A
agua.
Guest
Yeah I don't think so but maybe I'm wrong. It would surprise me if Yahweh hadn't mentioned it to Abraham or Job somewhere.
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Bible Study WELCOME TO A DEEP LOOK AT GENESIS
- Thread starter Chopper
- Start date
Yeah I don't think so but maybe I'm wrong. It would surprise me if Yahweh hadn't mentioned it to Abraham or Job somewhere.
A
agua.
Guest
A bit of a side track but I think this is interesting even though I grabbed it from Wiki citing Midrash :D ( oh boy what a mix )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_and_the_Idol_Shop
According to Genesis Rabbah 38.13 R. Hiyya, a first generation Jewish sage, tells the following story:
Abraham cast into the fire
Terah was an idol manufacturer who once went away and left Abraham in charge of the store. A man walked in and wished to buy an idol. Abraham asked him how old he was and the man responded “fifty years old.” Abraham then said, “You are fifty years old and would worship a day old statue!” At this point the man left ashamed.
Later, a woman walked in to the store and wanted to make an offering to the idols. So Abraham took a stick, smashed the idols and placed the stick in the hand of the largest idol. When Terah returned he asked Abraham what happened to all the idols. Abraham told him that a woman came in to make an offering to the idols. Then the idols argued about which one should eat the offering first. Then the largest idol took the stick and smashed the other idols.
Terah responded by saying that they are only statues and have no knowledge. Whereupon Abraham responded by saying that you deny their knowledge, yet you worship them! At which point Terah took Abraham to Nimrod.
Nimrod proclaims to Abraham that we should worship fire. Abraham responds that water puts out fire. So Nimrod declares they worship water. Abraham responds that clouds hold water. So Nimrod declares they worship clouds. Abraham responds that wind pushes clouds. So Nimrod declares they worship wind. Abraham responds that people withstand wind.
Nimrod becomes angry with Abraham and declares that Abraham shall be cast into the fire, and if Abraham is correct that there is a real God, that God will save him. Then Abraham is cast into the fire and is saved by God.
Abraham’s brother Haran sees what happened and says that he believes in the God of Abraham, is thrown into the fire, and is not saved by God. Hence the verse in Genesis 11:28 “And Haran died in the presence of his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.” [7] The Midrash is not the only mention of this story, in fact the Quran discusses the story in great depth.[8]
This Midrash is part of the long history of Abraham’s fight against idolatry and polytheism.[9]
Later in Genesis 15.7 this event is referenced when God appears to Abraham and says “I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees.” [9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_and_the_Idol_Shop
According to Genesis Rabbah 38.13 R. Hiyya, a first generation Jewish sage, tells the following story:
Abraham cast into the fire
Terah was an idol manufacturer who once went away and left Abraham in charge of the store. A man walked in and wished to buy an idol. Abraham asked him how old he was and the man responded “fifty years old.” Abraham then said, “You are fifty years old and would worship a day old statue!” At this point the man left ashamed.
Later, a woman walked in to the store and wanted to make an offering to the idols. So Abraham took a stick, smashed the idols and placed the stick in the hand of the largest idol. When Terah returned he asked Abraham what happened to all the idols. Abraham told him that a woman came in to make an offering to the idols. Then the idols argued about which one should eat the offering first. Then the largest idol took the stick and smashed the other idols.
Terah responded by saying that they are only statues and have no knowledge. Whereupon Abraham responded by saying that you deny their knowledge, yet you worship them! At which point Terah took Abraham to Nimrod.
Nimrod proclaims to Abraham that we should worship fire. Abraham responds that water puts out fire. So Nimrod declares they worship water. Abraham responds that clouds hold water. So Nimrod declares they worship clouds. Abraham responds that wind pushes clouds. So Nimrod declares they worship wind. Abraham responds that people withstand wind.
Nimrod becomes angry with Abraham and declares that Abraham shall be cast into the fire, and if Abraham is correct that there is a real God, that God will save him. Then Abraham is cast into the fire and is saved by God.
Abraham’s brother Haran sees what happened and says that he believes in the God of Abraham, is thrown into the fire, and is not saved by God. Hence the verse in Genesis 11:28 “And Haran died in the presence of his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.” [7] The Midrash is not the only mention of this story, in fact the Quran discusses the story in great depth.[8]
This Midrash is part of the long history of Abraham’s fight against idolatry and polytheism.[9]
Later in Genesis 15.7 this event is referenced when God appears to Abraham and says “I am the Lord that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees.” [9]
A
agua.
Guest
:D
TOG
Member
then it must be true
If it's in the Koran, then it is at least peaceful, loving and just... Or maybe not... It's off topic anyway...
The TOG
A
agua.
Guest
:biggrin
Agua is was you who was trying to explain strawman to me right?guess we should get back to topic...
. . . . ......... .....
And you still dun get it. Straw man is only one logical ..... ah forget it :biggrin
Last edited by a moderator:
A
agua.
