Bible Study WELCOME TO AN IN DEPTH STUDY OF MATTHEW'S GOSPEL.

[brother Paul]

So what do you think eddif? Should a man be able to put away his wife for any reason? Were they reflecting a cultural norm (the women having no such rights under any circumstance)? Were they testing Him to see what Pharisaic school of thought He was closer to? Was it spiritual metaphor for Christ and the church?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this section?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So what do you think eddif? Should a man be able to put away his wife for any reason? Were they reflecting a cultural norm (the women having no such rights under any circumstance)? Were they testing Him to see what Pharisaic school of thought He was closer to? Was it spiritual metaphor for Christ and the church?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this section?

We've been bantering over this particular part of the passage here: http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-issue-of-divorce-wrong-interpretation.63555/

Christ is definitely setting the record straight as to what circumstances allow a person to divorce. There's really no compelling reason to look for secret loopholes that make it so Christ does not mean exactly what he is saying, IMO.

 

[brother Paul]

What if your partner is continually beating up the other or the children, breaking bones and the like????? Must one stay? Classiks example is right....divorce or leave them and stay unmarried to another unless this unbeliever dies

 

[GodsGrace]

In one sense I am going to dodge the question. I strive towards a lot.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I do not want to appear as having gotten beyond where I am. With my mind I swing from chandeliers, but the body serves the law of sin.

eddif

In your post 1658 you seem to be saying that God's justice will be tempered with mercy.
Up above you dodge the question because you're swinging from a chandelier between, maybe, what you ideally believe and what might be practical.
Brother Paul says Jesus agreed with Hillel and that there were no grounds for divorce other than adultery.
Jethro Bodine is asking why we can't just live alone since we have the comfort of God.
Classik in the other thread has it all figured out: She said one could get divorced but then will live a celibate life forever until death. I'm hoping she's 83 and not 33.
What a confusion!

God said man is not meant to live alone. He made him a helpmate. The two become one flesh. When one gets married, God is present as a witness. It's a covenant. Covenants can't be broken. Then, for some reason or other (besides adultery) this covenant with God is broken. One leaves but the other does not. However, in God's eyes the marriage still exists. So does the spouse who didn't leave also have the same burden of remaining alone forever because he/she was abandoned? Is it as easy as Jethro seems to think to be alone? Maybe he's stronger than most of us? Can a divorce not be put under the blood? Is there no forgiveness?

Not to be misunderstood - I think divorce is terrible for many reasons. But it takes two to get along. Chopper said most couples seeking counselling end up getting divorced. I'm pretty sure at least one of them did NOT want this divorce. We're living in a world that is almost totally secularized - God is removed from everything. Religion is to be left for Sundays and not to be carried around with us. If marriage was understood to be as important AS IT IS, nobody would even consider it. Why do we consider it? Because satan has infected everything. He gets into our feelings and makes us feel alone and far from God's comfort, he opens the door to believing that marriage is just a relationship that could be broken and replaced, this is accepted by most. His methods are savvy and now here we are with all these questions. He's made us proud and selfish and egotistical - the most important person alive is ME - not our husband and not our children. The poor children. What a mess. For lack of following God's laws.

Let me stop...

W

 

[brother Paul]

1 Corinthians 7 -
10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord):If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy;">

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What if your partner is continually beating up the other or the children, breaking bones and the like????? Must one stay? Classiks example is right....divorce or leave them and stay unmarried to another unless this unbeliever dies

...or leave the abuser and stay unmarried until the abuser commits adultery or divorces you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it as easy as Jethro seems to think to be alone? Maybe he's stronger than most of us?

No, I'm confident it's not easy at all. I don't find it especially easy to live 'alone' in my marriage. But I definitely don't see how divorce is the answer for my distress. God gives grace to keep his commands.

Can a divorce not be put under the blood? Is there no forgiveness?

Are you suggesting that one can get a divorce in a difficult situation that God does not approve divorce for hoping they are just going to claim the blood of Christ for the offense later on? I hope not. I think they're rolling the dice if a person is planning on getting God's forgiveness ahead of time for a divorce that God does not sanction. But I suppose the person has to make that kind of decision themselves. I'm offering no advice outside of what I just said.

Why do we consider it (divorce)?

Because a little leaven works through the whole batch.
When we see couple after couple getting divorces for reasons other than adultery more and more couples are desensitized to the sin of doing it too.

Because satan has infected everything. He gets into our feelings and makes us feel alone and far from God's comfort

Certainly true. Other people getting divorces only fuels those feelings.

e opens the door to believing that marriage is just a relationship that could be broken and replaced, this is accepted by most. His methods are savvy and now here we are with all these questions. He's made us proud and selfish and egotistical - the most important person alive is ME - not our husband and not our children. The poor children. What a mess. For lack of following God's laws.

