We're Getting Our CPL's

[Edward]

I'd get something that will do minimal damage when you shoot yourself, or your wife, or vice-versa, or your next-door neighbor, because all of these scenarios are far more likely than the guns being put to any defensive use. Perhaps a .22 short. I say this as someone who has owned at least 20 handguns and done a fair amount of reloading. Perhaps 20 years ago, I realized it was all utter silliness. It fuels some peculiarly American paranoia.


In your dreams. A drug- or adrenaline-fueled assailant is about as likely to be stopped by a Ping-Pong ball as a .38. Do any police departments still issue .38's? I'd be astonished. If you insist on carrying, at least get a caliber your assailant won't pluck from your hand and pistol-whip you with.

Make up your mind Brother, either something you'll accidentally shoot yourself with or something with a higher probability of stopping a drug crazed lunatic?

If you want something that's guaranteed to stop a druggie on meth...don't get any pistol, carry a rifle, as all pistol cartridges are woefully inadequate.

Go rent some different caliber pistols and get the largest caliber one that you're able to comfortably shoot well, and carry all the time. Ime, women usually won't carry anything bigger than a 38 or 380/9mm.

The 38 Special has killed thousands upon thousands of bad guys over the years. Do you know how remote the chances are that you'll be attacked by a drug/adrenaline filled BG? Very low. Any other person...goes down quick, in fact, in most cases the mere presence of any gun stops the fight even with no shots fired.

This from a lifetime of experience of shooting and carrying guns, and reloading a lot of ammo. Thousands and thousands of them from 38/9mm all the way up to 454 Casull, and casting my own lead bollits. (I can load 50 rounds of 45ACP for cheaper than you can buy a box of 22LR's)

 

[Edward]

Certainly, they can be. But when I was into guns I read an awful lot of technical articles on "stopping power," and the consensus was that a .38 was a poor choice. At least at the time, the consensus was that a body hit with a .45 is like getting hit with an iron basketball and would stop pretty much anyone.

Oh get real. A magazine article? Is the OP out kicking in meth lab doors or living in crackville? Prolly not. Is momma gonna carry that
44 mag every day?

How about another perspective? More valuable than (perhaps) over-sized guns, would be that the husband and wife become a trained team, backing each other up. Even if the wife's was a 22 (that she could comfortably shoot well AND carry), they're better prepared than if they both had 44 mags that they couldn't shoot as well (or even might not be carrying). Larger calibers shoot slower because the recoil means slower shot to shot recovery time. A 9/38 can be shot much faster accurately. Lower recoil means she'll practice more and carry more.

I read a story where a trained Israeli girl took out 5 Taliban with a 22 (ruger mkII)...because she could shoot it fast and accurately.

 

[Edward]

Some random thoughts to keep in mind when considering ones first pistol purchase for defense...

The smaller the gun, the easier it'll be to carry.
The larger the gun, the easier it'll be to shoot accurately.

45 automatics do not kick as much as people say.

The price of the ammo!
(Good 9mm ammo is ridiculous)

Shoot at least 200 rounds of your intended carry ammo through your gun to ensure reliability in your gun, and learn where it prints (shoots to).

 

[Obadiah]

Unfortunately, "drunk, insane or incredibly stupid" is a rather large swath of the population.

And yet what you describe almost never happens in the real world.

At least at the time, the consensus was that a body hit with a .45 is like getting hit with an iron basketball and would stop pretty much anyone.

Yep, this is correct. I was focusing more on the .38 vs 9mm because that's what LAPD switched over to while I was working for them, so I'm more familiar with them.

The .45 is a great weapon for someone who wants to carry one. But I think the OP was a bit concerned about the size and weight, especially for his wife to carry. And there's a lot of wisdom in a husband and wife both having the same caliber. I think a 2" 5 shot .38sp+P is a nice easy to carry gun for a woman and her husband has several options for himself from the 2" five shot to a massive 6" 6 shot if he wants. (I carry both of those.)

 

[KevinK]

Didn't the .38 Special itself come about because its predecessor (whatever that was) lacked the elusive "stopping power"? Of course, since then we got .357 Magnum, and the .38 loaded to +P.

 

[Mike]

Generally, I find myself agreeing with the logic that a guns that my wife and I will be more likely to carry, will be the ones that are right for us. This is true for anything in life. If something is inconvenient to keep with me, I'll take it with me less, and personally, I usually end up rarely taking it with me.

I'm not inclined to choose something with the idea of having the bigger weapon or more lethal one. I expect to never need to pull it, let alone use it. I think there's something to what Obadiah said about the image someone projects and how carrying can impact that.

I'm reading it all, and taking everything in. Good stuff. Thanks!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Yes but you have experience, most dont have that.cops can draw and not shoot. If I have enough range and I know he has a knife I will draw first.if I wait .I'm dead.the 21 ft rule is the reason.