Guest
:biggrin
. . . . ......... .....
And you still dun get it. Straw man is only one logical ..... ah forget it :biggrin
Oi how'd you get up there.
Chopper
Member
Day 74 Sunday 6/29/14 Genesis 31:36-55 Peace At Last.
Well now it's Jacob's turn to blast Laban, and he does with both barrels. Actually, IMO both men are trying to save face because they both are guilty of something, certainly Laban more than Jacob. Laban was guilty of what Jacob pointed out and Jacob was guilty of what Laban pointed out except that Jacob was under orders from the Almighty to leave and go home.
In V.43 Laban realizes that he is really the one who bears the position of being most wrong, and goes into a "save face" mode and makes a ridiculous claim of ownership of all that Jacob had acquired. He then suggests making a treaty between them.
This treaty that Laban suggested that they make, was really a safety measure for Laban because he knew that God had blessed Jacob and would continue to bless him in the future. Therefore, once Jacob had settled down in his home land, he might mass up an army and come back and put some hurt on old Laban for deceiving Jacob and taken advantage of him those twenty years.
We close this Chapter with Jacob and Laban creating a "heap" of stones, and Jacob taking a large stone, putting it on end as a "pillar". This would be a perpetual witness between both parties to pursue peace and not hostility towards each other.
Well now it's Jacob's turn to blast Laban, and he does with both barrels. Actually, IMO both men are trying to save face because they both are guilty of something, certainly Laban more than Jacob. Laban was guilty of what Jacob pointed out and Jacob was guilty of what Laban pointed out except that Jacob was under orders from the Almighty to leave and go home.
In V.43 Laban realizes that he is really the one who bears the position of being most wrong, and goes into a "save face" mode and makes a ridiculous claim of ownership of all that Jacob had acquired. He then suggests making a treaty between them.
This treaty that Laban suggested that they make, was really a safety measure for Laban because he knew that God had blessed Jacob and would continue to bless him in the future. Therefore, once Jacob had settled down in his home land, he might mass up an army and come back and put some hurt on old Laban for deceiving Jacob and taken advantage of him those twenty years.
We close this Chapter with Jacob and Laban creating a "heap" of stones, and Jacob taking a large stone, putting it on end as a "pillar". This would be a perpetual witness between both parties to pursue peace and not hostility towards each other.
Deborah13
Member
Gen 31:41 `This is to me twenty years in thy house: I have served thee fourteen years for thy two daughters, and six years for thy flock; and thou changest my hire ten times;
Jacob was gathering his flock for six years. The seventh year God called him to go home to the land of his father.
I wonder is this a type that can be applied to prophecy?
Jacob was gathering his flock for six years. The seventh year God called him to go home to the land of his father.
I wonder is this a type that can be applied to prophecy?
hmmm, good question! It does seem to have a spiritual suggestion, doesn't it?
TOG
Member
Gen 32:1 And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
Gen 32:2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.
Gen 32:3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.
Gen 32:4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:
Gen 32:5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.
Gen 32:6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
Gen 32:7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;
Gen 32:8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.
Gen 32:2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he called the name of that place Mahanaim.
Gen 32:3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.
Gen 32:4 And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now:
Gen 32:5 And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.
Gen 32:6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him.
Gen 32:7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands;
Gen 32:8 And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.
Chopper
Member
Day 75 Monday 6/30/14 Genesis 32:1-8 One More Hurdle.
These eight verses have a lot of information in them. First is, according to Jewish writers, 60,000 angels sent from God, to protect Jacob and his company. Jacob calls them "God's Camp" and called the name of the place "Mananaim" which means "two camps". Now, this name has Jewish writers coming up with all kinds of idea's. First is protection. Psalm 91:11 says "For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways." The thought is that the two camps of angels would go in front of Jacob and behind to protect him against Esau in front and Laban behind. Another thought was that the angels simply would surround Jacob and his people or company.
Jacob sends his messengers on ahead of him to Esau asking for "favor in his sight." The messengers return with the news that Esau is coming to meet him with 400 men. It seems strange to me that the messengers share no information as to what Esau had in mind. I guess that's what's baffling about Scripture at times, it doesn't give us "the rest of the story." At any rate, instead of recognizing that he had many more angels than Esau had men, he shakes in his boots"
Jacob now divides his company into two camps, thinking that if Esau attacks the first camp, the other can escape....again, when we let our imagination take charge of our thinking, we think the worst. I have come to the realization that no matter how long we have been saved, our imagination is not. This is so true, I have been saved 40 years come this November. 40 years!! And my imagination is still negative when it faces a negative situation. Is that the case with you guys?
Note: The Jewish writers that I refer to are Aben Ezra, and Bereshit Rabba.
These eight verses have a lot of information in them. First is, according to Jewish writers, 60,000 angels sent from God, to protect Jacob and his company. Jacob calls them "God's Camp" and called the name of the place "Mananaim" which means "two camps". Now, this name has Jewish writers coming up with all kinds of idea's. First is protection. Psalm 91:11 says "For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways." The thought is that the two camps of angels would go in front of Jacob and behind to protect him against Esau in front and Laban behind. Another thought was that the angels simply would surround Jacob and his people or company.
