Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[GodsGrace]

Hi W.

Jesus said "what God has joined together..." This is why I believe God is not just a witness, but the actual "doer" of a marriage. When it comes to the burden of celibacy, I think God calls many to carry - by his grace - burdens. Therefore, carrying/avoiding a burden is not an indication of what his will may be. I know it was probably just a slip of the pen, but you used the word "forever" and thus I am given the opportunity to step upon another soap box.

Marriage is an earthly display of a heavenly truth. Marriage nor celibacy is forever for the Elect. The forever marriage is when Jesus takes us as his bride. Marriage on earth is the humming of the simple broken melody of the symphony we will have as the bride of our Lord. When that day happens, we will see the momentary burden of celibacy - along with any other burden - as a trifle in light of the glories of our eternity.

I agree with you Hospes. God is not only a witness to the marriage ceremony, He is the sealer of the Marriage Covenant.

Now, you know I meant "forever" on this earth. And, let me say, that although the burden of celibacy, or any other burden, will seem momentary as compared to eternity, right now it is very burdensome and we must muster up and accumulate our grace in order to accept our burdens and live with them. We're human, after all.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I hear what you're saying friend. I'm convinced that we as a whole do not understand how God forgives and how He treats the sin that He forgives and how He treats the person that He has forgiven.

Lets look at Wondering's example of a man who deserts his wife and moves to Rome. I assume they had some sort of counseling. He leaves anyway, his wife & child. What is she to do? Divorce the looser! He probably wasn't a Christian anyway. Now. Lets look at this sin of divorce. Lets call the woman Jane.

Jane gets a divorce of which she did not want. She pleaded with the Lord to change her husbands mind. After he left, he intended not to return. In effect, the marriage is dead.

Jane goes to the Lord in prayer, knowing full well that divorce is a sin and she initiated it. She asks God to forgive her sin of divorce and her repentance is that if she ever remarries, no matter what, she will never initiate a divorce. Forgiveness and repentance for Jane has happened.

God accepts Jane's forgiveness for divorce and accepts her repentance, and will hold her to her promise. Now the question comes, where is the sin that God has forgiven.....Isaiah 43:25 "I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins."

Jeremiah 31:34 "And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Hebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

The word remember, according to Strong's definition is....
zâkar
zaw-kar'
A primitive root; properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember; by implication to mention; (make) mention (of), be mindful, recount, record (-er), remember, make to be remembered, bring (call, come, keep, put) to (in) remembrance, X still, think on, X well.
Total KJV occurrences: 231

As we can see, once God's legal system of forgiveness is activated, (our God is the Judge) That sin of divorce is gone, in the mind of the Judge, Almighty God. So now, in the eyes of other Christians, usually those who have never divorced, They do remember Jane's divorce and judge her as a result.

Look how foolish and sinful people who keep bringing up the sin of divorce that Jane committed, and act as a judge demoting her in the eyes of fellow Christians. She now feels like a second class Christian. So where's the sin now? It certainly isn't with Jane, it's with the people who remember what God has, in His judicial system, classified as not to be brought up ever again.

I hardly ever use the NIV translation. In this case, I like the rendering of 1 Corinthians 13:5b. Speaking about love "It keeps no record of wrongs." There ya go! But folk go around accusing divorced people as being sinners when all the time the Scriptures are totally ignored.

SO what's the problem as I see it? People who think that people like Jane are under condemnation for divorcing her husband who deserted her and their child. Guess what? The people who condemn what God has forgiven, are in the wrong and need to go back to the Scriptures and re-study this whole matter of proper forgiveness and how to respond to someone who has been forgiven by the Judge of all mankind, Almighty YHWH.