You're right. It's a hard pill to swallow but 'self' is at the root of the desire to divorce in cases where adultery nor abandonment has occurred. In our overly sexualized and romanticized Western society we can hardly fathom life without the joys and privileges of married life. From childhood up we are bombarded with songs and movies and TV shows about sex, sex, sex, and romance, as if nothing else matters as much as that in all of life.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, I'm confident it's not easy at all. I don't find it especially easy to live 'alone' in my marriage. But I definitely don't see how divorce is the answer for my distress. God gives grace to keep his commands.

Are you suggesting that one can get a divorce in a difficult situation that God does not approve divorce for hoping they are just going to claim the blood of Christ for the offense later on? I hope not. I think they're rolling the dice if a person is planning on getting God's forgiveness ahead of time for a divorce that God does not sanction. But I suppose the person has to make that kind of decision themselves. I'm offering no advice outside of what I just said.

Because a little leaven works through the whole batch.
When we see couple after couple getting divorces for reasons other than adultery more and more couples are desensitized to the sin of doing it too.

Certainly true. Other people getting divorces only fuels those feelings.

You're right. It's a hard pill to swallow but 'self' is at the root of the desire to divorce in cases where adultery nor abandonment has occurred. In our overly sexualized and romanticized Western society we can hardly fathom life without the joys and privileges of married life. From childhood up we are bombarded with songs and movies and TV shows about sex, sex, sex, and romance, as if nothing else matters as much as that in all of life.

We agree on all of this, as I noticed from the other thread.
What I was getting at is your second paragraph.
I'm not suggesting pre-planning a divorce. God will not be made a fool of.

But I have a couple of friends who were left by the husband. One because he wanted to live in Rome where they married and she wanted to stay up here with her family. So he decided to move back down there and left her and a 10 yr old boy. What is she supposed to do? Stay alone all her life? This type of situation is what I find very troubling. HE is going to cause HER to commit adultery. I believe she would be forgiven if she got remarried and it could be placed under the blood of Christ. Don't you?? Forgiveness has to be in there somewhere, as I said in the divorce thread.

W

 

[Chopper]

First of all, I'm no expert on the topic of marriage and divorce. Married couples have changed tremendously in the 50+ years that I've been involved in studying the conflicts in marriage that could lead to a divorce. I'd say, IMO, in these modern times that we live as strangers and pilgrims in this amoral society, it's a mess!

In such a society, marriage has become a useless word and institution. Today, there are many people who don't bother with marriage, they just live together out of the bond of marriage. There are actually Christians who believe it is better just to live with each other to see if they can live the rest of their lives in the bond & law of marriage. To many Christians who will "just escape the flame" sounds like a very wise way to approach to marriage. Problem is, in the eyes of God, it's wrong!

Jethro Bodine has presented the rightful Christian perspective on the marriage and divorce question. In the times in which we see ourselves, it's too harsh and unreasonable according to many Christians. Lets look at a few Scriptures to see if there is a plan that will work in light of the Scriptures to loosen the grip on first Century marriage and divorce theology.

,Lets go to step one, lets look at what Jesus taught....
Matthew 19:1 "Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan.
19:2 And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
19:3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" Now, this is what is happening in our little world today. People, and even Christians are divorcing "for any cause." So, what's the answer?

19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
19:5 and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."
19:7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"
19:8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so....This same hardness is in the men of today.

Also the answer is, we are not living in the First Century when Christians were Christians in the pure meaning of the word. They, I believe, took marriage very seriously and divorce was simply not an option. BUT, it didn't take Satan very long to infiltrate the Christian mindset and pollute the real meaning of marriage.

Lets go to step two. First Century men were hardening their hearts toward marriage and not treating their wives in a Scriptural manner. Thus the Apostle Paul gave solid instruction in how husbands and wives were to treat each other in the home. Lets look at that instruction in the Epistle of Ephesians....
Ephesians 5:22 "Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.
5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
5:27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
5:28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
5:29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church,
5:30 because we are members of his body.
5:31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
5:32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.
5:33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband."

As we all know, the woman's liberation movement set in, modern men were taking their "change of life" to extremes as a counter measure to the woman's liberation and so on, and so on it goes. Satan has almost been successful in destroying the family unit and bond.

Lets go to step three. When dealing with marriage, we have to consider that there is such a thing called the "Law of Marriage." lets look at....
Romans 7:1 "Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
7:2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage."

