Well, they did it...

[handy]

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America voted last week to implement it's statement on Human Sexuality and voted to accept open and active homosexuals as ordained and rostered members as well as to accept homosexual marriage and find a way to officially recognize same sex unions. :gah

Please pray for my own family and church as we go through this difficult time. It really hits home in our family as Steve and I sit on the opposite side of the fence of his mom and dad on this issue and we all attend the same church. Steve is struggling now as to what to do. I saw the handwriting on the wall on this issue long before we became members of this church, but I also see that God had His reasons for leading us there. It had truly strengthened Steve to be there, but now I pray that God will lead us onward.

I know we have gays and lesbians (well at least gays that I know of) that fellowship here at christianforums.net and I want to be clear that I'm not on the whole "God hates Gays" bandwagon. I believe that gays are sinners in need of a Savior, just as we all are. My problem with this whole thing, and it's a major problem is that the ELCA has chosen to not only ignore the clear teaching of God's Word, but even their own statement of what they believe about God's word. This is shipwreck, my friends and no good will come of it. It isn't helping anyone caught up in a web of sin to simply tell them, hey, it's not sinning. That might work if we worshipped a god of our own making. But, as Hebrews tells us, it's a terrible thing to be in the hands of the living God. That is because we don't get to make up what He likes and doesn't like. We are the clay, He is the potter. And, He will not be mocked.

In what may very well be a clear sign that God will not be mocked, the Minneapolis Convention Center where the Assembly was taking place was hit by a freak tornado. God is merciful and no one at the center or at the hosting church were hurt.

Here is a report on the tornado:

Firefighters report tornado

National Weather Service meteorologists are working to confirm the tornado reports. A number of trained NWS storm spotters reported seeing rotation prior to what Minneapolis firefighters have characterized as a tornado touchdown.

Storm came out of nowhere

No sirens sounded and no tornado warnings were issued in the city before the storm hit. Rain had been falling most of the day in the Twin Cities metro, but the storm came as a major surprise to everyone in the area.

And, here is a picture of Central Lutheran Church which was hosting a breakfast for Assembly delegates. In this case I do think that a picture is worth a thousand words:

 

[lovely]

Sorry to read this, and I am sorry for those who will be led astray. My prayers for your family, and church, Dora.

 

[Rick W]

Some see this issue as division of the church. I don't believe it's division but God sifting His wheat.

 

[kenmaynard]

Some see this issue as division of the church. I don't believe it's division but God sifting His wheat.

Do you assume that you are the good wheat?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Why is it that no one complains when Fat people attend church or are accepted as clergy? They are sinning and being worldly in their enjoyment in food. They are purposely hurting their bodies and even encourage others to partake in their lifestyle choice by being in a place of power. They can change if they give themselves up to God and work for it.

Why aren't they receiving the same treatment?

 

[handy]

Why is it that no one complains when Fat people attend church or are accepted as clergy? They are sinning and being worldly in their enjoyment in food. They are purposely hurting their bodies and even encourage others to partake in their lifestyle choice by being in a place of power. They can change if they give themselves up to God and work for it.

Why aren't they receiving the same treatment?

I believe this is where Bill O'Reilly would say that you cannot justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. My mom usually put it more succinctly: two wrongs don't make a right.

Yes, gluttony is a sin. However, there are some things to consider about fat people. Not all fat people are gluttons. I happen to be fat. I also eat less than my husband and either of my kids. I walk, garden, or do some other kind of exercise everyday. I keep my blood pressure, cholesterol levels and sugar levels under control. I take medication for thyroid disease every day. Nonetheless, I'm still fat. Sure, people can (and often do) judge me and take it for granted that I just sit around all day and eat bon bons. And, yes, that can hurt. It does hurt to be unfairly judged. Or painted with a broad brush, that I somehow am a sinner, when I agree that gluttony is a sin and try to avoid it.

