Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[smaller]

You're not listening. Not being a sinner does not mean you don't sin as you are claiming. That is why your doctrine has no practical value.

There is no practical value whatsoever by lying, by saying our contrary to the Spirit, against the Spirit FLESH is something other than what it is, which is spelled out, precisely, as against and contrary to the Spirit.

That's where The Word draws a LINE that can't be crossed.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.



You've built it on the incorrect premise that 'not being a sinner' means you never sin. When what it means is God does not see you in your sin when you get born again. He sees you in the covering of Christ's righteousness. That is, as long as you stay in that covering through a continuing faith in Christ.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christ has not married, no, not once, not ever, flesh that is contrary to and against the Spirit. Ever. That will never happen.

News flash....yes he did:

"2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin." (2 Corinthians 11:2 NASB)

He even has come into us like a husband <gasp!> goes into his wife and deposits his seed in the hope of reproducing his image in us.

 

[smaller]

I see, so you're saying he was lying when he said we are not slaves to sin in chapter 6. Is that what you're saying?

Did Paul say he was the same as the sin that dwelled in his flesh? NO! He said, twice, that it was NO LONGER I in Romans 7:17-20.

Sin dwelling IN the flesh has a contrary against the spirit condition all of it's OWN.

No one has "obedient" sin dwelling IN the flesh. It's laughable to even make such a claim.

Obviously, smaller, he's setting the stage for the answer to the plight described in chapter 8.

Romans 8:3 condemns sin dwelling IN the flesh. There is no getting around it. Christ is factually against and contrary to the FLESH. Gal. 5:17. And Christ is SO because sin dwells IN the flesh. This is transparently simple.

Do we expect Christ to agree with sin dwelling IN the flesh? It will never happen. Not ever.

What we DO get, when we are honest, is The MERCY of God in Christ, as believers, because of this fact. Grace and Mercy are both completely unmerited on our part. We can not earn it. These are Divine Eternal Gifts that can only come from ONE Direction.

And none of that is extended to sin dwelling IN the flesh. What we are promised is SALVATION from this present state. Secure as can be. BUT not to our present body in which dwells sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The practice of Christianity is DISASSOCIATION, not DENIAL.

If the argument being made was that Christianity is about denying we still sin then you'd have a point. But as it is, that is NOT what the church asserts that we somehow need your doctrine to correct us. You're defending a doctrine that answers a problem that does not exist in the church, and worst of all causes people to think they are still slaves to sin and, therefore, have to, for example, divorce when the marriage doesn't satisfy their earthly desires and expectations, because after all, you say we're still slaves to sin and have to do that....that Christ didn't come to rescue our bodies from that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And none of that is extended to sin dwelling IN the flesh. What we are promised is SALVATION from this present state. Secure as can be. BUT not to our present body in which dwells sin.

It sounds like you are saying you have zero expectation of not sinning in any one situation. How sad if that's what you're saying.
I for one am convinced that Christ does in deed extend grace and mercy such that my body doesn't sin sometimes when tempted to. God's grace and mercy is indeed all over my flesh body when it doesn't sin.

 

[smaller]

News flash....yes he did:

"2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin." (2 Corinthians 11:2 NASB)

He even has come into us like a husband <gasp!> goes into his wife and deposits his seed in the hope of reproducing his image in us.

Read to Paul's summation. Paul gloried exactly because of the weakness of his flesh, knowing it must be CHANGED.

God is NOT interested in a lying Bride, but a CHANGED bride. That change will NOT transpire until the summation of Phil. 3:21.

1 Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

IF we are raised incorruptible. What does that make us NOW? Corruptible. There is no dodging corruptible until we are CHANGED to incorruptible.

 

[smaller]

If the argument being made was that Christianity is about denying we still sin

I don't know where you get the notion that we are never sinners to start with. Sin dwells IN the flesh. There is no getting around this. Even if sin dwelling IN the flesh is unseen, sin dwells IN the flesh.

The church can "act" however they think in order to dodge the fact. It won't dodge the fact. And it can't.

We require DIVINE CHANGE.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Read to Paul's summation. Paul gloried exactly because of the weakness of his flesh, knowing it must be CHANGED.

God is NOT interested in a lying Bride, but a CHANGED bride. That change will NOT transpire until the summation of Phil. 3:21.

1 Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

IF we are raised incorruptible. What does that make us NOW? Corruptible. There is no dodging corruptible until we are CHANGED to incorruptible.

I finally figured out a while back that what you think we believe is that we are in glorified incorruptible bodies now. That's not even remotely suggested in the church. Not even in the Catholic church I think.

Not being in those bodies yet does not mean Christ has not joined himself to these corruptible bodies and, therefore, we are still slaves to sin and must, for example, divorce a spouse for unauthorized reasons. No, Christ did indeed come to join himself to corruptible flesh so that we can serve him instead of the mind set on the flesh who we used to serve against our will....or rather, not so against our will.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know where you get the notion that we are never sinners to start with.

You don't get it because you can't hear what 'not being a sinner' actually means in the Bible. You are only able to hear it as 'I don't sin anymore', so you instantly reject it on that basis. But that is NOT what no longer being a sinner means in the Bible. But you can't, for some reason, hear the explanation. I assure you it does not mean what you insist we are saying it means.

 

[smaller]

It sounds like you are saying you have zero expectation of not sinning in any one situation. How sad if that's what you're saying.

I detest being pawned by sin in any form. Particularly by lying hypocrisy, which I personally detest the MOST.

