WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[JLB]

I also bet a dollar that after all is done on this earth and we are all in the new heaven that the Sabbath will be valid

The Sabbath is valid.

The weekly Sabbath points is to the rest to come when Jesus returns and removes the wicked and we live with Him here for 1000 years with physical bodies that contain no sin and shine like the sun.

The rest from our enemies.

For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”
Hebrews 4:4-5

This will be the seventh prophetic day, or the seven thousandth year from Adam.

This will be the fulfillment of Genesis 2:2

And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Genesis 2:2


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Hebrews 4:8-9


Peter says it this way.


But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

The OT or law of Moses regulated the religion of Judaism while the NT gospel regulates Christianity. Therefore the Christian has to look to the NT as his guide, not the OT.

--As I pointed out in an earlier post, it would be sinful, spiritual type of adultery for a Christian to try and keep both Moses' and Christ's NT at the same time Romans 7:1-4.

--Matthew 5:7-18 if Christ did not take ALL the OT law out of the way, then ALL of it, every jot and tittle, is still binding today. And the man know as Jesus would not be the Christ for a purpose of the Christ's in coming to earth was to do away with the OT law, Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14.

--in Paul's Galatian epistle, there were Christians in Galatian that allowed themselves to be lead astray by Judaizing teachers by leaving the NT gospel going back to the OT and Paul condemned them for such. Paul's point to them is why leave a system in the NT of justification by grace and go back to a law that required justification by strict, perfect law keeping. They could not keep that OT law perfectly and just one sin would bring the curse of the law upon them, Galatians 3:10-13. Since that OT law required strict, perfect adherence and since they could not keep it perfectly is why Paul would say " But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.." Galatians 3:11. Going back to the OT law means they must keep the "WHOLE" law, Galatians 5:3, perfectly. Jews under the OT law could not pick and choose between laws they liked to keep while ignoring other laws but had to keep the WHOLE law perfectly to be justified before God.

A Christian then would follow the "moral laws" found within the NT. Adultery, both the physical and spiritual aspects, are sinful because Christ says they are.

What else besides adultery does Jesus say is sinful?

 

[GodsGrace]

Whether the NT or the OT it’s always been justification by faith.

This is what is revealed in the writings of the New Testament.


Maybe we could shift the conversation to discuss what faith is, and how faith works to produce the intended divine result.

Only the “work” or action of obedience justifies.

IOW People that obey God, are in right standing (righteous) with Him.

This was true in the garden and it’s is true today.


JLB

What is faith and why does it produce the intended divine result?

 

[GodsGrace]

The OT or law of Moses regulated the religion of Judaism while the NT gospel regulates Christianity. Therefore the Christian has to look to the NT as his guide, not the OT.

--As I pointed out in an earlier post, it would be sinful, spiritual type of adultery for a Christian to try and keep both Moses' and Christ's NT at the same time Romans 7:1-4.

--Matthew 5:7-18 if Christ did not take ALL the OT law out of the way, then ALL of it, every jot and tittle, is still binding today. And the man know as Jesus would not be the Christ for a purpose of the Christ's in coming to earth was to do away with the OT law, Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14.

--in Paul's Galatian epistle, there were Christians in Galatian that allowed themselves to be lead astray by Judaizing teachers by leaving the NT gospel going back to the OT and Paul condemned them for such. Paul's point to them is why leave a system in the NT of justification by grace and go back to a law that required justification by strict, perfect law keeping. They could not keep that OT law perfectly and just one sin would bring the curse of the law upon them, Galatians 3:10-13. Since that OT law required strict, perfect adherence and since they could not keep it perfectly is why Paul would say " But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.." Galatians 3:11. Going back to the OT law means they must keep the "WHOLE" law, Galatians 5:3, perfectly. Jews under the OT law could not pick and choose between laws they liked to keep while ignoring other laws but had to keep the WHOLE law perfectly to be justified before God.

A Christian then would follow the "moral laws" found within the NT. Adultery, both the physical and spiritual aspects, are sinful because Christ says they are.

Who said we have to keep the Law of Moses?

 

[JLB]

What is faith and why does it produce the intended divine result?

When God speaks, He creates.

When God speaks to us, He imparts faith.

Faith is substance; Divine substance.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


That which is seen, is made from this invisible substance.


Enter man. Man who is made in the image and likeness of God.

God has given man the earth.

The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
Psalm 115:16


Man has dominion over everything else on earth, to bring about God’s purpose on earth.


So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion... Genesis 1:27-28

Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it;
have dominion.