Not a valid comparison. I grew killing rattle snakes, birds, rabbits, coons and other game and nobody taught me some silly rule about twenty-one foot.

 

[th1b.taylor]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

edited reba

 

[th1b.taylor]

LOL. I hear this kind of thing all the time but yet have only seen very rare cases where anything like this has actually happened unless someone was drunk, insane, or incredibly stupid. And don't kid yourself. A .22 or .25 can kill you too. I assisted an emergency room doctor at Los Angeles County General Hospital once as he cut open a victims chest to try to manually pump his heart after he'd been shot in the chest with a .22. What was where his heart used to be looked like nothing more than hamburger meat. And a .22 did that.

I carry 150 grain wad cutters because of anything's ability to splatter them causing minimal damage next door. I'll buy the neighbor a new window of house painting any day rather than to kill an innocent. And though I've never had to use a wad cutter on a man I was sold on the idea for close in by a very old man that promised me that if I only tagged him in the arm that he would spin like one of those old wooden tops we used to play with and that the round would hang right there with him, destroying all the meat and bone the surgeon would need to fix him.

Oh, and those .22 shorts, there is a reason they are favored for execution style murders. As I understand it they can do anything from making a man very angry to grind the brain into cabeza ready to make tacos. I still like rounds that stop when they strike, they are in mine and my wife's .38 snub nose. She's the bonafide detective in our family and has no business on the street with my Ruger .38 on their Bad Boy looking .357 frame. ... Uh, Uh, but tell her I love her!

 

[Runner]

And yet what you describe almost never happens in the real world.

I guess "almost never" is in the eye of the beholder. The following is from the Internet Pathology Laboratory of the Mercer University School of Medicine, http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html. The folks at the School of Medicine are, of course, limp-wristed pantywaists who no self-respecting John Wayne wannabe would want to see on a Green Line, but perhaps their statistics have some validity.

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.
​

There is one statistic of which I'm confident: The chance of my wife or myself accidentally or intentionally shooting ourselves, each other, or a friend or neighbor: Zero.

Yet another statistic: In 66 years of living in Arizona, California, Connecticut and New York, the number of times I have been confronted by a gun or been in a situation where a gun would have been of the slightest use to me: Zero.

I have long felt that survivalists and gun nuts were basically living out as adults the same fantasies we did as 7-year-olds, "playing soldier" and "playing cowboy." But if any of you bag a bad guy and save a theatre full of people, do update this thread and prove me wrong. (Lest I appear a hypocrite, let me clarify that my gun days were when I was living on a remote ranch and had a veritable forest of old vehicles and washing machines at which to plink - at about 50 cents a pop in the case of the .44 magnum.)

 

[jasonc]

Not a valid comparison. I grew killing rattle snakes, birds, rabbits, coons and other game and nobody taught me some silly rule about twenty-one foot.

Is that why cops carry knives as a back up and gun too?

Cops get disarmed sometimes. I train with cops in the martial art I do.ccl license allow for a blade to be used,and stick as in asp,baton and escrima stick.

That's my state.

 

[th1b.taylor]

who no self-respecting John Wayne wannabe would want to see on a Green Line,

Continued jabs will get you nothing! Perhaps you have never sat watch on a Green Line and you, likely, have never manned and OP and trying to be te man the Admins and Mods want me to be I am not the Wannbee you want me to be and Obadiah is not either. Because I was pronounced on my death bed by an idiot doctor at the VA a few years ago, dying because of the Chemical Poisoning that resulted because of my first two Combat tours in Vietnam. Perhaps I was as rude as yourself in my first response but let's both give it up, alright?

keep calling me panty waisted and I willl continue to be a stupid as you exhibit yourself to be but that is uncalled for. It is just as uncalled for as was your first, ill informed response to me that I, in no form, solicited. You are free to dispise, privately, living veterans but you do not have the right to be snotty to anyone, s please, drop the attitude and let's exchange ideas.

 

[Mike]

This is from me the member; not me the mod.

Just a call to all of the participants here. Honestly, I didn't think about the potential for emotional conflicts due to the nature of the topic. My bad. This was an honest request for information, because I've seen members discuss owning firearms in other threads. I'm getting the information I was looking for, but it's understandably evoking strong opinions. If I had thought to start this 24 hours after I did, I wouldn't have started it, considering the events that took place in Florida only hours after. While I don't hold that owning guns through legal means directly leads to such events, they do heighten the tension in dialogue.

In keeping with the purpose of this forum, which is intended for casual conversation, I'd like to encourage everyone to stay casual about it. The Current Events Forum would be a good place to start a thread if you're in for a debate.

Thanks.

 

[jasonc]

Ok. I train in use of my hands and blades .don't care to debate.

 

[JohnDB]

I guess "almost never" is in the eye of the beholder. The following is from the Internet Pathology Laboratory of the Mercer University School of Medicine, http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html. The folks at the School of Medicine are, of course, limp-wristed pantywaists who no self-respecting John Wayne wannabe would want to see on a Green Line, but perhaps their statistics have some validity.

