Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[Malachi]

Adam lost a rib, but Jesus lost his blood and life for us

Correct. Therefore we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones (Eph 5:30). That indicates that just as Christ cannot (and will not) divest Himself of His members, Christian husbands and wives cannot divest themselves of each other till death do them part.

Then we see that Adam's sleep corresponds to Christ's three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. But the Lord was not sleeping. He was proclaiming His victory in the lower parts of the earth. His victory over sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan. Which should teach husbands and wives that they can have victory over their flesh in the power of the Spirit.

 

[eddif]

Hebrews 5:7 KJV
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Philippians 4:6 KJV
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Romans 7:24.KJV
wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Romans 6:14 KJV
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I Ccorinthians 7:21 KJV
And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

Matthew 22:30 KJV
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

At the last trump the flesh will be changed.

We are looking for the hope of Abraham.

Hebrews 11:16 KJV
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

My flesh needs to be dealt with like unto Christ.

eddif

 

[Chopper]

Correct. Therefore we are members of His Body, of His flesh, and of His bones (Eph 5:30). That indicates that just as Christ cannot (and will not) divest Himself of His members, Christian husbands and wives cannot divest themselves of each other till death do them part.

Then we see that Adam's sleep corresponds to Christ's three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. But the Lord was not sleeping. He was proclaiming His victory in the lower parts of the earth. His victory over sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan. Which should teach husbands and wives that they can have victory over their flesh in the power of the Spirit.

Over the years, my Wife and I have counseled many Christian's who had serious conflicts that jeopardized their marriage. Many times, it has been our experience that either husband or wife thought they "knew it all" and refused marriage counseling. In most cases, they divorced. For the ones who did come for counseling, they were amazed at the many Scriptures that dealt with a successful marriage. The wonderful Book of Ephesians is filled with teachings that, if followed, will restore any broken relationship.

In Chapter one, starting at verse 16, there is a power from God to enlighten any Christian to the potential of the help of YHWH to lead to a successful union with Him and each other. Married couples MUST learn daily about Who Jesus is, what He has done, and what He will do for those obedient to His Commands....

Ephesians 1:16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers,
1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him,
1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We should, in Bible studies, be able to come to some determinations about law as it relates to divorce. When God says, in the law, whatever law, not to do something, then the carnal or sin nature of man resists that law.

Only in unbelievers, smaller.
The inclination of the the born again person is to figure out how to uphold the requirements of God. While the inclination of those who are still in the flesh and without the Spirit is to figure out how to do what God prohibits. (Born again people, stop and remember how you responded to 'church' things before you were saved, and how you respond to them now).

You always make it sound like the law and it's requirements is my enemy. That's not even remotely close to the truth. Now that I'm born again I LOVE the law and the requirements of God. They are my first desire. The temptations that come from the flesh represent another alien desire in me (no, that's not the devil in me, it's my flesh). THAT is what I resist. I do NOT resist the lawful requirements of God. I'm born again. I have a new nature.

This is why this subject of divorce is so touchy for me. I can't relate to people in the church who seem to have little to no resistance to the fact that marital/sexual fulfillment is more important to them than doing what God wants them to do. I'm not suggesting it's not a struggle to have a new nature that tries to figure out how to keep God's will while the flesh barks out it's commands. What I'm wondering is why this change of nature that wants to figure out how to do God's will first and above all else seems so terribly absent in some (many?) Christians. Their sexual/marital/romantic/emotional fulfillment and joy is more important to them than hurting their families with divorce as if they don't even have a new nature compelling them to strive to do God's will.

I can't/won't go into details, but last Sunday I was sitting in church soaking up a sermon and thinking about an issue I'm struggling with right now. The thought flashed through my mind that I would rather be isolated and in lack with God alone and not have what I want than continue to struggle with the thing I'm struggling with. My heart was flushed with joy and peace and contentment at the thought. At the end of the day, when we're worn out with the struggle, why don't more Christians find the desert place alone with God the more appealing option and goal over and above earthly/fleshly fulfillment?

