WAS THE LAW FULFILLED OR ABOLISHED?

[GodsGrace]

I think this is a circular argument in the sense that you are simply assuming the very thing you need to make a case for - that the Moral Law is still in effect. And the Bible never draws distinctions between one part of the Law and another - that is something you are super-imposing on the text.

Here is where I think the problem lies: you seem to not accept that we can "know" that murder is wrong without having a Law to tell us that this is the case. But there are no laws against many things, and we still know they are wrong.

We are still required to not murder, but not because it is in the Law.

I don't assume things Drew.
If you've been reading along, you'll find that for_his_glory posted a couple of links regarding how the O.T. laws were separated into categories. To this day we have civil laws, criminal laws, financial laws, etc. This has always been true. The O.T. laws could be put into categories. I also mentions Exodus chapters 21 and 22 where this is very apparent.

We can know that murder is wrong from the Natural Law...also given by God.
But how can we know adultery is wrong?
In some religions and/or cultures having two or more wives is just fine.
So since the moral law has been abolished by your belief....can a man have two wives?
Why not?

 

[GodsGrace]

If you go to Judaism 101 and click on Deeds you will find all 613 Mitzvot (commandments) broken down in 34 different categories.

Thanks FHG,,,,
I'm having a difficult time trying to convince some here that they were broken down into
3 categories!

 

[GodsGrace]

It seems to me that you are implicitly conceding that there is no Biblical basis for such categories. If so, the fact that people have come up with these categories on their own is not really evidence that they are right.

Remember: Paul never draws the distinctions you are advocating.

And even if there are such distinctions, on precisely what basis do you decide that certain categories are to be retained and others set aside?

I don't decide Drew!!
The Jewish religion has decided.
Paul DOES draw the distinctions,,,I've already posted this.

Do you have to be circumcised?
No.

Do you get to covet your neighbor's goods/wife?
No.

What's the difference?

One is the Ceremonial Law. (no longer in effect)
One is the Moral Law. (always in effect)

 

[Edward]

I agree, and concede that as far as moral comportment of the believer is concerned, the debate is, and I like your word, "moot". As long as no one is saying we should stone adulterers as the Law of Moses requires, of course.

They needed the Law back then to define sin, because Jesus had not come yet. Before the Law came sin could not be imputed unto man. So it was necessary at the time, and all of the Law was based on good principles for the time but the caveat was that the Law was followed out of a fear of punishment.

Jesus turned that around 180 degrees. Now that Jesus has been here and done His work, we learn to obey from a motivation of Love instead of to escape punishment. Therein is how the born again believers are freed from the Law without it being abolished and done away with. Because when the motivation changes to love...then that in itself would make at least portions of the Law still valid. Like tithing for instance. The Lord does not change and we are instructed to walk in love towards our neighbor, as our self. And Murder too. Love does not murder, lol!

Sabbath day? I don't see an obligation to keep the Sabbath in these days, but I guarantee you that anyone who does would in fact, please the Lord.
I also bet a dollar that after all is done on this earth and we are all in the new heaven that the Sabbath will be valid then again for us. Divine law. A day off from work to rest and fellowship with God. I'm certain of that because that's how God rolls.

 

[GodsGrace]

They needed the Law back then to define sin, because Jesus had not come yet. Before the Law came sin could not be imputed unto man. So it was necessary at the time, and all of the Law was based on good principles for the time but the caveat was that the Law was followed out of a fear of punishment.

Jesus turned that around 180 degrees. Now that Jesus has been here and done His work, we learn to obey from a motivation of Love instead of to escape punishment. Therein is how the born again believers are freed from the Law without it being abolished and done away with. Because when the motivation changes to love...then that in itself would make at least portions of the Law still valid. Like tithing for instance. The Lord does not change and we are instructed to walk in love towards our neighbor, as our self. And Murder too. Love does not murder, lol!

Sabbath day? I don't see an obligation to keep the Sabbath in these days, but I guarantee you that anyone who does would in fact, please the Lord.
I also bet a dollar that after all is done on this earth and we are all in the new heaven that the Sabbath will be valid then again for us. Divine law. A day off from work to rest and fellowship with God. I'm certain of that because that's how God rolls.

OK Ed....
But re the Sabbath in heaven....
Hey,,,,I'm trusting that EVERY DAY will be a day of rest!
You think we're gonna work up there??