Paul ultimately was teaching that our old man (before we were saved) had to die in order to live for and be saved in Jesus the Son of God. So there is a duel meaning here, one for marriage and the other for Salvation. We are concerned with marriage. I want to zero in on one verse that is critical to understand marriage and divorce for us now in modern times.

That one verse is....1Corinthians 7:15 "But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace."....Notice that the Brother or Sister is our example. We will look at several words that are important.

First word is ENSLAVED (ESV) BONDAGE (KJV) Which ever word is used, it means not required by law to keep. Therefore, the law of marriage in null & void. So, the Brother or Sister is not held to a marriage in which the next word is violated. That word is PEACE. In both the KJV or the ESV, the word is peace. Peace according to Strong's is quietness or rest. Abuse to the married partner or children is a clear violation to peace and rest. Divorce may be the only way to stop the abuse if proper counseling does not work.

In the Christian home and marriage, the Scriptures are very clear. Ephesians 5:22-33 is how God Almighty wants marriage to happen. Not only for Husband and Wife, but for the Children as well. Peaceful and a place that's easy to rest. Marriage counseling is for the couple who are having serious conflicts. God wants those conflicts solved, period!! If a couple separates, which I never recommend, the couple is to be reconciled, period!!

If the couple must divorce, lets get this straight, IT IS A SERIOUS SIN. Unfortunately, the children are the ones who suffer the most. Both families of the divorced couple suffer as well. Divorce is to be NOT AN OPTION for any Christian couple. But many do.

Now, what about this sin of divorce. There is no sin that God does not forgive. There is no forgiveness for attributing the work of Christ Jesus to the devil and obviously refusing to believe by faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin and Salvation. Since the sin of divorce is forgiven by God, it is gone, GONE!! Therefore they are free to remarry. Before God, the divorce never happened, get that straight, forgiven sin as far as God is concerned, if He forgave it, it doesn't exist, it's gone. Man is the one who keeps remembering the sin of divorce, God doesn't.

 

[Malachi]

But I have a couple of friends who were left by the husband. One because he wanted to live in Rome where they married and she wanted to stay up here with her family. So he decided to move back down there and left her and a 10 yr old boy. What is she supposed to do?

This reason makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. "He wanted to live in Rome" is the same as saying he wanted to live in Wonderland. There was something deeper going on here, and unless someone would sit down and unearth the underlying SPIRITUAL ISSUES, there would be no point in asking "What was she supposed to do?" And is it possible that she was a contributing factor?

All marital issues -- indeed all relational issues -- are at bottom spiritual issues. But counsellors and advisers seem to skirt around the real issues, and address only the symptoms. That is a lot more comfortable, because the real issues are sin and repentance issues. Hence there are far more divorces than there should be, and divorce among Christians has become commonplace.

Christ always went to the heart of the matter. A good example is how He dealt with the Samaritan woman. Christians should be following His example.

 

[Malachi]

Now, what about this sin of divorce. There is no sin that God does not forgive.

It is not just the sin of divorce, but the sin of remarriage in an unlawful (for Christians) divorce, and the subsequent ongoing adulterous relationship. So while there is no sin that God does not forgive, the conditions for forgiveness are confession and repentance (turning away from sin).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

he decided to move back down there and left her and a 10 yr old boy. What is she supposed to do? Stay alone all her life?

No. Paul says she is not bound to a spouse who abandons her.

"...if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases..." (1 Corinthians 7:15 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This reason makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. "He wanted to live in Rome" is the same as saying he wanted to live in Wonderland. There was something deeper going on here

I was thinking the same thing.
Ultimately, we would have to know all the details to know whether or not this woman is justified in divorcing her husband for leaving to live away from the family.

 

[eddif]

Ephesians 5:31 KJV
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

When we study shadows, types, parables, etc., we must put the reality that casts the shadow into the study. I still say that Jesus and his relationship with the church is the body that casts symbolism concerning physical human marriage. The ultimate reality is Christ and the Church.


There are physical realities, but the spiritual realities drove the physical realities that were created by God.

I Corinthians 9:9 KJV
For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Not everyone goes beyond Jordan, and all of Israel is saved. You do not have to understand all concepts, but the concepts are there.

eddif

 

[Hospes]

When one gets married, God is present as a witness. It's a covenant. Covenants can't be broken. Then, for some reason or other (besides adultery) this covenant with God is broken. One leaves but the other does not. However, in God's eyes the marriage still exists. So does the spouse who didn't leave also have the same burden of remaining alone forever because he/she was abandoned?

Hi W.