Do I have this right?
Jane did not want the divorce. But the husband is not coming back. Several attempts have been made. So you're saying that Jane should initiate the actual divorce and that's why SHE should ask forgiveness even though it's the husband that abandoned the marriage. Yes. I'd have to agree if I understood properly. It's not her wish to divorce and God can forgive all sin.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

I was thinking the same thing.
Ultimately, we would have to know all the details to know whether or not this woman is justified in divorcing her husband for leaving to live away from the family.

If she's not bound to a husband who abandons her, (your post 1672) why would we have to know more detail?

I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than they care to tell you or ever would be able to tell you. But he did leave. I guess it could be asked if it was her responsibility to go with him, or his responsibility to stay with her since her family is here and this was the original plan from years ago.

Sounds like the blame game which goes all the way back to Genesis 3. Chopper must know that it takes two or it won't work. I'm certainly happy to not be the one to make such a determination! I'm really sorry for the child. One of them should have had more of a sense of responsibility for their offspring. Maybe that's what's missing today: the sense of responsibility toward others over the sense of self.

W

 

[smaller]

O my friend, if we could only remember this absolute Truth....Sorry girls, but especially women who, it seams, never forget a wrong that their husbands do.

My mom is in her mid eighties. She never forgets.

 

[Chopper]

Eddif says we're all the same in Christ Jesus.
I have to agree with you on this one Chopper. Men seem to be more like ducks - the water slides off their back. They forget hurts quicker, they forget arguments quicker. Women hold on more. Remember better. I noticed this many years ago and it keeps getting confirmed by many. There must be a reason - interesting. I'll bet you have some ideas... Tying into Mathew, could this have anything to do with the high rate of divorce? In my experience it seems to be the male that wants to leave. Maybe because the wives can't forget!!??

W
your post no. 1669 is great!

Hi Wonder Woman. You really nailed the problem with divorce. As a rule of thumb, men are responsible for many conflicts and argument in a marriage. Why? They cannot, or simply refuse to see things the Wife's way. I have counseled many couples who were having difficulties in their marriages. Men are not "feeling" motivated as a rule, whereby Women are.

In many counseling sessions, I've found that the Wife is more sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit than the Husband. Why? It's been my experience that women study the Scriptures a lot more than men do. As a result, the Husband just doesn't treat the Wife with understanding. Look at....

1Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

The Husband who doesn't understand his Wife, is in for a lot of conflict and could, without proper counseling, end the marriage with either separation or divorce....Tragic!!

Since I'm so familiar with what the Scriptures have to say about what makes for a successful marriage, and years of counseling married couples with various conflicts, I'm wondering if you and others think I should start a new thread on "This Marriage Won't Divorce". What do you folk think?

 

[Chopper]

Do I have this right?
Jane did not want the divorce. But the husband is not coming back. Several attempts have been made. So you're saying that Jane should initiate the actual divorce and that's why SHE should ask forgiveness even though it's the husband that abandoned the marriage. Yes. I'd have to agree if I understood properly. It's not her wish to divorce and God can forgive all sin.

W

That is correct. In this case, Jane should give a reasonable amount of time for this to happen....
1Co 7:10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband
1Co 7:11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.

Now that is the way it should be. After that reasonable time, the husband just might want the divorce. I'm suspect as to why he left. If that happens, he is responsible for the sin of divorce. If he is having sex there in Rome, he kills the marriage according to....Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."....Adultery kills the marriage. Why? In the Old Testament, the guilty party was stoned to death and the partner was free to remarry.

In the case of Jane, the divorce is forgiven, yes! Even though the husband left, that's desertion, almost as bad as adultery as it has to do with the marriage bond. In cases like this, I have found that the husband was not saved. A man who is a true Christian, who is Blood bought, Holy Spirit filled, will not leave his Wife and Children!!

Since the marriage is now dead through desertion, Jane just might meet a real true Christian man who will love her and her Child the way God intended and Jane will want to get married to him. Notice I didn't say remarry. As far as the forgiveness of Almighty God goes, this is Jane's first marriage.