 

[Edward]

OK Ed....
But re the Sabbath in heaven....
Hey,,,,I'm trusting that EVERY DAY will be a day of rest!
You think we're gonna work up there??

Yes I do think there will be work up there. I think we are largely being trained for the job right now. There is quite a bit of talk in scripture talking about...God's work, man's work, His burden is easy and His yoke is light...and I can't recall any verses that say His yoke will pass away or no more work. We enter into the joy of the Lord. There is no more pain, tears etc., but nothing about no work. It will just be a joy and an honor to work for the Lord and the working conditions will be divine, lol! Praise the Lord for that!

But just think...every 6000 years we'll get 1000 years off!

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I do think there will be work up there. I think we are largely being trained for the job right now. There is quite a bit of talk in scripture talking about...God's work, man's work, His burden is easy and His yoke is light...and I can't recall any verses that say His yoke will pass away or no more work. We enter into the joy of the Lord. There is no more pain, tears etc., but nothing about no work. It will just be a joy and an honor to work for the Lord and the working conditions will be divine, lol! Praise the Lord for that!

But just think...every 6000 years we'll get 1000 years off!

Interesting thought.
Who can know?
We'll have to wait to find out.
And the 1,000 years off sounds good.
BUT
I doubt there will be time up there.

 

[for_his_glory]

About this issue of Jesus teaching from the OT and, in fact, advocating compliance to the Law of Moses. I know this seems like a compelling argument that the Law remains in force. However, we need to concede that Jesus could have believed that while the Law remained in force, it would end with His death and resurrection.

In fact, there is a compelling hint that this is so. Remember in Matthew where Jesus says the law will remain in force 'until all is accomplished'? Well, what does Jesus declare as He as dies on the cross?

"It is finished".

What is finished or that which has been fulfilled so far on the cross is the Temple laws and sacrifices that through the death of Jesus giving himself as the final blood sacrifice for the atonement of sin was completed on the cross when He gave up the Ghost. I have already given the list of the moral laws in post #68, 71 that we are still to follow until the return of Christ.

Have you even read all 613 laws? If you have you would see what has been fulfilled already as now we who are in Christ and He in us through the Spiritual rebirth from above are the Temple of God as there is no longer a Temple made by hands

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks FHG,,,,
I'm having a difficult time trying to convince some here that they were broken down into
3 categories!

We really can not convince anyone of anything, but only present that of what we know and understand in hopes they too will eventually understand by taking what we give and go study it for themselves asking the Holy Spirit teach them.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually it was man that gave the name OT and NT as dividing one from the other, but the Bible is whole from in the beginning in Genesis 1:1 to The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen in Rev 22:21. God gave to the Prophets what to speak and write just as God gave to Jesus what to speak, John 12:49, 50.

Jesus taught from the OT including the law. The only laws that Christ has fulfilled so far are that of the Temple and its sacrifices. We are still to follow all the moral laws as we continue to walk in the greatest commandment of love.



Which Old Testament Book Did Jesus Quote From
blog.biblia.com

Jesus quoted from:
Exodus 3:6.............Matthew 22:32; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37
20:12-16.................Matthew 15:14; 19:18, 19; Mark 7:10; 10:19; Luke 18:20
21:24......................Matthew 5:38


Isaiah 6:9-10.........Matthew 13:14, 15; Mark 4:12; Luke 8:10
56:7.......................Matthew 21:13; Mark 11:17; Luke 19:46
29:13.....................Matthew 15:8, 9; Mark 7:6, 7
5:1.........................Matthew 21:33; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9
53:12.....................Luke 22:37
54:13.....................John 6:45
61:1, 2...................Matthew 11:5; Luke 4:18, 19; 7:22

Deuteronomy
6:5........................Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:29-33; Luke 10:27
24:1-3...................Matthew 5:31; 19:7; Mark 10:4
19:15....................Matthew 4:4, 7, 10; Luke 4:4, 8, 12

Psalms
82:2; 110:1...........Matthew 21:21:16; 22:44; Mark 12:36; 14:62; Luke 20:42, 43
22:1......................Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34
31:5......................Luke 23:46
35:19; 69:4..........John 15:25
41:9.....................John 13:18
78:24...................John 6:31
82:6.....................John 10:34
110:1...................Matthew 26:64
118:22, 23...........Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17
118:26.................Matthew 23:39; Luke 13:35

If you go to that website it will give you more greater detail

The OT or law of Moses regulated the religion of Judaism while the NT gospel regulates Christianity. Therefore the Christian has to look to the NT as his guide, not the OT.