Besides, not all gluttons are fat. I happen to know some folks that can eat a ton of food and not gain an ounce. I'm related to some of them, s'matter of fact and around the holidays, it's really apparent.

The thing is, while I do know that the Bible condemns gluttony as a sin, it doesn't automatically condemn all fat people as sinners. Perhaps because God knows that the state of being fat and the sin of gluttony are two different things.

However, with gluttony and with homosexuality, the word of God is clear: these are sins. They are what drove Christ to the cross for us. And, His having paid so high a price for our forgiveness, we are not to take His grace as a license to go out and revel and rejoice in sin.

Used to be that gluttony was reveled in and homosexuality was shameful. Now, it's pretty much the other way around. Doesn't matter though because God tells us that both are sinful and are to be avoided.

Which isn't the fundamental problem with the ELCA anyway. The fundamental problem with the ELCA is that they have decided that political correctness is more important that God's word on this issue. What God has called sin, they are saying is not.

 

[handy]

Some see this issue as division of the church. I don't believe it's division but God sifting His wheat.

Do you assume that you are the good wheat?

I would say that "the good wheat" are those who hear God's commandments and obey them.

Listen folks, we can make up what we want to about God. People do it all the time, all over the world and have done so, ever since time began. We can decide that we have a woman god, a gay god, a god which is a cow that has the head of a lion if we want to.

But, the ELCA claims that "-The proclamation of God's message to us as both Law and Gospel is the Word of God, revealing judgment and mercy through word and deed, beginning with the Word in creation, continuing in the history of Israel, and centering in all its fullness in the person and work of Jesus Christ.
- The canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the written Word of God. Inspired by God's Spirit speaking through their authors, they record and announce God's revelation centering in Jesus Christ. Through them God's Spirit speaks to us to create and sustain Christian faith and fellowship for service in the world." (copy/past from the ELCA confession of faith) and then they put forth that the God of the canonical Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments doesn't find homosexuality abhorrent. This is hypocritical in the worst possible way, worst possible because it does indeed lead so many astray.

Whatever Hindu's or Muslim's or Buddhist's want to make up about their gods doesn't matter to me in the least. It will be up to God to judge their ignorance upon Judgment Day, as to whether or not they listened for His invisible attributes or followed their own sinful natures. I pray for them, and do what I can to spread the Gospel so that as many that can, can worship God in deed and in truth, rather than in ignorance, but as for a devout Muslim woman who lives in a nation like Afghanistan, is denied the right to read and study even the texts of her own religion, yet who tries her best to worship the only god she knows, that one I leave in God's hands.

However, a church which claims to uphold the Scriptures as God's message to us, and then denies that the Scriptures say what they say, is at best misguided, at worst lying.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Why is it that no one complains when Fat people attend church or are accepted as clergy? They are sinning and being worldly in their enjoyment in food. They are purposely hurting their bodies and even encourage others to partake in their lifestyle choice by being in a place of power. They can change if they give themselves up to God and work for it.

Why aren't they receiving the same treatment?

I believe this is where Bill O'Reilly would say that you cannot justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. My mom usually put it more succinctly: two wrongs don't make a right.

Yeah you can its called Hypocrisy. Lessening one sin but jumping on another is hypocrisy and cherry picking

.

Yes, gluttony is a sin. However, there are some things to consider about fat people. Not all fat people are gluttons. I happen to be fat. I also eat less than my husband and either of my kids. I walk, garden, or do some other kind of exercise everyday. I keep my blood pressure, cholesterol levels and sugar levels under control. I take medication for thyroid disease every day. Nonetheless, I'm still fat. Sure, people can (and often do) judge me and take it for granted that I just sit around all day and eat bon bons. And, yes, that can hurt. It does hurt to be unfairly judged. Or painted with a broad brush, that I somehow am a sinner, when I agree that gluttony is a sin and try to avoid it.

Wait, did you just try and say that you have no choice in the matter? You said its a base by base thing, and not all fat people are sinners? Sounds a little familiar to me, like something I said along the line of homosexuals.