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.
​

There is one statistic of which I'm confident: The chance of my wife or myself accidentally or intentionally shooting ourselves, each other, or a friend or neighbor: Zero.

Yet another statistic: In 66 years of living in Arizona, California, Connecticut and New York, the number of times I have been confronted by a gun or been in a situation where a gun would have been of the slightest use to me: Zero.

I have long felt that survivalists and gun nuts were basically living out as adults the same fantasies we did as 7-year-olds, "playing soldier" and "playing cowboy." But if any of you bag a bad guy and save a theatre full of people, do update this thread and prove me wrong. (Lest I appear a hypocrite, let me clarify that my gun days were when I was living on a remote ranch and had a veritable forest of old vehicles and washing machines at which to plink - at about 50 cents a pop in the case of the .44 magnum.)

These statistics are deliberately warped to show correlation when there is none.

By that I mean the control groups includes those incapable of owning a firearm as well as those owning one illegally.

The real statistics done by non-partisans look vastly different.
And the groups look different.

This poll is one akin to stork migration and live births...where there is a correlating factor (weather) the causation and correlation are vastly different from what is inferred.

 

[Edward]

Ok. I train in use of my hands and blades .don't care to debate.

I know about the 21' rule and think it makes lots of sense.

The idea behind the 21' rule, is to maintain at least 21' between you and an assailant with a knife.
If you're closer than 21', then a guy who's good with a blade can close that distance and stab you before you can react and pull your trigger.
A good rule.

 

[Edward]

I guess "almost never" is in the eye of the beholder. The following is from the Internet Pathology Laboratory of the Mercer University School of Medicine, http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html. The folks at the School of Medicine are, of course, limp-wristed pantywaists who no self-respecting John Wayne wannabe would want to see on a Green Line, but perhaps their statistics have some validity.

The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.
​

There is one statistic of which I'm confident: The chance of my wife or myself accidentally or intentionally shooting ourselves, each other, or a friend or neighbor: Zero.

Yet another statistic: In 66 years of living in Arizona, California, Connecticut and New York, the number of times I have been confronted by a gun or been in a situation where a gun would have been of the slightest use to me: Zero.

I have long felt that survivalists and gun nuts were basically living out as adults the same fantasies we did as 7-year-olds, "playing soldier" and "playing cowboy." But if any of you bag a bad guy and save a theatre full of people, do update this thread and prove me wrong. (Lest I appear a hypocrite, let me clarify that my gun days were when I was living on a remote ranch and had a veritable forest of old vehicles and washing machines at which to plink - at about 50 cents a pop in the case of the .44 magnum.)

I never was one to run my life according to statistics. I grew up with loaded guns all over, and my kids did too. I let them keep loaded handguns in their bedroom at around age 10.

Me and my wife had some fights (gasp), but never involved guns or even the threat of them. My kids had plenty of knock down drag out fights...never even a threat of a weapon...

But I do appreciate your concern about the statistics and shooting family members over the last Twinkie, and commend you for your presence of mind in same. A man's gotta know his limitations...

 

[JohnDB]

Most of the statistics so heavily quoted are biased...

The real ones show that Mike (if his gun isn't stolen by a house theif (including family members) that the chances of him using it in a legal manner are really high. Including his brandishing of his firearm.

His chances of using it to stop a crime with it are low though. Only like 1/15 of his demographic stopping a crime. (Depending upon residential location and work environment)
The actual firing of his weapon to thwart a crime stats are even lower. BUT if he needs to there seems to be only milli seconds for him to make that distinction and act with precision. (Thats one reason you hear about practicing so much)

But in the meantime a firearm is a lot of responsibility. Keeping it out of wrong hands, keeping it in working order. Keeping up with practice. Keeping up with new laws. Keeping up with fresh ammunition. Keeping up with permits. It's a lot of time to meet ALL the necessary requirements of good responsibility.

I'm sure Mike has his reasons for wanting it. (I don't need to know them all)
He isn't a hot head...after all he can keep his cool with the "hot heads" of this forum.

I see him being responsible and reliable with it.

And if I happen to be around him I would feel safer. Might not actually be safer from that bus...but since this is the decade about feelings....my feelings are more important than everyone else anyway. Standing next to Mike is my safe space where I go to hide from unwanted statements that hurt my feelings...after all he is packing heat.

 

[reba]

having our door kicked in my the bad guys with guns was very scary... I have always been thankful my husband did not have to kill anyone. He used his 1894 Winchester to clobber the guy.. the bad guys shotgun went off in the ceiling ...the other 2 grabbed their friend of our floor and took off..

 

[Edward]

I've had several really close calls in my time of carrying a gun. I've always been able to find a way out of the situation without having to shoot anyone...

That's the good thing about keeping weapons for defense... It gives you more time to assess the situation so you can react accordingly.