Jesus Christ was the example of how to accomplish this.

When God desires to accomplish His purposes in the earth He does so with man.

God desires to teach man His ways, and to establish His kingdom laws in man, so man will govern the earth as God’s kingdom is governed in heaven.

This interaction between God and man produces faith in man. When man walks with God in relationship with Him, there is communion and there is communication. When God communicates with us He imparts Life to us, which have as components, both faith and grace.


And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. Genesis 5:24


By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:5


God has designed for man to learn directly from Him; through faith.


However, faith must have the corresponding action of obedience or faith is incomplete, and remains inactive, dormant or as James says, dead, as a body without a spirit is dead, in which it is unable to produce the intended divine result.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17


This principle of faith is called the “obedience of faith“.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


The entire book of Romans is contextually encompassed in this principle.


JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Who said we have to keep the Law of Moses?

No one has to keep the law of Moses since Christ took all out it out of the way making it inactive.

Paul's point to those in Galatia that allowed themselves to be lead away from the NT back to the OT were told justification by the OT law require one keep the WHOLE law. Just keeping parts of the OT law would not justify. Just keeping the 10 commandments would not justify them.

Under the OT law, circumcision was the beginning point, the intial right in pledging to keep the WHOLE the OT law. Yet when Paul says circimcision is nothing (1 Corinthians 7:19) circumcision does not avail anything (Galatians 5:6; Galatians 6:15) his point is keeping any of the OT law avails nothing when it comes to justification. Galatians 5:2-3 by being circumcised, those Galatians obligated themselves to keep the WHOLE law and Christ would not profit them anything. Those that try and find justification by keeping the OT law are severed from Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What else besides adultery does Jesus say is sinful?

Lying, stealing murder, etc, etc. You can read the the gospel accounts the things Christ condemned.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Whether the NT or the OT it’s always been justification by faith.

This is what is revealed in the writings of the New Testament.


Maybe we could shift the conversation to discuss what faith is, and how faith works to produce the intended divine result.

Only the “work” or action of obedience justifies.

IOW People that obey God, are in right standing (righteous) with Him.

This was true in the garden and it’s is true today.


JLB

Yes, they had different things to be obedient to under the OT law of Moses (circumcision, animal sacrifices, purifications, etc) compared to what we are to obey under the NT law of Christ (belief, repentance, confession, baptism)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I don't believe so.

Ephesians 2:15
Ephesians 2:14 is speaking about how Jesus has made the Jews and the Gentiles into one family.
Jesus broke down the barrier of the dividing wall...He broke down the wall that separated the Jews and the Gentiles.

2:15 speaks of how Jesus ended the dividing line between the "favored" Jews and the Gentiles, because He annulled the whole system of Jewish LAWS, ordinances and the law of commandments CONTAINED IN THE ORDINANCES,
this does not refer to the 10 commandments.

Colossians 2:14

See verse 16 which states that festivals and food were only temporary rules till Christ came....the Moral Law is NOT temporary and is still in force today.

It was the OT law that separated the Jews from the Gentiles, the law only given to the Jews. By taking away that OT law, Christ brought Jew and Gentile together under His NT law. The 10 commandments were not given to the Gentiles to keep, but Gentile and Jew are to both keep Christ's NT law that does not require Sabbath keeping with 10 commandments being part of the OT law, commands, ordinance Christ took out of the way. Paul told those Colossians (Colossians 2:16) not to allow the false Judaizing teachers to judge them in meats, drinks holy days, new moon or a sabbath day. All refer to Jewish rites under the OT law. Paul was warning them about those Judaizers trying to impose keeping the Sabbath Day upon them. Keeping the Sabbath was no more required than keeping the OT dietary restrictions, feast days (passover) new moons (other feasts). The fact the Christian is not obliged to keep the Sabbath is further proof the 10 commandments are not in effect today.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

As I understand it, the Law is for the unbelievers. Believers are born again and in Christ, Christ in us, so we are not subject to the Law. King David is a good example. He was Spirit filled and yes he did stumble and sin here and there, but He cling to the Lord and turn right back to the Lord and so was forgiven. His Love covers a multitude of sins so as long as we abide in Him and repent and ask forgiveness when we stumble, we are forgiven. Right?

I have not seen any scripture that says the Law was abolished or taken away. The Lord said, I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it.

