Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[brother Paul]

February 28 2016 Matthew 18:23 - 35 A Wicked Example Of Forgiveness.

Matthew 18:23 "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
18:24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
18:25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
18:26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.'
18:27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
18:28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.'
18:29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.'
18:30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.
18:31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place.
18:32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
18:33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?'
18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt.
18:35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

Wow, what an example!! Notice please Verse 35. Jesus says that we must forgive from our hearts. Whenever I think of forgiveness, especially in extremely trying circumstances, it seems impossible to forgive. Rape, child molestation, cases of terrible abuse or other extreme acts of violence are examples of circumstances that really try our resolve to forgive a monster called a human.

Whenever I've been asked "how can I forgive and forget?" My answer has been, we have to forgive and forget how God does it. He is our Example....
Isaiah 43:25 "I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Notice that God says He will cancel our sins "for My own sake". That's the secret to forgiving someone who has hurt us. If we hold that offense in our thoughts, it will only eat at us like a cancer. So, for our own sake and spiritual health, we must let it go.

You say, "How in the world can I forget what this person did"?....
Psalm 103:12 "as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us." In these two verses of Scripture we have two ideas. One, God says that He will not remember our sins. This means, when God thinks of me, He will not drag up the sins that He has forgiven me of and judge me. Even if I commit the same sin, with God, it's the first time....Two, our sins, God says, He puts them as far as the East is from the West. This is just saying that they are so far away from Him that they are simply gone!

So, when I forgive someone who has sinned against me, I must do what God does. When I think of that person, I must not think of his sin against me. If someone steals from me, he is a thief. He comes and asks forgiveness, I grant him forgiveness and the next time I see him or think of him, I can't recall him being a thief. That's forgive and forget.

I would disagree here Chop...I do believe we must forgive those who repent but we are not required to forget. Only God can do that. Remembering the act and not having an emotional judgment attached is not the same...

 

[Chopper]

I would disagree here Chop...I do believe we must forgive those who repent but we are not required to forget. Only God can do that. Remembering the act and not having an emotional judgment attached is not the same...

Well Paul, you certainly are welcome to believe what's in your heart. There are lesser degrees of forgetting. The high spiritual standard of forgetting is from God's Own example. It is my opinion that we should always strive for the highest.

 

[reba]

Well chopper i will not forget the child molester..

 

[brother Paul]

Well Paul, you certainly are welcome to believe what's in your heart. There are lesser degrees of forgetting. The high spiritual standard of forgetting is from God's Own example. It is my opinion that we should always strive for the highest.

Definitely the goal to strive for....God's ways are higher than ours and I think we cannot entirely forget but we can certainly treat it appropriately as something that has changed and no longer hold any grudge. Secondly I would practice not bringing it up ever again...I know from experience that when someone does not allow us to forget by always reminding us of our ancient or past transgressions how disturbing that can be for some (for me it just increases my humility)...

 

[GodsGrace]

Well Paul, you certainly are welcome to believe what's in your heart. There are lesser degrees of forgetting. The high spiritual standard of forgetting is from God's Own example. It is my opinion that we should always strive for the highest.

Hi Chopper,
Your standards are very high! It makes me doubt I've really forgiven people because you say I've forgiven them only if I've forgotten the actual act and hurt it caused at the time.
God can certainly forget sin.
Isaiah 43.25
Hebrews 8:12

I thought of the final judgement, but at the Judgment Seat only believer's works are judged for the purpose of rewards.
At the Great White Throne Judgement only non-believers are judged.
So, even here, the believer's sins are not remembered - only the non-repentant person's sins are remembered and judged.

Forgiveness is a matter of the will. I WILL to forgive a person. Since you want to forgive them, after a while the emotion that accompanies the hurt that may have been caused will dissipate; however, if the hurt is deep enough, the act will most probably not be forgotten. But the emotion that was present at the time of the act, will be gone.

What say you?

Wondering

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hey Chopper, do you forgive me for all I've done to you?
I ask that because you never told me you have.

 

[Hospes]

According to my study Bible notes:

10k talents ==> 200k years wages for a laborer
100 denarii ==> 100 days wages for a laborer​

Seems to me, the wicked servant's debt was astronomical and the debt owed him by his fellow servant was only trivial in comparison to the debt he was forgiven. (If someone owed me a 100 days pay, I would not look on it as trivial!)

Thoughts? (I've got my own, but it's always more enjoyable to hear others'.)

