Wearing a crucifix: yes or no?

[pHghost]

From Matt Henry;


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif][SIZE=-2][FONT=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=+1]2. Does this commandment forbid the making of images for a religious use? Yes: Cursed be the man that maketh any graven image, Deut. 27:15. Does it forbid the making an image of what is in heaven above? Yes: Lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, shouldst be driven to worship them, Deut. 4:19. Or on earth, beneath? Yes: As they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox, Ps. 106:20. Or in the waters under the earth? Yes: As they made the likeness of creeping things, Rom. 1:23.[/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

http://www.shortercatechism.com/resources/henry/wsc_he_049.html

The pitfalls of taking things like this too literally are many -- woodlandapple has a great example of this, and how this strict interpretation is applied selectively.

Moreover, even the Bible itself does not interpret the commandment so literally, and it does interpret it:

Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread, and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them.
(Exodus 26:1)

And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.
(Exodus 25:22)

Both of these come AFTER the introduction of the rule in Exodus 20:4-6, so they are aware of the rule that was set. Yet, in the first instance, God commands the creation of such images, and in the second one even associates His own presence with them. So, if you take it all in a truly Biblical context, without nitpicking, I feel you are led to understand that even then and there -- and they would know best, since the rule was given to them directly -- the interpretation was far from being literal. Clearly, Scripture can and does distinguish between an idol and a piece of art.

And, Scripture interprets itself on this matter even further:

And the Lord spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. [...] Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth.
(Deuteronomy 4:12 and 15-18)

The reason that people were not supposed to make the image of God was because God was still at that time unseen -- even unseeable, and therefore was to stay undepicted -- and undepictable.

But an important event happened roughly 2000 years ago, which changed all of this -- the Incarnation.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John 1:14)

By becoming man, God took on all the properties of mankind, becoming like us in all things. Amongst the properties common to humans is to have form and to be depictable. To say otherwise is to doubt the Incarnation and the fact that Jesus Christ was not only truly God, but also truly human, with all that comes with it. If we had photography back then, would it be a sin to take a photograph of Jesus, in light of the second commandment? And all this applies to the cross as well.

One of the Church Fathers, John of Damascus, explains in his apology against iconoclasm:

In times past, God, without body and form, could in no way be represented. But now, since God has appeared in flesh and lived among men, I can depict that which is visible of God. I do not venerate the matter, but I venerate the Creator of matter, who became matter for me, who condescended to live in matter, and who, through matter accomplished my salvation; and I do not cease to respect the matter through which my salvation is accomplished.

In short, this is one of the things where I strongly disagree with Calvin, who, despite raising a lot of great points, also got swayed by specific sentiments of that time, which led him to unsound and potentially even dangerous interpretations of Scripture.

 

[Hitch]

my friend (non christian) gabe me a beaded cross and a poem, I carry both in my wallet.

The poem says:
I carry a cross in my pocket
A simple reminder to me,
Of the fact that I am Christian
No matter where I may be.

This little cross is not magic
Noris it a lucky charm,
It isnt meant to protect me
From every physical harm.

Its not for identification
For all the world to see,
Its simply an understanding
Between the saviour and me.

When I put my hand in my pocket
To bring out a coin or a key,
The cross is there to remind me
Of the price He paid for me.

It reminds me to be thankful
For my blessing day by day,
and to strive to serve him better
In all that I do or say.

Its also a daily reminder
Of the peace andcomfort I share,
With all who know my master
And give themselves to His care.

So, I carry a cross in my pocket
Reminding no one but me,
That Jesus Christ is the lord of my life
If only Id let him be.


To those who take a very literal and uncompromising view of the second commandment, Im wondering how you can even see this forum, as Jesus himself comands that if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out..... (NIV Mk.9:47)

it must be horrible to walk around with no hands, no feet and drowning with a millstone around your neck........ (unless of course you havnt sinned.......)

Well if you're idiotic enough to take every passage in a strict literal fashion you deserve what ever trouble it brings

Perhaps you should condemn the entire early church for using the Ichthys?