Relating this all to marriage and divorce, this passage is probably the single best marriage scripture in the whole Bible:

"1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel." (James 4:1-2 NASB)

I'm not speaking from an ivory tower. This is coming right out of the trenches of human warfare. We get all mad and pouty faced because we don't get what we want out of our spouses, so we resort to sin to try to please ourselves and get what we want (see above), including divorce in the hope we'll finally get the romantic/emotional/sexual/marital pleasure and satisfaction our bodies are longing for. For the Christian, because he has intimacy with God, he/she can choose to give up the pursuit of those things and give in to the compulsion of the Spirit of God within drawing them into the isolated life of inner joy and life and peace and contentment from which no violation of God's commands flows.

 

[smaller]

Only in unbelievers, smaller.

Uh, no. Paul was clear about what happened with himself in these matters post salvation. With regards to lust for example from Romans 7:7-13. This is the basis of Paul's entire Gospel of Grace, Alone. Paul saw the matters as Jesus "factually" stated, that adultery in mind IS adultery in heart. Matt. 5:28.

The inclination of the the born again person is to figure out how to uphold the requirements of God. While the inclination of those who are still in the flesh and without the Spirit is to figure out how to do what God prohibits. (Born again people, stop and remember how you responded to 'church' things before you were saved, and how you respond to them now).

We've had this discussion an adequate amount of times now for you to know that the posture we have against sin is to be over it, but NOT in eradication. And we also have other variations as to sin act which is how most see sin, to the presence of sin indwelling the flesh as a permanent matter of the flesh. (my sight from Paul in Romans 7:17-20)

Anyone who thinks they are sinless (or legal or obedient to the law(s) or are only a sinner by committing the external actions of sin is far from scriptural accuracy.

You always make it sound like the law and it's requirements is my enemy.

I've never made such a statement. I have no issues whatsover with God in Christ, by His Laws being entirely against, firmly so, all sin and evil, internal and external. But this will cause a believer, RIGHTFULLY, not to see the entirety of themselves in only good standing. So, yes the Law is righteous, holy and good if used properly. Doesn't mean there are any lawful believers though.

That's not even remotely close to the truth.

That's because your "seem" is not my sight from scriptures. So, dead end logic train from your end to start with.

Now that I'm born again I LOVE the law and the requirements of God. They are my first desire. The temptations that come from the flesh represent another alien desire in me (no, that's not the devil in me, it's my flesh). THAT is what I resist. I do NOT resist the lawful requirements of God. I'm born again. I have a new nature.

The flesh, because of the "fact" of indwelling sin and evil present with us is contrary to and against the Spirit. This won't change for any believer. Paul shows that his flesh still served the law of sin in Romans 7:25. Even though his mind loved the Law. I relate entirely to that sight.

This is why this subject of divorce is so touchy for me. I can't relate to people in the church who seem to have little to no resistance to the fact that marital/sexual fulfillment is more important to them than doing what God wants them to do. I'm not suggesting it's not a struggle to have a new nature that tries to figure out how to keep God's will while the flesh barks out it's commands. What I'm wondering is why this change of nature that wants to figure out how to do God's will first and above all else seems so terribly absent in some (many?) Christians. Their sexual/marital/romantic/emotional fulfillment and joy is more important to them than hurting their families with divorce as if they don't even have a new nature compelling them to strive to do God's will.

I'll maintain that the law (and the constant barrage of various forms of immorality we are pummeled with constantly in the world from every angle) will cause thoughts of adultery, internally, in every married believing person. Married believers can claim all the self righteousness they please in front of others.

Honest believers will tell the truth. Well, at least as it relates to scripture and this happening. I sure as heck ain't stupid enough to ever have that kind of conversation with my wife. But we both have enough common sense to know it's a fact, regardless and don't have to discuss it.

I can't/won't go into details, but last Sunday I was sitting in church soaking up a sermon and thinking about an issue I'm struggling with right now. The thought flashed through my mind that I would rather be isolated and in lack with God alone and not have what I want than continue to struggle with the thing I'm struggling with.