Besides, not all gluttons are fat. I happen to know some folks that can eat a ton of food and not gain an ounce. I'm related to some of them, s'matter of fact and around the holidays, it's really apparent.

Not all homosexuals are nymphoids that jump on everyone who passes by.

The thing is, while I do know that the Bible condemns gluttony as a sin, it doesn't automatically condemn all fat people as sinners. Perhaps because God knows that the state of being fat and the sin of gluttony are two different things.

Seems like someone is trying to twist the scripture to help comfert them.

However, with gluttony and with homosexuality, the word of God is clear: these are sins. They are what drove Christ to the cross for us. And, His having paid so high a price for our forgiveness, we are not to take His grace as a license to go out and revel and rejoice in sin.

Yet we still maek excuses to do so, and can find backing in our communities likewise.

Used to be that gluttony was reveled in and homosexuality was shameful. Now, it's pretty much the other way around. Doesn't matter though because God tells us that both are sinful and are to be avoided.

Homosexuality is still shamefull and far from a social acceptance. Fat people aren't as harrassed as they where. There are more fat people in the US then there ever was.

Which isn't the fundamental problem with the ELCA anyway. The fundamental problem with the ELCA is that they have decided that political correctness is more important that God's word on this issue. What God has called sin, they are saying is not.

The Catholic Church ( the first large Christian Church) has been doing that since its beginning. This is far from new Handy.


I'm not attacking you Handy. I am just trying to shed light on an issue that allot of Americans stream right over. half the arguments you gave are the same arguments used by homosexuals. Think about it for a minute. ;)

If you are uncomfortable with homosexuality that's ok. Not everyone is going to be okay with it. All I ask is maybe try and see it through our eyes for a minute.

 

[handy]

Lance, you are trying to equate being fat with sin, when the Bible states that gluttony is the sin, not the weight of a person.

However, the Bible is clear that any sex outside of a man and a woman who are married to each other is sin. And, to make it quite clear, homosexual sex is specifically called sin in both the old and new testament.

Maybe I can make this clear by saying it this way: I don't think there is any place in the scriptures where sexual orientation is called sin. The closest I can find is the whole "burning in their desire for one another". But, that is lust and lust is sin whether it's a man burning in lust for a man or for a woman. Lust is sin, so is any sexual act, homosexual included, outside of marriage between a man and woman. Being sexually orientated towards the same-sex though, I can't find that that is sin. Just as I can't find that being fat is sin, yet gluttony clearly is. So, one can be oriented towards the same sex, and exercise self-control over one's sexual activity and not sin. One can also be fat, and exercise self-control over one's eating habits and not sin as well.

The problem comes when the church, which is to uphold God's standards, starts to say that what the Scriptures call sin, isn't.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Handy, are you suggesting it is possible to be naturally inclined toward one gender over another? There is not one study that proves homosexuality is genetic. I've done the research and I think you would be hard pressed to find anything more than penguins and speculation to support a genetic, natural link to homosexuality.

 

[handy]

Bones, I know this sounds so cliche' but it's also happens to be quite true that a very close friend of mine has been oriented to the same sex since as long as he can remember. He comes from a strong Christian family, wasn't abused in any way as a kid, wasn't brainwashed or anything like that, and yet, from the time he was old enough to be able to do so, he tried wearing his sister's clothes and underwear, and liked boys instead of girls. Nobody "taught" him this, nobody "introduced" him to these concepts, he just has always been this way. I know this, not only from his own sharing with me, but also from the fact that his mom and older sister talked to me (with his permission) about it as well. I was one of the few people who knew this about him and how much of a struggle it was with him.

However, he was also a very strong Christian and took every though captive as it were. He resisted the temptation to enter into active homosexuality. Instead of condemning him, his family support him in seeking after God's will. He did marry a woman, who knows all about this part of him, and together they deal with it as a couple. Except in matters of lust of the flesh, which face it, we all deal with that, I don't believe he has ever once sinned in this matter before God. And, he certainly has never justified it or tried to act as though the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality.