--As I pointed out in an earlier post, it would be sinful, spiritual type of adultery for a Christian to try and keep both Moses' and Christ's NT at the same time Romans 7:1-4.

--Matthew 5:7-18 if Christ did not take ALL the OT law out of the way, then ALL of it, every jot and tittle, is still binding today. And the man know as Jesus would not be the Christ for a purpose of the Christ's in coming to earth was to do away with the OT law, Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14.

--in Paul's Galatian epistle, there were Christians in Galatian that allowed themselves to be lead astray by Judaizing teachers by leaving the NT gospel going back to the OT and Paul condemned them for such. Paul's point to them is why leave a system in the NT of justification by grace and go back to a law that required justification by strict, perfect law keeping. They could not keep that OT law perfectly and just one sin would bring the curse of the law upon them, Galatians 3:10-13. Since that OT law required strict, perfect adherence and since they could not keep it perfectly is why Paul would say " But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.." Galatians 3:11. Going back to the OT law means they must keep the "WHOLE" law, Galatians 5:3, perfectly. Jews under the OT law could not pick and choose between laws they liked to keep while ignoring other laws but had to keep the WHOLE law perfectly to be justified before God.

A Christian then would follow the "moral laws" found within the NT. Adultery, both the physical and spiritual aspects, are sinful because Christ says they are.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Forgive me, but I'm not sure that I understand the debate here? On one hand, the technicality of whether or not the Law is in force or not after Jesus is totally moot. Who wouldn't want to be sure to behave and not violate any of the 10 Commandments after having been born again, born of a desire to please the Lord?

Because Christ took ALL the OT law out of the way including the 10 commandments. By doing such we can be 'married' to Christ NT without committing spiritual adultery against in keeping to laws at the same time Romans 7:1-4. Christ nowhere requires NT Christians to keep the 10 commandments, nowhere did Christ require Christians to remember the Sabbath Day.

But then one may ask, 'if Christ took the whole OT law including 10 commandments out of the way making that law inactive, non-effective does that mean one can commit adultery, lie, steal etc?'
Of course not because Christ's NT condemns such things.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The law of Christ is the law that governs the New Covenant.

They are embodied in His Commandments and Doctrine and Gospel.

His Gospel, His Commandments and His doctrine are The Truth.

Every word that proceeds out of His mouth is the Truth.

You can find these throughout the New Testament, in which His Apostles taught.

• “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Here are a few:


“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:21-22



“You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:27-30


“Furthermore it has been said, Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. Matthew 5:31-32


“You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Matthew 5:43-45



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9





JLB

Yes, the NT regulates the religion of Christianity NOT the OT. Therefore men cannot go back to the OT law to look for justification for the things they do. In doing so would be comitting apsitiual adultery Romans 7:1-4.

If one can go back to the OT to justify "x", then look at the can of worms they have opened up. If one can go back to the OT to justify "x" then one can equally, rightly go back to the OT to justify slavery (as they did before the Civil war) or justify polgamy (as Mormons do).

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

BTW,,,Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 does not support your view.

Yes they do.

Eph 2:15 " Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; "

Col 2:14 " Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; "

And neither verse makes a distinction between ceremonial laws and moral laws but refers to the entire OT as 'law of commandments" and "ordinances".

 

[for_his_glory]

The OT or law of Moses regulated the religion of Judaism while the NT gospel regulates Christianity. Therefore the Christian has to look to the NT as his guide, not the OT.

--As I pointed out in an earlier post, it would be sinful, spiritual type of adultery for a Christian to try and keep both Moses' and Christ's NT at the same time Romans 7:1-4.

--Matthew 5:7-18 if Christ did not take ALL the OT law out of the way, then ALL of it, every jot and tittle, is still binding today. And the man know as Jesus would not be the Christ for a purpose of the Christ's in coming to earth was to do away with the OT law, Ephesians 2:15; Colossians 2:14.

--in Paul's Galatian epistle, there were Christians in Galatian that allowed themselves to be lead astray by Judaizing teachers by leaving the NT gospel going back to the OT and Paul condemned them for such. Paul's point to them is why leave a system in the NT of justification by grace and go back to a law that required justification by strict, perfect law keeping. They could not keep that OT law perfectly and just one sin would bring the curse of the law upon them, Galatians 3:10-13. Since that OT law required strict, perfect adherence and since they could not keep it perfectly is why Paul would say " But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.." Galatians 3:11. Going back to the OT law means they must keep the "WHOLE" law, Galatians 5:3, perfectly. Jews under the OT law could not pick and choose between laws they liked to keep while ignoring other laws but had to keep the WHOLE law perfectly to be justified before God.