Jacob sends his messengers on ahead of him to Esau asking for "favor in his sight." The messengers return with the news that Esau is coming to meet him with 400 men. It seems strange to me that the messengers share no information as to what Esau had in mind. I guess that's what's baffling about Scripture at times, it doesn't give us "the rest of the story." At any rate, instead of recognizing that he had many more angels than Esau had men, he shakes in his boots"
Jacob now divides his company into two camps, thinking that if Esau attacks the first camp, the other can escape....again, when we let our imagination take charge of our thinking, we think the worst. I have come to the realization that no matter how long we have been saved, our imagination is not. This is so true, I have been saved 40 years come this November. 40 years!! And my imagination is still negative when it faces a negative situation. Is that the case with you guys?
Note: The Jewish writers that I refer to are Aben Ezra, and Bereshit Rabba.
A
agua.
Guest
I don't think men can possibly see things clearly without Yahweh's guidance so any account without His help is only looking at the surface. imo
Day 75 Monday 6/30/14 Genesis 32:1-8 One More Hurdle.
These eight verses have a lot of information in them. First is, according to Jewish writers, 60,000 angels sent from God, to protect Jacob and his company. Jacob calls them "God's Camp" and called the name of the place "Mananaim" which means "two camps". Now, this name has Jewish writers coming up with all kinds of idea's. First is protection. Psalm 91:11 says "For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways." The thought is that the two camps of angels would go in front of Jacob and behind to protect him against Esau in front and Laban behind. Another thought was that the angels simply would surround Jacob and his people or company.
Jacob sends his messengers on ahead of him to Esau asking for "favor in his sight." The messengers return with the news that Esau is coming to meet him with 400 men. It seems strange to me that the messengers share no information as to what Esau had in mind. I guess that's what's baffling about Scripture at times, it doesn't give us "the rest of the story." At any rate, instead of recognizing that he had many more angels than Esau had men, he shakes in his boots"
Jacob now divides his company into two camps, thinking that if Esau attacks the first camp, the other can escape....again, when we let our imagination take charge of our thinking, we think the worst. I have come to the realization that no matter how long we have been saved, our imagination is not. This is so true, I have been saved 40 years come this November. 40 years!! And my imagination is still negative when it faces a negative situation. Is that the case with you guys?
Note: The Jewish writers that I refer to are Aben Ezra, and Bereshit Rabba.
Cool Chop it looks like Jacob was def afraid of Esau and maybe he wasn't privy to Esau's good intentions to test his faith a bit. You know like if we know things it really doesn't take faith to march on into dodgy positions etc. I still get some negative thoughts when my imagination takes over for sure because I tend to analyse most things ; we get better at trusting Yahweh day by day I think.
Deborah13
Member
Day 75 Monday 6/30/14 Genesis 32:1-8 One More Hurdle.
These eight verses have a lot of information in them. First is, according to Jewish writers, 60,000 angels sent from God, to protect Jacob and his company. Jacob calls them "God's Camp" and called the name of the place "Mananaim" which means "two camps". Now, this name has Jewish writers coming up with all kinds of idea's. First is protection. Psalm 91:11 says "For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways." The thought is that the two camps of angels would go in front of Jacob and behind to protect him against Esau in front and Laban behind. Another thought was that the angels simply would surround Jacob and his people or company.
Jacob sends his messengers on ahead of him to Esau asking for "favor in his sight." The messengers return with the news that Esau is coming to meet him with 400 men. It seems strange to me that the messengers share no information as to what Esau had in mind. I guess that's what's baffling about Scripture at times, it doesn't give us "the rest of the story." At any rate, instead of recognizing that he had many more angels than Esau had men, he shakes in his boots"
Jacob now divides his company into two camps, thinking that if Esau attacks the first camp, the other can escape....again, when we let our imagination take charge of our thinking, we think the worst. I have come to the realization that no matter how long we have been saved, our imagination is not. This is so true, I have been saved 40 years come this November. 40 years!! And my imagination is still negative when it faces a negative situation. Is that the case with you guys?
Note: The Jewish writers that I refer to are Aben Ezra, and Bereshit Rabba.
Don't feel bad Chopper. I have been made aware of the fact that someone I haven't seen in 26 yrs. is coming back here on a trip. The Lord lead me to forgive and pray for this person. But I can tell you that if that person were to show up at my door old negative memories would flood my mind and I would be filled with fear. The Lord says to put on the full armor of God to withstand. I believe we all probably have points of weakness when we have to really fight hard to withstand. Praise God, He gave us the weapons to do that.
I see Jacob was brave and faced what he thought could have turned out badly for him but he wasn't irrational either as he split into two camps like the host was two camps.
Do battle but do it wisely.