Hey, I'm certainly not the final authority on this issue of marriage and divorce, God's judicial judgment on forgiveness is. My Buddy Jethro has given the best recommendation on this. Divorce is not an option for any marriage, especially if it's two Christian, Husband and Wife. If they divorce, they should remain without a partner.

I've had to wrestle with what is worse, a divorced Husband or Wife living with another person outside of marriage, which is a sin, or getting remarried, as some say is a sin. My answer is always, what does God forgive? He forgives the divorce, thus remarriage is not an issue. BUT, for a man and woman to live together having sex would require seeking forgiveness for that union and every time they had sex, which is foolish to even think about.

YHWH is the Judge. He has a legal system that covers all men and women. He is the final say on marriage and divorce, not me or anyone else. I've simply stated what I see from that legal system that our loving God set up. He desires us to live together loving each other like Jesus loves the Church. My goodness, Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. He forgave all our sins. Why in the world would we ever want to drag up sins that God has forgiven and accuse & remind others of those sins. Divorce and remarriage is one of them.

 

[Chopper]

My mom is in her mid eighties. She never forgets.

That's funny. My Mom lived to 99 years old. In the last two years of her life she had dementia, but before that, oh boy, like you said, she never forgets.

 

[smaller]

That's funny. My Mom lived to 99 years old. In the last two years of her life she had dementia, but before that, oh boy, like you said, she never forgets.

They put an elephants memory to shame. My mom still treats me as if I'm 10 years old, even though I'm eligible for social security this year and have grandchildren! Move on and past that already. I don't look back but forward.

Women are geared to details in the now. Men to bigger picture, future matters. Women like security. Men, respect. They often will not see eye to eye because of these basic differences in sights. My wife and I have been fortunate to recognize these traits in each others, and use them for mutual advantages. Not asking the other to change, as this is kind of impossible, ain't it? :yes Over the years I have become more like her, and she, like me. Which can be both good and bad, but most of the time kinda funny at this point in our lives. We think alike, seriously scary.

As it pertains to all this stuff about divorce, we have witnessed MANY people fall into divorce. You can see it coming miles away, ahead of time on many counts. So by the time there is an actual rift, it's not like it wasn't predictable. And life does have it's difficulties as well. The death of a child for example can be extremely disruptive to a marriage, because of grief and guilt, etc etc.

But there really are more factors to these equations that we seldom factor, and that is the "other adverse spiritual" influences that PREY upon everyone. Which is a far more interesting discourse.

 

[Chopper]

Your post smaller, reminds me of good advice that I heard somewhere. If the difference of opinions in married people's lives were looked upon as amusing rather than sources of arguments, couples would then respond with "why do you think that way." It really can be fun to examine why each spouse thinks the way they do. That investigation can be a marriage builder instead of marriage demolition.

 

[Hospes]

Am I confused? Didn't Jane's husband desire her to go with him?

 

[Chopper]

Am I confused? Didn't Jane's husband desire her to go with him?

A man should never ask his wife to move to another country away from her family if she doesn't want to. Many marriages are solid enough so that the Wife would feel safe with the move because it was an advancement for the whole family. Other marriages are ruled by a selfish husband who only cares about himself. Therefore the Wife is terrible insecure in that she is not loved the way she should be and is afraid he'll leave her for some Italian chic, and she'll be stuck in Rome.

The most important thing in a marriage is that the Wife feels secure.

 

[Hospes]

A man should never ask his wife to move to another country away from her family if she doesn't want to. Many marriages are solid enough so that the Wife would feel safe with the move because it was an advancement for the whole family. Other marriages are ruled by a selfish husband who only cares about himself. Therefore the Wife is terrible insecure in that she is not loved the way she should be and is afraid he'll leave her for some Italian chic, and she'll be stuck in Rome.

The most important thing in a marriage is that the Wife feels secure.

Not seeing that in scripture. How do you see a wife with such an attitude fitting with

For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. (1 Peter 3:5-6 ESV)​

Seems to me this passage is telling a wife to trust in her Lord if she desires security.