A Christian then would follow the "moral laws" found within the NT. Adultery, both the physical and spiritual aspects, are sinful because Christ says they are.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Not all the laws have been fulfilled yet because the second coming of Christ has not happened yet. The only laws that have been fulfilled through Christ are those that were especially made for the Hebrews pertaining to the rituals of the Temple, sacrifices, festivals, Torah, Kohanim and Levites, the King and the Nazarite. The laws that still exist are the moral laws that are a part of the 613 Mosaic/Levitcal laws that all Jews and Gentiles are to follow as I have already listed them. The greatest commandment is love and if we are walking in love then the moral laws should not be a burden nor should we fail in following them.

The guidance of the NT teachings are that of a better covenant by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus who has redeemed us from the curse of the law. No one can be justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith and the law is not of faith, Galatians 3:10-14.

 

[Edward]

Because Christ took ALL the OT law out of the way including the 10 commandments. By doing such we can be 'married' to Christ NT without committing spiritual adultery against in keeping to laws at the same time Romans 7:1-4. Christ nowhere requires NT Christians to keep the 10 commandments, nowhere did Christ require Christians to remember the Sabbath Day.

But then one may ask, 'if Christ took the whole OT law including 10 commandments out of the way making that law inactive, non-effective does that mean one can commit adultery, lie, steal etc?'
Of course not because Christ's NT condemns such things.

As I understand it, the Law is for the unbelievers. Believers are born again and in Christ, Christ in us, so we are not subject to the Law. King David is a good example. He was Spirit filled and yes he did stumble and sin here and there, but He cling to the Lord and turn right back to the Lord and so was forgiven. His Love covers a multitude of sins so as long as we abide in Him and repent and ask forgiveness when we stumble, we are forgiven. Right?

I have not seen any scripture that says the Law was abolished or taken away. The Lord said, I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it.

 

[Edward]

Interesting thought.
Who can know?
We'll have to wait to find out.
And the 1,000 years off sounds good.
BUT
I doubt there will be time up there.

Yeah but I have the confidence that a hard days work for the Lord will be like the best days work for us on earth.

 

[GodsGrace]

We really can not convince anyone of anything, but only present that of what we know and understand in hopes they too will eventually understand by taking what we give and go study it for themselves asking the Holy Spirit teach them.

Amen to that.
When I'm presented with a new idea,,,I DO study it on my own.
It's the only way....

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes they do.

Eph 2:15 " Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; "

Col 2:14 " Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; "

And neither verse makes a distinction between ceremonial laws and moral laws but refers to the entire OT as 'law of commandments" and "ordinances".

I don't believe so.

Ephesians 2:15
Ephesians 2:14 is speaking about how Jesus has made the Jews and the Gentiles into one family.
Jesus broke down the barrier of the dividing wall...He broke down the wall that separated the Jews and the Gentiles.

2:15 speaks of how Jesus ended the dividing line between the "favored" Jews and the Gentiles, because He annulled the whole system of Jewish LAWS, ordinances and the law of commandments CONTAINED IN THE ORDINANCES,
this does not refer to the 10 commandments.

Colossians 2:14

See verse 16 which states that festivals and food were only temporary rules till Christ came....the Moral Law is NOT temporary and is still in force today.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yeah but I have the confidence that a hard days work for the Lord will be like the best days work for us on earth.

Off topic, but I see the New Jerusalem being like that of the garden of Eden the way God intended it to be in the beginning and all of us taking care of it as we will have no needs of anything only eating the fruit of it. Back to topic.

 

[JLB]

Yes, the NT regulates the religion of Christianity NOT the OT. Therefore men cannot go back to the OT law to look for justification for the things they do. In doing so would be comitting apsitiual adultery Romans 7:1-4.

Whether the NT or the OT it’s always been justification by faith.

This is what is revealed in the writings of the New Testament.


Maybe we could shift the conversation to discuss what faith is, and how faith works to produce the intended divine result.

Only the “work” or action of obedience justifies.

IOW People that obey God, are in right standing (righteous) with Him.

This was true in the garden and it’s is true today.


JLB