Christ took away the OT law therefore we today are not subject to any of it. We today are under Christ's NT law, as Paul said he was under law to Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21). As a Jew under the OT law, Saul/Paul kept the law (Philippians 3:5-7) but upon converting to Christianity Paul became dead to the OT law (Galatians 2:19). All Christians are dead to the OT law, not just some of the OT law but ALL of it.

 

[GodsGrace]

When God speaks, He creates.

When God speaks to us, He imparts faith.

Faith is substance; Divine substance.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


That which is seen, imade from this invisible substance.


Enter man. Man who is made in the image and likeness of God.

God has given man the earth.

The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
Psalm 115:16

Great post!


The N.T. also tells us that the evil one is the prince of the air...
Ephesians 2:2
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

We are also told that we fight not against flesh and blood but against principalities.
Ephesians 6:12
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

The earth was given to us by God....
but it has been taken away by satan and is controlled by Him, due to the fall.

Man has dominion over everything else on earth, to bring about God’s purpose on earth.


So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion... Genesis 1:27-28

Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it;
have dominion.

Jesus Christ was the example of how to accomplish this.

When God desires to accomplish His purposes in the earth He does so with man.

Amen!
I have often said that WE are the hands and feet of God....He works through us in what He wishes to accomplish.

God desires to teach man His ways, and to establish His kingdom laws in man, so man will govern the earth as God’s kingdom is governed in heaven.

This interaction between God and man produces faith in man. When man walks with God in relationship to Him, there is communion and there is communication. When God communicates with us He imparts Life to us, which have as components of faith and grace.


And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. Genesis 5:24


By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5


God has designed for man to learn directly from Him; through faith.


However, faith must have the corresponding action of obedience or faith is incomplete, and remains inactive, dormant or as James says, dead, as a body without a spirit is dead, in which it is unable to produce the intended divine result.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17


This principle of faith is called the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


The entire book of Romans is contextually encompassed in this principle.


JLB

Amen.
Nothing really to add, except we are told that through Jesus all the kindness of God has been poured out upon us, and all are to believe and obey....the obedience of faith.
Romans 1:5
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Not all the laws have been fulfilled yet because the second coming of Christ has not happened yet. The only laws that have been fulfilled through Christ are those that were especially made for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. The laws that still exist are the moral laws that are a part of the 613 Mosaic/Levitcal laws that all Jews and Gentiles are to follow as I have already listed them. The greatest commandment is love and if we are walking in love then the moral laws should not be a burden nor should we fail in following them.

The guidance of the NT teachings are that of a better covenant by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus who has redeemed us from the curse of the law. No one can be justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith and the law is not of faith, Galatians 3:10-14.

If all the prophecies about Christ were not fulfilled by Christ, then every "jot and tittle" of the law is still in effect today and the man known as Jesus was not the Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

No one has to keep the law of Moses since Christ took all out it out of the way making it inactive.

Paul's point to those in Galatia that allowed themselves to be lead away from the NT back to the OT were told justification by the OT law require one keep the WHOLE law. Just keeping parts of the OT law would not justify. Just keeping the 10 commandments would not justify them.

Under the OT law, circumcision was the beginning point, the intial right in pledging to keep the WHOLE the OT law. Yet when Paul says circimcision is nothing (1 Corinthians 7:19) circumcision does not avail anything (Galatians 5:6; Galatians 6:15) his point is keeping any of the OT law avails nothing when it comes to justification. Galatians 5:2-3 by being circumcised, those Galatians obligated themselves to keep the WHOLE law and Christ would not profit them anything. Those that try and find justification by keeping the OT law are severed from Christ.

OK,,,so you're saying that everyone in the O.T. was headed for hellfire.
They were all lost because they could not keep the law.

Also, you didn't answer WHO ON THIS THREAD, said that we have to keep the Law of Moses.

Could you reply to just the above so we could clear up some stuff...
you're just repeating what you've been saying.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lying, stealing murder, etc, etc. You can read the the gospel accounts the things Christ condemned.

Would you say this corresponds to the 10 Commandments?

 

[GodsGrace]

It was the OT law that separated the Jews from the Gentiles, the law only given to the Jews. By taking away that OT law, Christ brought Jew and Gentile together under His NT law. The 10 commandments were not given to the Gentiles to keep, but Gentile and Jew are to both keep Christ's NT law that does not require Sabbath keeping with 10 commandments being part of the OT law, commands, ordinance Christ took out of the way. Paul told those Colossians (Colossians 2:16) not to allow the false Judaizing teachers to judge them in meats, drinks holy days, new moon or a sabbath day. All refer to Jewish rites under the OT law. Paul was warning them about those Judaizers trying to impose keeping the Sabbath Day upon them. Keeping the Sabbath was no more required than keeping the OT dietary restrictions, feast days (passover) new moons (other feasts). The fact the Christian is not obliged to keep the Sabbath is further proof the 10 commandments are not in effect today.