 

[eddif]

Jonah 4:9
And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.

I could post more verses, but here is a man carrying anger to the grave. God wants to save, but man wants to punish (natural man).

Woman came out of man. Everything woman is came out of man. They both fell.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

That is correct. In this case, Jane should give a reasonable amount of time for this to happen....
1Co 7:10 To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband
1Co 7:11 (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.

Now that is the way it should be. After that reasonable time, the husband just might want the divorce. I'm suspect as to why he left. If that happens, he is responsible for the sin of divorce. If he is having sex there in Rome, he kills the marriage according to....Matthew 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."....Adultery kills the marriage. Why? In the Old Testament, the guilty party was stoned to death and the partner was free to remarry.

In the case of Jane, the divorce is forgiven, yes! Even though the husband left, that's desertion, almost as bad as adultery as it has to do with the marriage bond. In cases like this, I have found that the husband was not saved. A man who is a true Christian, who is Blood bought, Holy Spirit filled, will not leave his Wife and Children!!

Since the marriage is now dead through desertion, Jane just might meet a real true Christian man who will love her and her Child the way God intended and Jane will want to get married to him. Notice I didn't say remarry. As far as the forgiveness of Almighty God goes, this is Jane's first marriage.

Hey, I'm certainly not the final authority on this issue of marriage and divorce, God's judicial judgment on forgiveness is. My Buddy Jethro has given the best recommendation on this. Divorce is not an option for any marriage, especially if it's two Christian, Husband and Wife. If they divorce, they should remain without a partner.

I've had to wrestle with what is worse, a divorced Husband or Wife living with another person outside of marriage, which is a sin, or getting remarried, as some say is a sin. My answer is always, what does God forgive? He forgives the divorce, thus remarriage is not an issue. BUT, for a man and woman to live together having sex would require seeking forgiveness for that union and every time they had sex, which is foolish to even think about.

YHWH is the Judge. He has a legal system that covers all men and women. He is the final say on marriage and divorce, not me or anyone else. I've simply stated what I see from that legal system that our loving God set up. He desires us to live together loving each other like Jesus loves the Church. My goodness, Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. He forgave all our sins. Why in the world would we ever want to drag up sins that God has forgiven and accuse & remind others of those sins. Divorce and remarriage is one of them.

Chopper,
Thanks for this well-reasoned reply. I would have to agree. Some would condemn this mother to remain alone all her life and I think that is not God's justice.
I agree that the husband is probably not a Christian and he is probably having relations with another by now - the suspicion is there.
Also, I'd have to agree that it's better to remarry. Because of the "continual sin" idea which I spoke about also in other posts. Living together shows lack of commitment and respect for the relationship and does constitute continual sin.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Your post smaller, reminds me of good advice that I heard somewhere. If the difference of opinions in married people's lives were looked upon as amusing rather than sources of arguments, couples would then respond with "why do you think that way." It really can be fun to examine why each spouse thinks the way they do. That investigation can be a marriage builder instead of marriage demolition.

Most men are not psychologically inclined and do not care to investigate WHY they feel a certain way.
They don't wish to "talk about it." It goes to that detail thinking men don't have that Smaller was speaking to.

Men are from Mars
Women are from Venus

The woman's movement way back when demanded that we understand that men and women are the same and that it's just culture that makes them different. But, of course, that has scientifically been proven wrong - which God had said was the case back in Genesis 1:27

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Not seeing that in scripture. How do you see a wife with such an attitude fitting with

For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening. (1 Peter 3:5-6 ESV)​

Seems to me this passage is telling a wife to trust in her Lord if she desires security.