Also condem communion, for if anything is a symbol of christ its the bread and wine of the Lords supper. funny..... I thought Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to break it.

Well that is the equal of your nonsense above

A cross is not, in my opinion, am idol or a representation of the trinity.

I suggest a review of the OP

It is a reminder of our commitment and Gods Grace.

 

[Hitch]

Clearly the context is that of worship--graven images as idols and gods to worship. Context is everything:

Deu 27:15 'Cursed is the one who makes a carved or molded image, an abomination to the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and sets it up in secret.' "And all the people shall answer and say, 'Amen!'

So, no, it does not at all speak to wearing a cross or crucifix, unless one worships that cross or crucifix.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 

[woodlandapple]

Well if you're idiotic enough to take every passage in a strict literal fashion you deserve what ever trouble it brings

........

 

[Hitch]

........

Come on wood if you're going to dish it out....it must be horrible to walk around with no hands, no feet and drowning with a millstone around your neck........ (unless of course you havnt sinned.......)

 

[Free]

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Again, context:

Ex 20:1-5, 1 And God spoke all these words, saying: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

The context is clearly that of making false gods to worship.

 

[pHghost]

Come on wood if you're going to dish it out...

While you are the one who only seems to pick on those he can superficially discredit and chooses to ignore the rest. I would love to hear your thoughts on the Biblical evidence about the second commandment and its interpretation I posted about in response to your claims.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

As stated by Free: context. And not only within the chapter itself, but elsewhere in the Bible as well. Please read my previous post for references -- if you had read my post, you wouldn't be even trying to use this verse to illustrate your point, understanding the full Biblical context of it.

 

[Hitch]

While you are the one who only seems to pick on those he can superficially discredit and chooses to ignore the rest. I would love to hear your thoughts on the Biblical evidence about the second commandment and its interpretation I posted about in response to your claims.

Its been pointed out to me that God gave direct instructions in this case, 'make this this way' . No man nor counsel of men was consulted and no individual or group decided ,of its own volition to make the images. Im sure you and I will agree ,that a contradiction cannot exist .

As stated by Free: context. And not only within the chapter itself, but elsewhere in the Bible as well. Please read my previous post for references -- if you had read my post, you wouldn't be even trying to use this verse to illustrate your point, understanding the full Biblical context of it

The text is plain enough and Ive already posted references, from Calvin to Henry to Boettner , that speak to most of the standard objections.

 

[Hitch]

Again, context:

Ex 20:1-5, 1 And God spoke all these words, saying: 2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

The context is clearly that of making false gods to worship.

Tell me Free, was it lawful for an Isrealite to make and/or own such an image?

 

[handy]

Dora, our pastor rarely wears a stole. Are you saying your pastor wears an upside down cross on it? Why?

As I understand it, when the reformation was starting out and Martin Luther was released, he found people were in mobs, throwing everything from paintings to crosses to Bibles into fires. He was shocked and horrified by some of the things they were burning. Though I'm a Lutheran, I don't follow Luther. I follow Christ. But he did have a solid stance, IMO. People can be overzealous in their vigil against things such as this.

I'll have to ask him specifically, but I believe that it's because the cross of Peter is traditionally a cross associated with pastors, and the humility they should serve the flock with. The cross of Peter is symbolic of Peter's death of being crucified upside down because he was too humble to be crucified as the Lord was. I know that pretty much all of the Lutheran pastor's I've seen lead services in full vestments and part of the full vestment is the stole with the cross of Peter on it. This is true of both ELCA and LCMS pastors. I'm always a bit surprised when I hear from you that it's not necessarily all Lutheran churches who do these things.

For years I was in Calvinistic circles and I believe that they take the whole "image" thing way out of context. The context regarding image is anything that is made into a god to be worshiped.

Crosses and crucifixes are symbols of our faith. Just as Jews have tangible symbols of their faith, such as the mezuzah and menorahs, Christians also have symbols. There is no sin in having religious symbols...just graven images that are worshiped.