My first encounter with the above kind of thing was shortly after I was saved, many long decades ago. After I'd satisfactorily wiped out everything I figured was a sin, drinking, smoking, discussing things with the guys about women that were inappropriate, etc etc. I felt I was doing OK. The mere thought of doing anything wrong repulsed me. After this exercise, which prior was immediately after I was saved, in church assembly I'd do confession, repentance, contrition, take communion and have that 'good' "I'm all square with God" feeling, and I'd no sooner turn around from the altar and kablam, I'd get left fielded by an evil or lustful thought. And I tried, as HARD as I could to stop these intrusions. But it wasn't happening. It was like there was an unseen mind operating in my thought arena. It was then I began the rigorous hunt in scriptures on this particular matter. It's not like I haven't had experience with this, and scripture helped me, greatly, to identify why this happens. And, as you KNOW, I DO attribute this kind of stuff to the tempter who operates in the flesh. It became much easier NOT to be deceived when I knew it was NO LONGER I!!!

My heart was flushed with joy and peace and contentment at the thought. At the end of the day, when we're worn out with the struggle, why don't more Christians find the desert place alone with God the more appealing option and goal over and above earthly/fleshly fulfillment?

I spend an inordinate amount of alone time, reasoning with God in Christ over every aspect of my life. It's a constant engagement. I seldom, if ever, think of myself as alone, because I'm not, ever. Pretty sure I bore God to death, but whatever. I gotta dialog. A LOT. I've had struggles that took decades to get through. Mostly business worldly kind of stuff, but critical stuff in my life regardless. I've been quite fortunate in my "helpmate" situation. Thank God! I don't think my life would be anything without my wife, seriously.

Relating this all to marriage and divorce, this passage is probably the single best marriage scripture in the whole Bible:

"1 What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel." (James 4:1-2 NASB)

I'm not speaking from an ivory tower. This is coming right out of the trenches of human warfare. We get all mad and pouty faced because we don't get what we want out of our spouses, so we resort to sin to try to please ourselves and get what we want (see above), including divorce in the hope we'll finally get the romantic/emotional/sexual/marital pleasure and satisfaction our bodies are longing for. For the Christian, because he has intimacy with God, he/she can choose to give up the pursuit of those things and give in to the compulsion of the Spirit of God within drawing them into the isolated life of inner joy and life and peace and contentment from which no violation of God's commands flows.

For some, that may be true. Probably not so much for the many. Most people are built to desire communion with other people. Lest we live our lives and find out we only had a relationship with our own conscience and imaginations of God. I've been down this track in the charismatic realm. Had to get back to what's in writing for my spiritual feeding.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Uh, no. Paul was clear about what happened with himself in these matters post salvation.

....but before God's solution in Romans 8.

Paul saw the matters as Jesus "factually" stated, that adultery in mind IS adultery in heart. Matt. 5:28.

We know that, but how does that mean I'm still a victim of the law in that it makes me, a believer, violate it, and that's why I'm thinking adulterous thoughts?

Anyone who thinks they are sinless (or legal or obedient to the law(s) or are only a sinner by committing the external actions of sin is far from scriptural accuracy.

No, the argument is not that someone can become sinless. The argument being leveled against your strain of doctrine is that the believer is no longer a slave to sin. If he sins, he sins out of ignorance, weakness, or arrogance, NOT because he is still enslaved to a sin nature he no longer has.

Doesn't mean there are any lawful believers though.

Right. What I resist is the suggestion that I'm still a slave to sin so that I HAVE to sin at the mere mention of a law.
The law doesn't do that to me anymore. It can't! I'm a new creation. The law can only hold an unbeliever in bondage to sin, not a born again Christian. If a Christian is coming into bondage at the hearing of the lawful requirements of God he is either 1) not really born again, or 2) horribly ignorant and/or untrained in the factual truth that he is no longer a slave to sin for whom the law keeps bound in that relationship with sin.

Paul shows that his flesh still served the law of sin in Romans 7:25. Even though his mind loved the Law. I relate entirely to that sight.

...but you fail to relate to the answer to Paul's plight that he shares in Romans 8. You start and end your doctrine in Romans 7 and ignore what delivers the wretched man that Paul is from his failed struggle with sin. This is what I resist thoroughly and totally about your doctrine.