Hospes,
I think we're talking about my friend's daughter here. "Jane". I think.
If so, the situation is personal and not suitable for general discussion but you bring up 1 Peter, so here it is:
Everything is taking place within Italy, which is where I live.
My friend was born here where I live but lived in Rome and raised her family there. (kind of like I raised my family in Queens, NYC). Her daughter got married there. About 15 yrs ago they decided to move back up here because it's more pleasant to raise a family. I live in a valley in a beautiful area with no crime (till now....) So they all moved back up here where there is also extended family and where they set up a business.

After years, he decided he couldn't live here anymore and wanted to move back to Rome. They'd had a child by now, he was about 9 when the father left. I think it was unfair, at this point, to ask the wife to move back there. Chopper is right in everything he says. A daughter looks to the mother and to the family for help. There's much help needed generally when sickness sets in, and also in helping to raise a child so that he's not abandoned to nursery schools, baby-sitters, etc. If it has to be that way, so be it. My son is in that situation, since he's in Connecticut and we could not help him - but if it could be avoided, I do think it best.

So Ephesians says that wives are subject to the husband, since he is the head of the home.
But husbands are to love their wives, and their children, and should do what is right at any given moment. Ephesians 5:22.25 (anyway, I doubt he's Christian...)

So we trust God, generally, for our security. But it's nice also to have some family and friends and a home and an income. Women do like security in a material sense too.

What say you?

W

 

[smaller]

Most men are not psychologically inclined and do not care to investigate WHY they feel a certain way.
They don't wish to "talk about it." It goes to that detail thinking men don't have that Smaller was speaking to.

W

I am somewhat cognizant that "Eve" was taken from within Adam. She was, in a fashion, Adam's INNER MAN. And as such she looks to INNER matters in great painstaking details that the outer or natural man does not perceive.

But in the axiom I deploy at home, YES DEAR, all things are made perfectly clear to me, even if I don't get it. :yes

 

[GodsGrace]

I am somewhat cognizant that "Eve" was taken from within Adam. She was, in a fashion, Adam's INNER MAN. And as such she looks to INNER matters in great painstaking details that the outer or natural man does not perceive.

But in the axiom I deploy at home, YES DEAR, all things are made perfectly clear to me, even if I don't get it. :yes

You're a smart man Smaller!

How about this: Eve was Adam's helpmate. SHE helps HIM to understand things. Even things he doesn't want to understand!


W

 

[smaller]

You're a smart man Smaller!

How about this: Eve was Adam's helpmate. SHE helps HIM to understand things. Even things he doesn't want to understand!


W

There are more interesting "deeper" equations to the matters. We know for example, that it was Eve, Adam's inner man, who was deceived, 1 Tim. 2:14. I might even say that the Adam, the natural man was not deceived, but instead entirely clueless about the deception, as he was "with" Eve during the entire discourse. The natural/carnal man NEVER understands Gods Laws. Romans 8:7

I might even go so far as to say that the inner man, Eve, was in fact DECEIVED by the lips of her own natural man mate. Remember, the command not to eat came to Adam, prior to Eve's separation/forming from within him. So it is ADAM who had to recount the command to Eve, and she botched it. She may very well have botched it because the natural man, Adam, did not tell the straight story on the command, as noted here:

Genesis 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

No, God didn't say that. Adam seemed to have added to the law just a tad. He wasn't paying close enough attentions to the DETAILS. And, the inner man then QUESTIONED Gods command, and was led into the deception.

I might suggest they were to TEND, but not to eat. But the LAW was amplified in both of their minds beyond what was stated by God. And this shows that the deception was well upon them both, internally, already, as it is with every natural/flesh/carnal person.

At the point of recognition that deception is an internal matter, we might understand what really happened to both of them, by Matthew for example, here, MORE LIGHT is shed upon that event:

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

And this is exactly what happened to them, and to all "natural flesh people" since.

There were TWO form of seed planted in the Garden. One was the seed of natural man. Here is a picture of both (including the adverse/wicked/deceiver) seed, when God spoke to the deceiver, the serpent.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This should spark some interesting details questions, from the inner man.