 

[Hospes]

Hey Chopper, do you forgive me for all I've done to you?
I ask that because you never told me you have.

It's a trap, Chopper!

(If it's not a trick question, my sincere apologies to Rollo.)

 

[brother Paul]

According to my study Bible notes:

10k talents ==> 200k years wages for a laborer
100 denarii ==> 100 days wages for a laborer​

Seems to me, the wicked servant's debt was astronomical and the debt owed him by his fellow servant was only trivial in comparison to the debt he was forgiven. (If someone owed me a 100 days pay, I would not look on it as trivial!)

Thoughts? (I've got my own, but it's always more enjoyable to hear others'.)

There is a whole precedence here that begins very early...we hear it in the Sermon on the Mount and all through the word. Hear this....whatsoever a man sows that he shall also reap....

Now see how this is speaking of our behavior as followers of Jesus:

Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy...or...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...

Those who sow to the flesh from the flesh will reap corruption but those who SOW TO THE SPIRIT will have eternal life (my paraphrase)

If one plants cucumbers it is because they want cucumbers not corn...if one wants tomatoes do they plant an orange tree? No!

This is like when we want to see the fruit of the Spirit! Many have said unto me "I have been a Christian for years how come I do not see more fruit of the Spirit?"

I always minister to them the difference between a gift and fruit (a gift is given while fruit must be planted and cultivated)....to get a fruit one must sow for it...If YOU want to be loved, love one another (even when it is hard)....IF you want peace sow peace first...if you want grace give grace and in time it will be returned

Sow to the Spirit and grow not weary in well doing and in due time you will reap....

This servant wanted mercy and forgiveness and got it first (that is grace) now having received the treatment he wanted despite not deserving it, the least he could have done was give grace for the little offense against him...so who are we who do not deserve God's grace and mercy supposed to be anything less to everyone else?

Thoughts?

 

[GodsGrace]

According to my study Bible notes:

10k talents ==> 200k years wages for a laborer
100 denarii ==> 100 days wages for a laborer​

Seems to me, the wicked servant's debt was astronomical and the debt owed him by his fellow servant was only trivial in comparison to the debt he was forgiven. (If someone owed me a 100 days pay, I would not look on it as trivial!)

Thoughts? (I've got my own, but it's always more enjoyable to hear others'.)

Hi Hospes

I liken this to Mathew 7
"By your standard of measure, it will be measured to you NASB
In the way we judge, so will we be judged.

In the NASB the title for this chapter is "Forgiveness" not "Judging." But I see it as being the same because as we judge so shall we be judged and as we forgive so shall we be forgiven. If we're harsh - in either category - God will somehow be harsher with us, and if we're kind and forgiving of others, then perhaps He'll be kinder to us, in some way. Maybe just in the sense that He'll be happier to forgive us.

Jesus speaks of the Kingdom of Heaven, which begins on this earth. And He explains how to be a member of the Kingdom in Mathew 5:1-12 Again here in Mathew 18:23 Jesus likens the Kingdom with the King who wanted to settle the accounts. The King (God) is merciful and cancelled the debt of the slave owing 10K talents because the slave begged for patience and forgiveness. Even though the King really wanted the debt to be paid, He had mercy - expecting this same slave to then behave in the same manner. Instead he threw in prison the person who owed him 100Denari. Not acting at all as a member of the Kingdom.

So we, who owe so much to God for the evil we carry with us and for which He forgives us, should be willing to forgive those whose actions are against us - because our sin against God is so much more grievous than anything anyone could do to us.

So, I guess, compared to what God has forgiven in us, any forgiving we do will always be less in comparison.

And, completing my thought on this and going back to my post no. 158, I'd say that the slave owing 100Denari would be forgiven and thus it would not be paid back to his fellow slave; however, I don't see how the fellow slave could FORGET that the 100Denari was owed him, although at this point he won't care that he'll never get it back.

It's still my contention that some things could be forgotten because they might be trivial, but some cannot be forgotten, even though they are forgiven and the emotional hurt that goes along with them is not felt any longer.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

deleted - duplicate

 

[brother Paul]

I think it also depends on who we are dealing with. It is my understanding from Matt. 18:15-27 and other passages in Luke as well as Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 we are to have a different standard for a brother or sister (one claiming to be a follower of Jesus) and a worldly person.