I'll maintain that the law (and the constant barrage of various forms of immorality we are pummeled with constantly in the world from every angle) will cause thoughts of adultery, internally, in every married believing person.

That's funny, but it's the immorality of the world and my own evil desires that causes thoughts of adultery inside of this married, believing person, not the law. What am I doing wrong? In fact, the requirements of God cause me to think on and desire what the law requires. Which is so very different than when I was an unbeliever. You can say I'm self righteous, or deceived, or whatever, but my experience is the one that lines up with scripture, not yours.

Married believers can claim all the self righteousness they please in front of others.

Why is all righteousness 'self' righteousness? When I do something righteous I most certainly am acting righteously, just not self righteously, because I can't do that ('self' righteous is a misnomer). But that hardly means the scant righteousness I do perform (by the Spirit of God) is not some kind of righteousness credited to my account.

IBB....

 

[smaller]

....but before God's solution in Romans 8.

I don't see how you can see any solution for indwelling sin/evil present OTHER THAN Gods factual and firm condemnation of it. Romans 8:3. There is no "solution" whereby we are made SINLESS in the flesh in this present life. We can in about an instant be turned into liars about it, however.

To REIGN over sin does NOT mean "eradication." That comes later, in Phil 3:21.

We know that, but how does that mean I'm still a victim of the law in that it makes me, a believer, violate it, and that's why I'm thinking adulterous thoughts?

I'd suggest that in any examination of SIN, we are going find the tempter on the other end of the scriptural string. So it's not just "you" or "me" engaged in these matters.

To see the foreign intrusion, into the flesh and mind, is to be completely repulsed by that thought. You do realize that IF we are tempted, internally, by the tempter, that puts the worst sinner that has ever existed in our own flesh to do so.

IF you then realize WHY you should HATE your present life in the flesh, you have taken the first step into discipleship, because there IS a basis for that hatred that is not YOU or I or father, mother, wife, children, brethren, sisters.

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Let's see divorce for what it is. A DECEPTION of Satanic origins.

No, the argument is not that someone can become sinless.

Well, I'm glad we got that fact off the table. It's quite a common fallacy among believers though. Thinking that they are, at any time, sinless.

Sin indwelling the flesh, evil present with us, can NOT be legal or obedient or "married to Christ" or "saved" or "under Grace" or even FORGIVEN. These things are all, in fact, demonic in the sight of the Spirit. The devil can not be forgiven. We can.

The argument being leveled against your strain of doctrine

I don't take any of these things as "my sights" or "my doctrines." I can read the scriptures and submit to the truth of what they say.

is that the believer is no longer a slave to sin.

I will differentiate between an EXTERNAL SLAVE, who is a SLAVE in everyone's eyes, and believers who keep things in checkmate. That is, until, they are liars and hypocrites about these matters. Then they are actually the WORSE slave of sin. The very working/worker that Jesus HATED the most.

If he sins, he sins out of ignorance, weakness, or arrogance, NOT because he is still enslaved to a sin nature he no longer has.

I don't think you really get the picture Jethro. There is no time that we are NOT sinners. You speak only of the external act of sin. That is NOT what is being discussed. Sin and evil is INTERNAL in origin.

If this thread breezed past Matt. 5:28 and Matt. 15:19-20 in this Matthew study and DIDN'T apply those facts to SELF, then whatever else anyone thought was gained is meaningless.

We are SINNERS in thought and we have EVIL embedded into our very conscience, by Gods Own Design of the natural flesh man. When we see the sin/evil quotient as being demonic/satanic, we THEN have our basis for HATRED of SELF.

Right. What I resist is the suggestion that I'm still a slave to sin so that I HAVE to sin at the mere mention of a law.

Reigning over should not result in denial of being a sinner, of having sin, of having an evil conscience, and of DOING external acts of sin/evil and things we hate. Paul hit the nail on the head on every count, personally, AFTER salvation. That's why the whole "works salvation" theories are meaningless drivel. It's not even remotely possible.

What we WILL come to know, when we are honest, is that we NEED Gods Mercy, precisely because of the situation that God Himself has put us in.