Lance has a justifiable gripe here, one that I can agree with: In most other matters of sin, we separate temptation from sin. We go on and on about how all are tempted, but that we must stand firm as we are tempted and look to God for the way of escape and rejoice when we gain victory over temptation.

Except when it comes to same-sex orientation. With this, we equate the temptation with the sin. Just to be tempted in this area is condemned as being abhorrent. I cannot find that this is a Scriptural stand at all. In each of the texts which deals with homosexuality, the text is clear that it is the behavior that is sin. I've yet to come across any text that equates the temptation to the behavior as sinful.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Handy, are you suggesting it is possible to be naturally inclined toward one gender over another? There is not one study that proves homosexuality is genetic. I've done the research and I think you would be hard pressed to find anything more than penguins and speculation to support a genetic, natural link to homosexuality.

You once told me not to talk about interpretation because I haven't done much study into it. Now I likewise ask you not to stumble into the realms of sexuality and psychology which are my areas of Study. Just because there is no "gene" for it, doesn't mean there isn't a natural ocerance for such behavior.

 

[Blazin Bones]

If you'll read my post you see that I too have "done the research" in regards to homosexuality. In all cases, every time a genetic link is "found" it is later repealed. If you are asserting that psychological patterns or tendencies are the result of natural, uncontrolable circumstances, than I would beg to differ. I do believe that you may be more studied than I am in Psyhology, but that doesn't prove the case of natural homosexuality. Psychology is not so much a science of facts as genetics is.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Bones, I know this sounds so cliche' but it's also happens to be quite true that a very close friend of mine has been oriented to the same sex since as long as he can remember. He comes from a strong Christian family, wasn't abused in any way as a kid, wasn't brainwashed or anything like that, and yet, from the time he was old enough to be able to do so, he tried wearing his sister's clothes and underwear, and liked boys instead of girls. Nobody "taught" him this, nobody "introduced" him to these concepts, he just has always been this way. I know this, not only from his own sharing with me, but also from the fact that his mom and older sister talked to me (with his permission) about it as well. I was one of the few people who knew this about him and how much of a struggle it was with him.

However, he was also a very strong Christian and took every though captive as it were. He resisted the temptation to enter into active homosexuality. Instead of condemning him, his family support him in seeking after God's will. He did marry a woman, who knows all about this part of him, and together they deal with it as a couple. Except in matters of lust of the flesh, which face it, we all deal with that, I don't believe he has ever once sinned in this matter before God. And, he certainly has never justified it or tried to act as though the Bible doesn't condemn homosexuality.

Lance has a justifiable gripe here, one that I can agree with: In most other matters of sin, we separate temptation from sin. We go on and on about how all are tempted, but that we must stand firm as we are tempted and look to God for the way of escape and rejoice when we gain victory over temptation.

Except when it comes to same-sex orientation. With this, we equate the temptation with the sin. Just to be tempted in this area is condemned as being abhorrent. I cannot find that this is a Scriptural stand at all. In each of the texts which deals with homosexuality, the text is clear that it is the behavior that is sin. I've yet to come across any text that equates the temptation to the behavior as sinful.

I'm seeing a bit of a mis-eqivocation here. So he has preferences toward women's clothing and prefers the companionship of men over women, since when did this make a person homosexual? You are right in that these behaviors make it easier to fall into the active sin of homosexuality, but neither make this person homosexual in the least.

Handy, I also have a close friend with a similar story and he will never once say that this makes him homosexual. It means what he likes and enjoys are not typical for a guy. Some accuse men who are sensative to feelings or who have more airy personalities of being homosexual as well, but this is not the case in the slightest. What they are, is simply not the cookie cutter

A homosexual is a person who willfully participates or seeks to partipate in sexual relations with a person of their own gender. Your friend and mine both have not made that choice. The proplem is that so many people have allowed certain traits to become associated or attached to this personal choice that we've created a false idea of what homosexuality really is. The only real trait of a person living out homosexuality is the willful engaging in or pursuit of same sex, sexual relations.