For a believer we should first go to them in private and talk about it, or then bring witnesses, or bring it to the attention of the church and possibly even excommunicate them (not share the Lords Table) and if in the end they refuse to repent treat them as we would any unbelieving gentile or Jew.....the first "If he hear you, forgive" or "if he repents, forgive him" (even 7 x 7) looking for the fruit of repentance....on the other hand, we hold out forgiveness to the latter because "they know not what they do"...

Agree disagree?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hey Chopper, do you forgive me for all I've done to you?

I can't remember you doing anything to him.

10k talents ==> 200k years wages for a laborer

It represents the debt that can never be paid. It represents the debt of righteousness we owe God. We'll never be able to pay enough righteousness in to even put a dent in the debt we owe God. The only way it can be removed is through forgiveness of that debt. Which the king does because he had compassion on the debtor. Jesus is teaching the wonderful gospel in the form of a parable. But he is also giving us a warning about receiving the free gift of forgiveness in the gospel.

100 denarii ==> 100 days wages for a laborer

In regard to the righteousness our fellow human beings owe God, their unrighteousness against us makes up only a small part of the debt of righteousness they've incurred with God. By not forgiving others the same debt of righteousness that we ourselves have had forgiven by the king we are demonstrating our contempt for the king's free gift. This is analogous with the person in Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB who tramples on the blood of Jesus that sanctified him, and with the person in Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB who tastes the heavenly gift but who then falls away. There is no continuing forgiveness for the person who does that. In fact, they can never get the grace of God's forgiveness in the blood of Christ back again. The only thing they can do is pay it back themselves....which they can not do.

A similar parable is in Luke 16:5-8 NASB. In that parable, the shrewd manager who has been given charge of God's riches (think spiritually) forgives the small portion of the debt people owe his master. This represents the debt of righteousness that people have that concerns us. It is only a small part of the whole debt they owe the master. The shrewd manager entrusted with God's riches forgives those parts of people's debts they owe the master and the master commends that manager for doing that. The remaining debt has to be dealt with directly with God himself. But the point is, the manager of God's riches who is commended is the one who gives it away to his master's debtors, thereby building good will between himself and his masters debtors. The master is well pleased with the shrewdness of the manager who does this. His shrewdness in using the masters riches to gain favor for himself (and his master) and to gain future reward is commended, not condemned.

 

[Hospes]

Thanks BP and W for your thoughts. Not that I see anything in it, but it is interesting that you both start your posts by recollecting passages of God's reciprocity to our our doing what is right, then you both go to our reciprocity to God's grace shown us:
God's Reciprocity

...whatsoever a man sows that he shall also reap....Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...Those who sow to the flesh from the flesh will reap corruption but those who SOW TO THE SPIRIT will have eternal life (my paraphrase)

"By your standard of measure, it will be measured to you ...In the way we judge, so will we be judged...as we judge so shall we be judged and as we forgive so shall we forgive. If we're harsh - in either category - God will somehow be harsher with us, and if we're kind and forgiving of others, then perhaps He'll be kinder to us, in some way.

Our Reciprocity

This servant wanted mercy and forgiveness and got it first (that is grace) now having received the treatment he wanted despite not deserving it, the least he could have done was give grace for the little offense against him...

So we, who owe so much to God for the evil we carry with us and for which He forgives us, should be willing to forgive those whose actions are against us - because our sin against God is so much more grievous than anything anyone could do to us.

For the Matthew 18 parable, my mind went straight to thinking of our reciprocity to God's grace toward us. This is probably because that's one of the things that gets me jazzed about the Gospel! In personal terms, this is what I see:

• I have been forgiven much more than I can conceive, much less fully appreciate. (200,000 years of wages is a HUGE sum of money; at $50,000 per year, that is $10,000,000,000.) This has two corollaries: (1) I do not come close to understanding how awfully sinful I am and (2) I do not come close to fully appreciating the magnitude of the grace that cancels the debt I owed God.
• A person may sin against me and it may be a substantial debt they rack up, but in light of the grace that has been shown me, I should forgive the debt. (At $50,000 per year, 100 days would be about $16,000)
• I think the king's angry reaction to the wicked servant's lack of forgiveness is because the servant's actions spoke to the utter lack of appreciation for what the king had done for him. Because of this, I think my unwillingness to forgive is nothing short of showing contempt toward my God. It is me - through my actions - looking at God and saying the suffering of his son and the blood his son shed was really no big deal. (As I think of the lack of forgiveness I have shown others, I sense how the tax collector felt in crying "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!")
• A general principle: to the degree I truly recognize the grace I have been given is the degree I show grace to others. A corollary: rather than working first at showing more grace to others, first turn my attention to the understanding and appreciation and "praise of his glorious grace".