God WILL have His Mercy. And putting us in the position of NEED of same is part of this present life. When we see that God DOES have the ability to make life worse for us OR that God can and does raise up RESISTANCE and can deal with it quite harshly, it hits home. Think of it this way. You and I can see our relationship to God just FINE and dandy. But when we bring the tempter into the equations, in our own flesh, and we realize that God can and does deal ADVERSARILY with that party,

THEN we have real genuine FEAR of God in Christ.

And yes, I HAVE THAT FEAR!

The law doesn't do that to me anymore. It can't! I'm a new creation.

It's not just "you" involved in the Law. The law was made for sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9. Is the DEVIL a sinner? Yes. 1 John 3:8. Is Satan, the devil, moved into resisting actions by the LAW? You better believe it! Mark 4:15 shows us that Satan IS moved into adverse actions IN MAN by the Word of God and that Word is LAW.

These are not just questions about us.

So, we ask, WHY is there divorce? Because there is a LAWLESS SINNER that imposes a will that is NOT OUR OWN when it comes to LAW.

We can blindly discuss these matters OR we can get ALL the parties on the table for view.

In regards to divorce, the first observation I made was that DIVORCE starts internally, via EVIL SIN THOUGHTS, and those are courtesy of our mutual adversary. When that bad actor has control of the flesh, it will result in EXTERNAL divorce.

And just to be clear, no ones contrary to the Spirit, against the Spirit FLESH Gal. 5:17, is married to Christ, period. Christ will NOT be taking on a VILE FLESH BRIDE.

Our marriage to Christ transpires and consummates AFTER Phil. 3:21.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no "solution" whereby we are made SINLESS in the flesh in this present life.

Lol, that's not even the argument!
NO ONE, not a single person, not even Paul, claims that we are in our glorified bodies in this life. NO ONE. But what is claimed is that Paul encourages us that there is a solution to being in slavery to sin--the death of the sin nature through belief in Christ and the Holy Spirit. You seem to be insisting that he is wrong, that we are indeed doomed to be slaves to sin. It's easily argued that anyone who is still enslaved by sin is still in the flesh, meaning they simply don't have the Spirit of God in them that they should not be slaves to sin. You have to stop understanding the argument for the end of the slavery to sin as sinless perfection in a glorified body on this earth.

 

[smaller]

Lol, that's not even the argument! NO ONE, not a single person, not even Paul, claims that we are in our glorified bodies in this life. NO ONE. But what is claimed is that Paul encourages us that there is a solution to being in slavery to sin--the death of the sin nature through belief in Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I really don't think you got the picture at all Jethro. Our bodes die because of indwelling sin. Indwelling sin doesn't stop this work until it's complete. In the meantime we account that death of the body as a reality. You say we don't sin?

Paul says "I am" the chief of sinners after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15, had lustful thoughts after salvation, Romans 7:7-13, did things he hated after salvation, Romans 7:15 did evil after salvation, Romans 7:19, had temptation and a messenger of Satan in his flesh. Gal. 4:14 and 2 Cor. 12:7, after salvation.

Now, just who is telling the truth here? Paul or Jethro?

I'll have to say Paul was telling the truth. And anyone who can't stand in his same shoes, personally, is pulling their own theological legs.

Paul, after salvation:

"I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:14.

Am, not was.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You say we don't sin?

That is absolutely NOT what I say. That is what you hear. And that is the problem.
What I'm saying is what Paul said: We are no longer slaves to sin that we have to continue to sin against our will.

Now, answer this simple question: Are Christians slaves to sin? Yes, or no?

 

[smaller]

That is absolutely NOT what I say. That is what you hear. And that is the problem.
What I'm saying is what Paul said: We are no longer slaves to sin that we have to continue to sin against our will.

We're slaves of SIN the instant we say OR think we're NOT sinners, we are deceived and in speaking that deception, we are then made a LIAR by indwelling sin. And more than likely a hypocrite as well.

Sin dwells IN the flesh. Romans 7:17-21

Now, answer this simple question: Are Christians slaves to sin? Yes, or no?

Sin dwells in the flesh. We REIGN over it.

That does not mean we don't HAVE IT to reign over.