I for one am convinced that Christ does in deed extend grace and mercy such that my body doesn't sin sometimes when tempted to. God's grace and mercy is indeed all over my flesh body when it doesn't sin.

Unlikely. I would just call that a delusion of the flesh. Scripture says this and THIS is true:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Grace and Mercy all over what the Spirit is against and contrary to? Thanks for the humor of the day.

I've run my course on this one, again. Every time I see the works salvation nonsense that some postures bring I can't help but point out the obvious.

Moving on.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace and Mercy all over what the Spirit is against and contrary to? Thanks for the humor of the day.

I'm sorry that you personally don't have God's mercy and grace bringing your flesh body into submission. I do. Not perfectly as you probably think that means. But it really does happen. But if I listen to your doctrine I have no choice but to accept that I am helpless against the desires of my flesh and have to obey it until the day it gets changed into an incorruptible body at the resurrection. It would be a joke to counsel a struggling married couple with that kind of doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Every time I see the works salvation nonsense that some postures bring I can't help but point out the obvious.

Works Salvation?
How do you get works salvation out of the truth that by the Spirit of God we are no longer slaves to sin and, therefore, don't have to sin?

 

[RevSRE]

That is absolutely NOT what I say.
That is what you hear. And that is the problem.
What I'm saying is what Paul said: We are no longer slaves to sin that we have to continue to sin against our will.

Now, answer this simple question: Are Christians slaves to sin? Yes, or no?

Jethro Bodine I vote with you you, are correct in this point.

The answer is NO NO NO!! We have a choice to serve God or not !!!

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

First question—Is the law sin? 7-12.
7. Is the law sin?—In thus making deliverance from law the Christian principle, do you identify the law as sin? Not only as satisfying the sensitive Jew, but as a neutralizer of all antinomianism, (which abolishes obligation to holiness,) the apostle must honour the divine law.
Had not known sin—So far from being sin, the law is the detecter of sin, revealing its existence and odiousness to the moral consciousness of the unreflecting sinner.

Second question, and answer—The law not made death to me, Rom_7:13-25.
It is now demanded whether by this narrative (Rom_7:8-12) it is to be understood that this holy thing, the law, is responsible for his death. The answer is, By no manner of means. And to show this he goes over the same story again of Rom_7:8-12, with fuller particulars, so stated as to show that it was sin, not law, that formed for him the body of this death above described in Rom_7:11. From this it is plain, and must be specially noted, that Rom_7:13-25 narrates the same period an Rom_7:8-12. And this is a very important fact, as we shall now show.
It has for ages been debated whether Rom_7:13-25 described the case of an unregenerate or regenerate man. For the first three centuries the entire Christian Church with one accord applied it solely to the unregenerate man. It seemed too low a moral picture for a possessor of a new Christian life, as the apostle in the main current of thought is describing. Its application to the regenerate man was first invented by Augustine, who was followed by many eminent doctors of the Middle Ages. After the Reformation the interpretation by Augustine was largely adopted, especially by the followers of Calvin.
At the present day the Church generally, Greek, Roman, Protestant, including some of the latest commentators, have returned to the just interpretation as held by the primitive Church. Whedon e-sword commentary

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 15:35 KJV
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

This was not written as a complete explanation (which I can not give), but to show the complexity of what is sown in men's hearts. With its ins and outs with the final resurrection can be pretty deep. I tend to have my thoughts, but right here may not be the time to try and get through them.

backwoods redneck
eddif

 

[Hospes]

Chopper, to work through Matthew on a forum must be akin to herding cats.
Ya! Git along, kitty!

 

[brother Paul]

Yes! What is our nxt section

Matthew 19
And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;

2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

[brother Paul]

Has anyone heard of the schools of Shamai and Hillel? Prior to Jesus being born the P'rushim (Pharisees) had divided over the Halacha (teaching traditions) of two main Rabbis...SHamai was strongly for justice believing all should listen to him....Hillel taught that God's mercy and grace always tempered His justice...

Regarding divorce Shamai's followers taught and believed a man could divorce his wife simply for not salting his food correctly....Hillel taught the only reason was definite proven adultery....(a view Jesus apparently agreed with)....and that if reconciliation were possible and the heart could forgive a repentant then no divorce should be expected.,.,..

Apparently Jesus is telling them their hearts were too hard to give forgiveness of grace////

 

[eddif]

Has anyone heard of the schools of Shamai and Hillel? Prior to Jesus being born the P'rushim (Pharisees) had divided over the Halacha (teaching traditions) of two main Rabbis...SHamai was strongly for justice believing all should listen to him....Hillel taught that God's mercy and grace always tempered His justice...

Regarding divorce Shamai's followers taught and believed a man could divorce his wife simply for not salting his food correctly....Hillel taught the only reason was definite proven adultery....(a view Jesus apparently agreed with)....and that if reconciliation were possible and the heart could forgive a repentant then no divorce should be expected.,.,..

Apparently Jesus is telling them their hearts were too hard to give forgiveness of grace////

James 2:13 KJV
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

eddif

 

[brother Paul]

James 2:13 KJV
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

eddif

Eddif...I see this as saying that there shall be no mercy for those that show no mercy and that mercy tempers judgment....do you agree?

 

[eddif]

Eddif...I see this as saying that there shall be no mercy for those that show no mercy and that mercy tempers judgment....do you agree?

In one sense I am going to dodge the question. I strive towards a lot.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I do not want to appear as having gotten beyond where I am. With my mind I swing from chandeliers, but the body serves the law of sin.

eddif