Thanks for engaging. I benefit personally from writing and thinking of these things and in that way you have blessed me.

PS - Jethro, you posted as I was working on this post. Just want you to know I wasn't blowing you off. Other than maybe seeing the Hebrew passage a bit differently, it looks like you beat me to some of my own thoughts. I would have been first if I knew how to type faster!

 

[brother Paul]

Trust me Hospes we all benefit from one another. You have no idea but I have come full circle on some issues, and been shown to have misunderstood some pretty basic stuff on occasion. Its humbling but really healthy spiritually. My most important lesson however was to try and divorce myself from one or another particular "theology" and try to digest the whole council of God's word an each given issue rather than "interpreting" it (which often is just how some people see it or think it means) and yet always be open for correction (especially from the Holy Spirit but also though our many brothers and sisters)....but now though I see through a glass darkly one day when face to face I shall know even as I am known...I wait in hopeful anticipation of that great and terrible day. Be blessed....

 

[smaller]

Matthew 18:32
Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

There seems to still be memory of the history of transgression.

While this comment might not fit the way some think, I see a short comment might be ok.

There are several legal system rules that seem to be based on bible principles.
Expungement
Governors pardon

My examples may not be the best, but the record of crime in one case is not forgotten.

We never forget God's benefits.

The law makes us aware of sin (lawful use ?)
Jesus bore the penalty for our sins (forgiveness)
Holy Spirit provides power to witness (empowerment)

Law written on gentile hearts?

eddif

You have demonstrated a lean to the inner sights on these matters, so I'll set a post on the subject of forgiveness and UNforgiveness with you to consider.

What do we make of this?

Matt. 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

I'll use an example here of the men who nailed Jesus to His Cross. Jesus forgave these men, even in the midst of them participating in His Killing.

Does that mean Jesus left off judgments? Heavens NO!

Let's look at these men from the eyes, the TWO EYES of scripture.

Both forgiveness AND Divine Judgment without mercy are available to be had IF we perceive the conditions of the men. How so? Observe the inner condition of the spiritually blinded. They are blinded in mind by the "god of this world." 2 Cor. 4:4. They are under the power of darkness, the power of Satan. Acts 26:18.

Do we see just the men in this? No! We see the blinded, in darkness, who know not what they do, AND we see the power of darkness, of Satan, who has his pawns and moves them in the flesh as he so performs.

There is forgiveness and Gods Mercy. There is also Divine Judgment without mercy. Both available to be had in a SINGLE PACKAGE.

One we are not to judge lest we ourselves fall under judgment. The other we are entirely FREE to judge without mercy.

Both sides of the equation can be fulfilled IF we judge properly.

This "form" of judgment will not be seen by anyone under the power of darkness. They can not see it until they perceive their own present condition in the flesh.

In Matt. 7:5 this condition is identified by Jesus as hypocrisy. Unless and until we JUDGE OURSELVES accurately, we will NEVER be able to see or perceive the condition of the other people.

Believers who are hypocrites are already under Divine Adverse Judgment, without Mercy.

Nevertheless the believer will go free of that working of the adversary in their own flesh.

Hope peeling the onion of scripture doesn't make too many people cry.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's wonderful to share our thoughts - new and beautiful ideas could always come forth.

Here is something I never considered before:

From Jethro:
By not forgiving others the same debt of righteousness that we ourselves have had forgiven by the king we are demonstrating our contempt for the king's free gift. This is analogous with the person in Hebrews 10:26-31 NASB who tramples on the blood of Jesus that sanctified him, and with the person in Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB who tastes the heavenly gift but who then falls away.

From Hospes:
I think the king's angry reaction to the wicked servant's lack of forgiveness is because the servant's actions spoke to the utter lack of appreciation for what the king had done for him. Because of this, I think my unwillingness to forgive is nothing short of showing contempt toward my God. It is me - through my actions - looking at God and saying the suffering of his son and the blood his son shed was really no big deal.