Reign comes first, by HONESTY. When we no longer LIE to ourselves or to others, thinking that because we ACT good on the outside, we're not sinners. That was never the case. Scripture has concluded that ALL are under sin. Gal. 3:22

Put on a good act. The instant we LIE about not having sin dwelling IN OUR FLESH, all the good acting con job in the world is NOT going to fool God about the sin that dwells IN our flesh.

So, you talk about being a slave of sin? How about being the SLAVE of a LIE?

 

[smaller]

We can take any of Gods Laws. Pick the laws against adultery, the topic du jour from Matthew.

Is the presence of indwelling sin in the flesh, legal under the law?

It'll never happen. Not in a gazillion years.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We're slaves of SIN the instant we say OR think we're NOT sinners, we are deceived and in speaking that deception, we are then made a LIAR by indwelling sin. And more than likely a hypocrite as well.

Sin dwells IN the flesh. Romans 7:17-21


Sin dwells in the flesh. We REIGN over it.

That does not mean we don't HAVE IT to reign over.

Lol, who is this ghost you keep hearing say we don't have sin? I have NEVER heard a Christian in all 30 years of being born again say we don't have sin. Not a single one.

Reign comes first, by HONESTY. When we no longer LIE to ourselves or to others, thinking that because we ACT good on the outside, we're not sinners.

Listen carefully: We are not sinners in that we are no longer slaves to sin. Not we are no longer sinners in that we don't sin anymore. That is an absolutely absurd belief that I have never heard a single Christian even remotely suggest is true that requires you to adopt this doctrine of yours.

This is what Paul means when he speaks of us not being sinners anymore:

"neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 5: NASB)

Do you think for even a second that he is telling them they do not sin anymore? Of course not.

That was never the case. Scripture has concluded that ALL are under sin. Gal. 3:22

Put on a good act. The instant we LIE about not having sin dwelling IN OUR FLESH, all the good acting con job in the world is NOT going to fool God about the sin that dwells IN our flesh.

So, you talk about being a slave of sin? How about being the SLAVE of a LIE?

Okay, so it looks like you think we're still slaves to sin. Here's what Paul says:

17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Now, based on the above, are born again Christians slaves to sin? Absolutely not. Does that mean we don't sin. Of course not. What it means is exactly what Paul says: We are not slaves to sin anymore. Somehow you're hearing it as 'we are still slaves to sin and always will be'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul, after salvation:

"I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:14.

No, that is NOT after salvation. I showed you where he says slaves to God are NOT slaves to sin that we should live in it anymore.
You conveniently leave out the good news in Romans 8 to Paul's plight in Romans 7 you cite above that says because of the Holy Spirit and the death of the sin nature we are not doomed to be the 'wretched man that I am' in Romans 7 that can't do right. Of course you're probably hearing 'do right' as 'sinless perfection'. That's why you can't get Paul's teaching.

Relating this to divorce: People have the same attitude you have, a lack of faith and/or a misunderstanding in Paul's teaching which says we are NOT slaves to sin and can therefore resist the temptations of our flesh bodies so that we can endure a dead end marriage. This thinking is what drives these justifications for divorce that are in clear defiance of God's command not to.

Born again Christians don't get divorced when they aren't allowed to get a divorce because the command says not to do that, as you are insisting (as if we are still slaves to sin and have the sin nature that gets aroused by the law). No, we sin that sin because of a lack of faith and/or knowledge of God's power in us by the Holy Spirit to choose to please God over and above our earthly, bodily desires for marital bliss. Or we just plain defy God in open arrogance in favor of those earthly desires.

 

[smaller]

Lol, who is this ghost you keep hearing say we don't have sin? I have NEVER heard a Christian in all 30 years of being born again say we don't have sin. Not a single one.

Is sin indwelling the flesh legal Jethro?

Listen carefully: We are not sinners in that we are no longer slaves to sin.

Sin indwells the flesh Jethro. There is no dodging it by good acting jobs. You do know the meaning of hypocrite is an ACTOR do you not?

Not we are no longer sinners in that we don't sin anymore.