Are some christians quick to single out people who call themselve homosexuals and to shun and condemn them? Yes, there are certainly plenty of examples as I am sure lance could inform us. However, homosexuality is not a "natural occurance" or we make Romans 1:26 and 27 are wrong, making God's word flawed.

 

[Vic C.]

Folks, this is a serious issue, not just for the Evangelical Lutherans but for the Episcopal church and any other church who ventures into these uncharted waters. Whether some of you like it or not is irrelevant; it goes against the natural order of things set in motion by God Himself! It is a sin and on a personal level, it must be addressed as such.

But on an overall cultural level, it needs to be addressed on the grounds of ethics. Being politically correct on such an issue may feel good for some of you who are looking for any reason to rationalize and justify homosexual acts, but that doesn't not make it any less wrong. If this offends anyone, well, sorry!

ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT... every one of us in one form or another. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, we do see some sins as more damaging than others and that's probably by design. Yes, I too see homosexuality as a graver sin than say, gluttony or even adultery. I have had friends earlier on that were gay and lost their lives in a not so humane fashion to STDs like HIV. I have seen where bisexual lifestyles have caused the heterosexual spouses to also get infected. I have seen a wholesome family oriented lifestyle go to pieces because sexual promiscuity, including same sex promiscuity, has invaded our TV shows, pop news, music, music videos, CHURCHES, etc.

It leaves a vapor trail in it's midst that was once past of what was so great about this nation and the moralities it once held. So go ahead and feel good as you all wallow in your sin and pretend you're immune from it's effects. :verysad

 

[animal]

How many of you are friends with a gay person or would be willing to have a friendly relationship with a gay person? Just curious. And for the record we're all "sinners" right?

 

[jasoncran]

to be tempted isnt sin in the area of the gay lifestyle, but to be truthful if you are constently attacked that way then you have a handle for that area that satan can grab. If you pray then and seek the lord you will delivered, howver there must be a desire to change not just say oh well i'm gay and will be celibate and be ok, no, the lord put the desire for the opposite sex to be natural not the lbgt, he must heal and you must want it, it is easy no, but lets not forget if you arent moving toward the lord in this area it will overpower you, and you will fall into that sin, even though i have been delivered for 15 yrs, this sin still has damaged me and i need more healing as i wasnt taught the proper biblical way of a man, and need to be changed. Satan from time to time throws that thought to sleep with men, and through jesus i say no to that thought.

I was always have that weakness to that sin, i must be on guard, i say this as it's like if you are diabetic and healed why eat bad and gain weight,you would avoid the temptation like anyone else. Alcoholics that have been delivered stay away from the bars and drinks to avoid the temptation to return to that vomit.

that's what i'm saying.

jason

 

[jasoncran]

How many of you are friends with a gay person or would be willing to have a friendly relationship with a gay person? Just curious. And for the record we're all "sinners" right?

i do here , lance. while we often disagree on a great deal , we have pm each other. But i sense what you are doing. No one gay should be denied acess to the cross or prayer, but if any man or woman is in sin should they be allowed to lead the church ( ie unrepentent,grossly immoral sin) , no and that the same no matter what type of sin.

do you churches fail in this area , yes , but like any thing with men running its imperfect. see the books of corithians

jason

 

[Lewis]

Dora, it is only one thing to do, leave.

 

[Blazin Bones]

How many of you are friends with a gay person or would be willing to have a friendly relationship with a gay person? Just curious. And for the record we're all "sinners" right?

I've had several "Gay " friends. In High School I sang with 2 in the choir. While he @ college I've worked with them as well. I've even got a gay online friend. So yes I do have friends who claim to be Gay and they all know I think they are living in sin.