I can't think of a better reason as to why we should forgive. After many lessons and reading on why we should forgive, I've never come across this explanation (or I can't remember). I was always told that IN SOME WAY it hinders God. This is how it hinders Him! We have a hard heart when we can't forgive. How is God to work when we have a hard heart?? Not easy. It's like saying " God, I expect you to forgive ME, but don't expect me to forgive..." Bad attitude indeed.

Thanks to both of you.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it also depends on who we are dealing with. It is my understanding from Matt. 18:15-27 and other passages in Luke as well as Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 we are to have a different standard for a brother or sister (one claiming to be a follower of Jesus) and a worldly person.

For a believer we should first go to them in private and talk about it, or then bring witnesses, or bring it to the attention of the church and possibly even excommunicate them (not share the Lords Table) and if in the end they refuse to repent treat them as we would any unbelieving gentile or Jew.....the first "If he hear you, forgive" or "if he repents, forgive him" (even 7 x 7) looking for the fruit of repentance....on the other hand, we hold out forgiveness to the latter because "they know not what they do"...

Agree disagree?

Sorry Brother Paul,
I have to disagree with both you and Jethro on this one.
Why would it depend on who we're dealing with?
The church is a go-between if two believers are involved, and sometimes even that doesn't help - I know from experience that it could not work out well as a final result.

1 Corinthians just says not to associate with immoral persons. Be they believers or non-believers.
1 Corinthians 5:10-11

I'd say that anyone must be forgiven. My neighbor, who I brought up early on, and who treated my granddaughter badly - probably not fully aware of what she was doing, HAD to be forgiven. Why hold the resentment inside? Most people are not even aware of how they're acting in any given circumstance.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

You have demonstrated a lean to the inner sights on these matters, so I'll set a post on the subject of forgiveness and UNforgiveness with you to consider.

What do we make of this?

Matt. 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

I'll use an example here of the men who nailed Jesus to His Cross. Jesus forgave these men, even in the midst of them participating in His Killing.

Does that mean Jesus left off judgments? Heavens NO!

Let's look at these men from the eyes, the TWO EYES of scripture.

Both forgiveness AND Divine Judgment without mercy are available to be had IF we perceive the conditions of the men. How so? Observe the inner condition of the spiritually blinded. They are blinded in mind by the "god of this world." 2 Cor. 4:4. They are under the power of darkness, the power of Satan. Acts 26:18.

Do we see just the men in this? No! We see the blinded, in darkness, who know not what they do, AND we see the power of darkness, of Satan, who has his pawns and moves them in the flesh as he so performs.

There is forgiveness and Gods Mercy. There is also Divine Judgment without mercy. Both available to be had in a SINGLE PACKAGE.

One we are not to judge lest we ourselves fall under judgment. The other we are entirely FREE to judge without mercy.

Both sides of the equation can be fulfilled IF we judge properly.

This "form" of judgment will not be seen by anyone under the power of darkness. They can not see it until they perceive their own present condition in the flesh.

In Matt. 7:5 this condition is identified by Jesus as hypocrisy. Unless and until we JUDGE OURSELVES accurately, we will NEVER be able to see or perceive the condition of the other people.

Believers who are hypocrites are already under Divine Adverse Judgment, without Mercy.

Nevertheless the believer will go free of that working of the adversary in their own flesh.

Hope peeling the onion of scripture doesn't make too many people cry.

A couple of thoughts:
Oh wretched man that I am...

If we see how sin envelopes all of us and if we can perceive how easy it is to sin, then it will be far easier to forgive others.

Some believe that in the end God will forgive everyone exactly because of the fact that Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" and no one really knows what they're doing. It's an interesting concept, but not biblical.

If someone out there is going to tell me it's not easy to sin, I just want to remind them how perfect God is, how radiant, how just. His bar is set very high. We sin many times during the day and were it not for God's Son, we'd be without hope.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

A couple of thoughts:
Oh wretched man that I am...

If we see how sin envelopes all of us and if we can perceive how easy it is to sin, then it will be far easier to forgive others.

Some believe that in the end God will forgive everyone exactly because of the fact that Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" and no one really knows what they're doing. It's an interesting concept, but not biblical.

If someone out there is going to tell me it's not easy to sin, I just want to remind them how perfect God is, how radiant, how just. His bar is set very high. We sin many times during the day and were it not for God's Son, we'd be without hope.

Wondering

We are the unmerited receivers of Forgiveness, Grace and Mercy in Christ because we are sinners.

Not forgiving others of ALL their sins does however have Divine repercussions both in this life and the next.