We never ceased being sinners Mr. Jethro. Sorry to inform you that sin dwells IN our flesh. Whether it's seen on the outside or not, is entirely irrelevant.

You know what we see when two believers are married? Two sinners, married.

That is an absolutely absurd belief that I have never heard a single Christian even remotely suggest is true that requires you to adopt this doctrine of yours.

I've highlighted a couple of the entirely bogus claims above.

The posture is bogus.

This is how every believer walks, without exception:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

There is no escape available by hook or by crook for what the Spirit is AGAINST and CONTRARY to. No good acting job is going to make these TWO merge.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And just to be clear, no ones contrary to the Spirit, against the Spirit FLESH Gal. 5:17, is married to Christ, period. Christ will NOT be taking on a VILE FLESH BRIDE.

"15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” 17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?" (1 Corinthians 6:15-17,19 NASB)

I think Christ is indeed 'married' to my flesh body. Paul says not to join it with a prostitute because it's the Lord's. I have the Spirit of God in me. He did indeed take on this vile flesh bride. He can do that because this vile flesh bride has been made clean, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Just because I'm not real good at keeping it clean doesn't mean Christ did not join himself to it.

 

[smaller]

No, that is NOT after salvation.

Paul said "I am," not was.

"I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:14.

Paul also said I DO things I hate, not DID. Paul said I DO evil, not DID. These are all post salvation present tense statements of fact from Paul. Not as did, but DO.

I showed you where he says slaves to God are NOT slaves to sin that we should live in it anymore.

There remains what is contrary to and against the Spirit, regardless. And that is sin dwelling IN the flesh.

You conveniently leave out the good news in Romans 8 to Paul's plight in Romans 7 you cite

It is a plight for sin dwelling IN the flesh, which IS under the CONDEMNATION of God in Christ. Romans 8:3. Why do you think Paul bewailed his wretchedness! He knew God in Christ IS against sin that dwells IN our flesh, in condemnation of it.

But Paul, as any of us would, expects God in Christ to be against this. And we expect the LAW to be against sin dwelling in the flesh as well. The law reveals, Christ condemns.

above that says because of the Holy Spirit and the death of the sin nature we are not doomed to be the 'wretched man that I am' in Romans 7 that can't do right.

Even in "doing right" it will not put sin dwelling IN the flesh off the hook. That's why a person can NOT be justified by their works, because they are trying in that to justify sin dwelling in the flesh. It can't be done!

The practice of Christianity is DISASSOCIATION, not DENIAL.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sin indwells the flesh Jethro. There is no dodging it by good acting jobs. You do know the meaning of hypocrite is an ACTOR do you not?

You're not listening. Not being a sinner does not mean you don't sin as you are claiming. That is why your doctrine has no practical value. You've built it on the incorrect premise that 'not being a sinner' means you never sin. When what it means is God does not see you in your sin when you get born again. He sees you in the covering of Christ's righteousness. That is, as long as you stay in that covering through a continuing faith in Christ.

 

[smaller]

"15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.” 17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?" (1 Corinthians 6:15-17,19 NASB)

I think Christ is indeed 'married' to my flesh body. Paul says not to join it with a prostitute because it's the Lord's. I have the Spirit of God in me. He did indeed take on this vile flesh bride. He can do that because this vile flesh bride has been made clean, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. Just because I'm not real good at keeping it clean doesn't mean Christ did not join himself to it.

Christ has not married, no, not once, not ever, flesh that is contrary to and against the Spirit. Ever. That will never happen.

What we are promised is CHANGE:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul said "I am," not was.

"I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:14.

I see, so you're saying he was lying when he said we are not slaves to sin in chapter 6. Is that what you're saying?

Obviously, smaller, he's setting the stage for the answer he gives in chapter 8 to the plight he is describing in chapter 7 of being a slave to sin. He's not saying he is not born again and is still at the very moment a slave to sin. He just got done saying in chapter 6 that Christians are NOT slaves to sin. Listen carefully: I did not say he said we never sin. I said that he said we are no longer slaves to sin that we should have to live in it anymore. That slavery ended with the death of task master/ husband named 'sin nature/mind set on the flesh'.