You're all over the place Ernest T. Bass.
I'm finding it difficult to discuss this with you.

The Gentiles were spoken of in the Covenant with Abraham and David.
They were ALWAYS meant to become a part of the Jewish family of God.

Circumcision is a CEREMONIAL LAW and was thus abolished.
Same for MEATS, DRINKS, HOLY DAYS.

Can you list some things Paul SAID NOT TO DO,,,perhaps from
Romans 13:8......
1 Corinthians 5:9.....
Galatians 5:17.....

That should be enough.
Do these instructions have to do with eating meat, or getting circumcised?
What DO these instructions have to do with?
Perhaps Moral Law?

Could you answer this one simple question with a yes or no?

ARE WE REQUIRED TO KEEP THE 9 COMMANDMENTS?

 

[GodsGrace]

If all the prophecies about Christ were not fulfilled by Christ, then every "jot and tittle" of the law is still in effect today and the man known as Jesus was not the Christ.

The Jews were awaiting a Messiah that was powerful and would be able to overthrow the Romans.
They were also waiting for a Messiah that would teach them how to love God...which the current Pharisees were not doing.

Jesus fulfilled many prophecies....
but not the ones of a mighty Messiah...
that will be fulfilled when He returns.

The O.T. and N.T. cannot be separated the way you are doing.
They are one book and should be considered as such.

Every Covenant made in the O.T. is also for us today...at least some parts of it.
If you are forgiven your sins...it is because Jesus is the Lamb of God.
Everyone in the O.T. has been forgiven through the sacrifice of Jesus.
The bible cannot be divided.

 

[JLB]

Yes, they had different things to be obedient to under the OT law of Moses (circumcision, animal sacrifices, purifications, etc) compared to what we are to obey under the NT law of Christ (belief, repentance, confession, baptism)

Repentance, belief (obedience), confession (Levitical priesthood), were all part of being in covenant with the Lord, whether New Testament or Old Testament.


In addition, the same things were forbidden under the law of Moses as under the New Covenant...


Murder
Idolatry
Adultery
Fornication
Homosexuality
Bestiality
Drinking blood
Covetousness
Lying
Dishonoring parents
Stealing
Blasphemy


Under the New Covenant we don’t submit ourselves to the Levitical Priesthood but we have the Spirit of the Lord, our High Priest within us and He is of the order of Melchizedek.


The food laws, feast days, new moons, Sabbaths, ceremonial washings, and so forth were all part of the law of Moses.




JLB

 

[Drew]

I don't assume things Drew.
If you've been reading along, you'll find that for_his_gloryThe O.T. laws could be put into categories. I also mentions Exodus chapters 21 and 22 where this is very apparent.

First, I see no Biblical evidence that the laws break down into categories - where does Scripture say "here are some moral laws for you" and "here are some ceremonial laws"? All I see is that human beings have, quite naturally, sorted the laws into different categories. Fair enough, but even if such categories are sensible, where is the Biblical evidence that one category has been done away with another category retained. Here is a statement from Paul (Romans 7)

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Where are the categories? Did Paul write that we have been released from the ceremonial elements of the Law? No.

Now about Exodus 21 and 22: I trust you realize that the "headings" you see in some translations are not in the original text.

In any event, the key point is that there is no scriptural justification for claiming that certain parts of the Law of Moses are now set aside and others are retained.

 

[GodsGrace]

First, I see no Biblical evidence that the laws break down into categories - where does Scripture say "here are some moral laws for you" and "here are some ceremonial laws"? All I see is that human beings have, quite naturally, sorted the laws into different categories. Fair enough, but even if such categories are sensible, where is the Biblical evidence that one category has been done away with another category retained. Here is a statement from Paul (Romans 7)

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Where are the categories? Did Paul write that we have been released from the ceremonial elements of the Law? No.

Now about Exodus 21 and 22: I trust you realize that the "headings" you see in some translations are not in the original text.

In any event, the key point is that there is no scriptural justification for claiming that certain parts of the Law of Moses are now set aside and others are retained.

Are you following all of the 613 laws?
Why or why not?

Which are you following?
Why?

 

[Edward]

What is faith and why does it produce the intended divine result?

Hebrews 11:1
11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.