Seriously though, in these conversations about DIVORCE for example, we seldom look for the internal adverse influences factor by the DECEIVER. And are only looking at surface equations. That is the way of understandings only in the 'natural' and not really a deeper objective look at ALL the parties.

We all talk about Dick and Jane. But never about the internal deceptions of Satan, our mutual adversary.

It's not about just Dick and Jane. It's also about the deceptions we have in our flesh, and that by another party that is NOT Dick and Jane.

 

[Hospes]

Hospes,
I think we're talking about my friend's daughter here. "Jane". I think.
If so, the situation is personal and not suitable for general discussion but you bring up 1 Peter, so here it is:
Everything is taking place within Italy, which is where I live.
My friend was born here where I live but lived in Rome and raised her family there. (kind of like I raised my family in Queens, NYC). Her daughter got married there. About 15 yrs ago they decided to move back up here because it's more pleasant to raise a family. I live in a valley in a beautiful area with no crime (till now....) So they all moved back up here where there is also extended family and where they set up a business.

After years, he decided he couldn't live here anymore and wanted to move back to Rome. They'd had a child by now, he was about 9 when the father left. I think it was unfair, at this point, to ask the wife to move back there. Chopper is right in everything he says. A daughter looks to the mother and to the family for help. There's much help needed generally when sickness sets in, and also in helping to raise a child so that he's not abandoned to nursery schools, baby-sitters, etc. If it has to be that way, so be it. My son is in that situation, since he's in Connecticut and we could not help him - but if it could be avoided, I do think it best.

So Ephesians says that wives are subject to the husband, since he is the head of the home.
But husbands are to love their wives, and their children, and should do what is right at any given moment. Ephesians 5:22.25 (anyway, I doubt he's Christian...)

So we trust God, generally, for our security. But it's nice also to have some family and friends and a home and an income. Women do like security in a material sense too.

What say you?

W,

I knew there was more to the situation; there always is. I do not know enough to give counsel for your friend's daughter and I recognize I am not called to do so. I'll give you my thoughts, though.

I think because it is men typically teaching on Biblical marriage roles, the teaching is one-sided. We men find it easy to thump on men for not loving their wives by laying down their lives. We do not find it easy to chastise women for not submitting to their husbands. We are fearful we will come across as overbearing insensitive brutes. This is due to the cultural pressures; it's okay for a man to get in touch with his inner child or his feminine side, but it is not culturally acceptable for him to tell a woman God calls her to be submissive to her husband. Also, it is due to the natural disposition of men toward protecting women. But if a man is to offer Biblical instruction, he must be ready to lay aside societal pressures and personal inclinations and instruct as Paul and "not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God." (Acts 20:27 ESV)

Usually, when submission is spoken of, it is framed as a response God wants from a wife to a husband showing sacrificial loving leadership. So in essence the teaching is for Christian women to be submissive to the husband who is leading per the Bible. Only problem is submission-as-a-response is not per the Bible.

Husbands are to provide leadership and lay down their lives for their wives as Christ did for his Bride, the Church. Even for wives who refuse to act per the Bible. Wives are to accept leadership from their husbands as the Church is to accept leadership from Christ. Even for husbands who lead poorly. (Of course, for the Christian husband and wife there are limits due to God having their highest allegiance.) The husband and wife are called to be a certain way not as a response to one another, but as a response to their Lord. Here is a passage making it clear submission is not only for husbands doing as they ought:

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. (1 Peter 3:1-2 ESV)​

(Once again, there are Biblical limits to this.)

Finally, marriage is to display the grace-filled relationship between Jesus and his bride. Grace is undeserved goodness. This means I am to show goodness to my wife even when she does not deserve it and she is to show goodness toward me even when I have done something deserving her wrath and none of her goodness. Sinners marry sinners, so there is much opportunity to display grace.

W, you have drawn me into the open on a hot-button issue. If I get waylaid, I am holding you responsible!