Jesus said "what God has joined together..." This is why I believe God is not just a witness, but the actual "doer" of a marriage. When it comes to the burden of celibacy, I think God calls many to carry - by his grace - burdens. Therefore, carrying/avoiding a burden is not an indication of what his will may be. I know it was probably just a slip of the pen, but you used the word "forever" and thus I am given the opportunity to step upon another soap box.

Marriage is an earthly display of a heavenly truth. Marriage nor celibacy is forever for the Elect. The forever marriage is when Jesus takes us as his bride. Marriage on earth is the humming of the simple broken melody of the symphony we will have as the bride of our Lord. When that day happens, we will see the momentary burden of celibacy - along with any other burden - as a trifle in light of the glories of our eternity.

 

[Chopper]

It is not just the sin of divorce, but the sin of remarriage in an unlawful (for Christians) divorce, and the subsequent ongoing adulterous relationship. So while there is no sin that God does not forgive, the conditions for forgiveness are confession and repentance (turning away from sin).

I hear what you're saying friend. I'm convinced that we as a whole do not understand how God forgives and how He treats the sin that He forgives and how He treats the person that He has forgiven.

Lets look at Wondering's example of a man who deserts his wife and moves to Rome. I assume they had some sort of counseling. He leaves anyway, his wife & child. What is she to do? Divorce the looser! He probably wasn't a Christian anyway. Now. Lets look at this sin of divorce. Lets call the woman Jane.

Jane gets a divorce of which she did not want. She pleaded with the Lord to change her husbands mind. After he left, he intended not to return. In effect, the marriage is dead.

Jane goes to the Lord in prayer, knowing full well that divorce is a sin and she initiated it. She asks God to forgive her sin of divorce and her repentance is that if she ever remarries, no matter what, she will never initiate a divorce. Forgiveness and repentance for Jane has happened.

God accepts Jane's forgiveness for divorce and accepts her repentance, and will hold her to her promise. Now the question comes, where is the sin that God has forgiven.....Isaiah 43:25 "I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins."

Jeremiah 31:34 "And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Hebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

The word remember, according to Strong's definition is....
zâkar
zaw-kar'
A primitive root; properly to mark (so as to be recognized), that is, to remember; by implication to mention; (make) mention (of), be mindful, recount, record (-er), remember, make to be remembered, bring (call, come, keep, put) to (in) remembrance, X still, think on, X well.
Total KJV occurrences: 231

As we can see, once God's legal system of forgiveness is activated, (our God is the Judge) That sin of divorce is gone, in the mind of the Judge, Almighty God. So now, in the eyes of other Christians, usually those who have never divorced, They do remember Jane's divorce and judge her as a result.

Look how foolish and sinful people who keep bringing up the sin of divorce that Jane committed, and act as a judge demoting her in the eyes of fellow Christians. She now feels like a second class Christian. So where's the sin now? It certainly isn't with Jane, it's with the people who remember what God has, in His judicial system, classified as not to be brought up ever again.

I hardly ever use the NIV translation. In this case, I like the rendering of 1 Corinthians 13:5b. Speaking about love "It keeps no record of wrongs." There ya go! But folk go around accusing divorced people as being sinners when all the time the Scriptures are totally ignored.

SO what's the problem as I see it? People who think that people like Jane are under condemnation for divorcing her husband who deserted her and their child. Guess what? The people who condemn what God has forgiven, are in the wrong and need to go back to the Scriptures and re-study this whole matter of proper forgiveness and how to respond to someone who has been forgiven by the Judge of all mankind, Almighty YHWH.

 

[smaller]

I hardly ever use the NIV translation. In this case, I like the rendering of 1 Corinthians 13:5b. Speaking about love "It keeps no record of wrongs." There ya go!

If you got that much out of the entire Bible, you will have done WELL Chopper.

 

[Chopper]

If you got that much out of the entire Bible, you will have done WELL Chopper.

O my friend, if we could only remember this absolute Truth....Sorry girls, but especially women who, it seams, never forget a wrong that their husbands do.

 

[eddif]

We are all the same in Christ Jesus.

eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

O my friend, if we could only remember this absolute Truth....Sorry girls, but especially women who, it seams, never forget a wrong that their husbands do.

Eddif says we're all the same in Christ Jesus.
I have to agree with you on this one Chopper. Men seem to be more like ducks - the water slides off their back. They forget hurts quicker, they forget arguments quicker. Women hold on more. Remember better. I noticed this many years ago and it keeps getting confirmed by many. There must be a reason - interesting. I'll bet you have some ideas... Tying into Mathew, could this have anything to do with the high rate of divorce? In my experience it seems to be the male that wants to leave. Maybe because the wives can't forget!!??

W
your post no. 1669 is great!