 

[Free]

Tell me Free, was it lawful for an Isrealite to make and/or own such an image?

For worship of that image, no, as has been stated several times.

 

[Hitch]

For worship of that image, no, as has been stated several times.

Are you refusing to answer the question asked?

Tell me Free, was it lawful for an Isrealite to make and/or own such an image?

 

[Former Christian]

Should one wear a crucifix?

In the tabernacle worship, God gave the Jews all sorts of symbols. The Jews worshiped in their midst. Did they worship the symbols? Obviously not or their tent of meeting would have been burned to the ground. It was taken away from them on more than one occasion wherein they abused the privilege.

The early believers used the sign of the fish, as I understand it, as a sign during persecution. Were they wrong?

There are a lot of symbols that have arisen during the last two millennia that are considered Christian symbols. Some relevant, some not so relevant. The crucifix is common to east and west for at least a millennia and a half.

Do some Christians worship symbols? Of course they do. Does that mean that the symbol is wrong or the person worshipping the symbol?

The crucifix has a lot of meaning behind it. Not just the crucifixion of Christ. It refers to one's baptism, to one’s faith in the crucifixion of Christ for our sins, the Christian faith as a whole in some communities. The cross of Christ has a lot of meaning to most Christians who know its significance, whether with or without a corpus.

I'm a former Christian. Yet even I have a Crucifix in a prominent place in my home as a reminder of what Christ has done. Something I took away with me from my time among the Catholics and Orthodox. To me, another meaning of the crucifix is the expression of the love of God and Jesus Christ where the rubber meets the road. I could just as easy display a bible verse in a prominent place. But the crucifix works just as well in my opinion. And as a picture it’s worth a thousand written verses. Many of which come to mind when I see a Crucifix. As a former Christian I have no problem with that. I know who I worship. As a non-Christian, I wouldn’t have one in my home. Why should I if it has no meaning for me?

I don't like to wear jewelery of any sort. So I don't wear a crucifix. I don't like the feel of cold next to my body. When I was in the army, I had cloth mittens for my dog tags. Got a lotta laughs. No doctor has ever been able to diagnose a physical reason for my aversion. There's probably a reason, physical or psychological. But I don't know what it is.

There are some Christians who think the Crucifix and other such symbols are automatically objects of worship and thus say that no Christian should use them or have any thing to do with them. They are judging themselves in regard to the symbol. And have decided to judge others with the same judgment they judge themselves.

There is one group of people who should never wear a crucifix. Those who don’t understand or believe in its significance. That’s just disrespect. Like Madonna who’s into Cabbala, a Jewish form. Why should she even want to wear a crucifix? She’s not a Christian. The only reason is because it’s become popular for Pop Artists to do so.

Catholics have crucifixes everywhere. To most Catholics, it’s a sign of their Catholic faith. Should non-Catholics not have anything to do with the crucifix on that ground? Only if the Catholics themselves object. I’ve haven’t yet met a Catholic, Priest or laity, who thought it wrong for a Christian, Protestant or otherwise, to wear a crucifix. So long as it has meaning for them related to Christ. If there’s no meaning, there’s no reason.

I always like to bring up the girlfriend’s photograph, whenever this issue comes up. Do those who have such photos worship them? Or do they have them as reminders of someone absent and loved, the one behind the photograph? Do they take it out when the girlfriend is present, or do they put it away not needing it? So also the proper use of the crucifix or any Christian symbol.

Some of us aren’t so bright. We need reminders. We need the bible as a reminder of what God has written. We need other symbols to remind us of what we have a hard time remembering on our own. If your photo is a hindrance to your remembrance, burn it. But don’t judge us poor mentally bereft ones because of our need.

FC

 

[Free]

Are you refusing to answer the question asked?

Tell me Free, was it lawful for an Isrealite to make and/or own such an image?

But I did answer it. The Bible is silent on images that are not worshiped.

 

[pHghost]

Im sure you and I will agree ,that a contradiction cannot exist .

