us today, we do wrong already knowing what is right to do as Paul wrote that all have sinned. But know we are made righteous in the eyes of God through His grace by having faith in Christ Jesus who has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us as we do not make void the law through faith, but establish the laws now written upon our hearts, Romans 3:21-31.
1 Corinthians 11:25 This cup is the new covenant between God and you, sealed by the shedding of the blood of Christ.
The law of God that is written upon out hearts is the greatest commandment of love that if we walk in love then we will walk in obedience to all of God's law, Matthew 22:36-40; John 13:34, 25. Under the old commands love was demanded from us, but under the new covenant, being a better covenant, love is given unto us in "As I have loved you". God's love has been poured out into our hearts by giving us the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of the resurrected Christ.
* Under the old, the law was a rule for the weak men to obey. Under the new, the law is the Spirit of Christ given to us, loving us that we love others through Him
*Under the old, you loved others out of fear of punishment. Under the new, you love because the love of Christ is in you as it is His nature to love.
*Under the old, you had to make an effort to obey, under the new, you have to make an effort to disobey.
If we are walking in the greatest commandment of love then we are in obedience to all the moral laws.
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
A new covenant was established as men's heart turned to stone as they kept breaking the laws of God making the laws to become a curse to all who broke them. The old covenant was broken, like a broken marriage as men turned away from God breaking His covenant with their iniquities. Just like all of us today, we do wrong already knowing what is right to do as Paul wrote that all have sinned. But know we are made righteous in the eyes of God through His grace by having faith in Christ Jesus who has redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us as we do not make void the law through faith, but establish the laws now written upon our hearts, Romans 3:21-31.
1 Corinthians 11:25 This cup is the new covenant between God and you, sealed by the shedding of the blood of Christ.
The law of God that is written upon out hearts is the greatest commandment of love that if we walk in love then we will walk in obedience to all of God's law, Matthew 22:36-40; John 13:34, 25. Under the old commands love was demanded from us, but under the new covenant, being a better covenant, love is given unto us in "As I have loved you". God's love has been poured out into our hearts by giving us the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of the resurrected Christ.
* Under the old, the law was a rule for the weak men to obey. Under the new, the law is the Spirit of Christ given to us, loving us that we love others through Him
*Under the old, you loved others out of fear of punishment. Under the new, you love because the love of Christ is in you as it is His nature to love.
*Under the old, you had to make an effort to obey, under the new, you have to make an effort to disobey.
If we are walking in the greatest commandment of love then we are in obedience to all the moral laws.
Drew
Member
The evidence shows that Jesus at least challenged many elements of the Law of Moses. For example, he declared that no food defiles the Jew, in strict contradiction to the Law of Moses. He also taught that He (Jesus) was the place to come for forgiveness of sin. The Law of Moses is quite clear - it is the Temple that is the place where sin is forgiven. He also challenged the Sabbath, or at least radically re-interpreted it. He also allowed himself to contact lepers and others whom the law declared unclean.
Jesus's actions are carefully calculated, I suggest, to announce to the nation of Israel that a new covenant was about to begin, rendering the old one obsolete.
What do you think Paul means when he writes (Romans 7) that we "no longer serve in the oldness of the letter"?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Can't write now. On phone.
I'll only say this.
I've taught the Covenants and I can tell you that
NO Covenant abolished the previous one, only changed it or made it better.
You could check this out ITMT and I'll write later on.
Drew
Member
I will wait to read more. To be fair, the fact that you have taught a subject does not ensure your position is correct. I, too, have studied the scriptures extensively and I would not make the claims I am making if I did not believe they were Biblically defensible.
Episcopius
Member
The LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS has set me free from the law of sin and death