Exactly because a contradiction cannot exist you need to reexamine the second commandment. Would God contradict himself? I don't think so. So it brings up the question of: what exactly was meant by the second commandment, when looked at in the context it sits in?

The text is plain enough and Ive already posted references, from Calvin to Henry to Boettner , that speak to most of the standard objections.

Yes, these guys were masters at looking at things plainly, and so missing out on the context a lot. Do you mean to say that you trust the interpretation made by Calvin, Henry and Boettner more than you trust the interpretation by the Bible itself? I think that is quite dangerous and could easily lead you to many a valley of heresy.


While all these men were well learned theologians, they were also men of error, as are we, and thus the reason to always look to the Bible, not to the words of others.

 

[Hitch]

Exactly because a contradiction cannot exist you need to reexamine the second commandment. Would God contradict himself? I don't think so. So it brings up the question of: what exactly was meant by the second commandment, when looked at in the context it sits in?

It cant be more clear, you are not to make or possess graven images,

Yes, these guys were masters at looking at things plainly, and so missing out on the context a lot. Do you mean to say that you trust the interpretation made by Calvin, Henry and Boettner more than you trust the interpretation by the Bible itself? I think that is quite dangerous and could easily lead you to many a valley of heresy.

LOL when I equate you with the bible I'll throw in with the Taliban .

While all these men were well learned theologians, they were also men of error, as are we, and thus the reason to always look to the Bible,

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

not to the words of others.

Exactly.

 

[for_his_glory]

Should we not know a person by their fruits instead of a material outward appearance that could show a misguided refinement of that person. It's like the Bible, it's a material object that many put on a shelf to only dust off when they want to appear to be Holy in front of others, but lack that which makes them holy before God.

I demonstrated that once when I use to do prison ministry. I was teaching on the emphases of the material compared to that of the Spiritual. I took my Bible and threw it on the floor and stood on it, while most of the men understood there were only two who stood up and yelled that I could not do that, but then after I explained that the emphases God wants from us is not a book of writings or teachings, but that of our own spirit that God wants.

Same with what we wear that is material, but only that of an outward appearance that has nothing to do with the inward works of the Lord. Some people put more emphasis on the symbol than that of the very Spirit of God.

 

[Hitch]

But I did answer it. The Bible is silent on images that are not worshiped.

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

LOL That silence is so loud its one tenth of all Scripture God personally wrote.

And no you did not answer the question asked, you answer an altered version you wanted to manipulate. An action clearly demonstrating that you are well aware of the weakness of your argument. Come on free cite the 2nd Commandment and explain why and how an Isrealite was permitted to make and possess these things. If you are correct it should fall into place easily.

 

[Free]

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

LOL That silence is so loud its one tenth of all Scripture God personally wrote.

And no you did not answer the question asked, you answer an altered version you wanted to manipulate. An action clearly demonstrating that you are well aware of the weakness of your argument. Come on free cite the 2nd Commandment and explain why and how an Isrealite was permitted to make and possess these things. If you are correct it should fall into place easily.

What is it that you don't understand about context, Hitch? Please go back and read the post where I posted Ex 20:1-5 and show how I altered it. I have clearly answered it and shown why your understanding is in error.

 

[Hitch]

Hey kids , Free said, Uncle Ghost and I are off to shoot 9 holes ,we'll be back in a few hours.
OK Dad.

Now number one ;Do not burn the house down.

Number two; Do not take off in Uncle Ghost's car. I dont want you wandering around the mall all day.

Right Dad.

OK see ya in a while.

Five hours later Free and Ghost enter the house;

Where is Uncle Ghost's car?

Ahhh its at the shop.

What? Why is it at the shop?

It went into the water.


OK How did go into the water?

I parked it near the boat ramp and forgot to set the brake.

So you took Uncle Ghost's car to the river, forgot the parking brake , it rolled into the river and now its

not here but in the shop ?

Yes sir, Im sorry sir.

Well as long as you didnt go to the mall..